John Lennon’s Imagine is ‘heart-chilling’, says bishop in Christmas homily

[edwest2]

Thinking about that song. I’ve always loved music and that tune is so
catchy ! Then I noticed exactly what it was saying and decided not
to play it any more. It reminds me of Eve in the garden ’ she saw
that the fruit was good to eat ’ Satan tries to disguise evil by making it
seem to be good . .

Yes. That’s the way to lure people in.

Ed

 

[PPeterson]

I disagree with the argument that lyrical content aside it’s a good song. Imagine is terrible. Anyone who thinks Lennon was a genius, please consider that Marvin Gaye’s “what’s going on” came out the same year. That’s the standard you’re looking at for “social commentary song” at that time and much closer to what “genius” sounds like.

 

[irishpatrick]

Thinking about that song. I’ve always loved music and that tune is so
catchy ! Then I noticed exactly what it was saying and decided not
to play it any more. It reminds me of Eve in the garden ’ she saw
that the fruit was good to eat ’ Satan tries to disguise evil by making it
seem to be good . .

Well said. There are many things that fall into the same category.

 

[simple_soul]

Ok, let’s see if I can articulate myself well enough.

Let’s take the example of an electrician, Bob, who owns his own business. Your A/C unit breaks and you call him. He comes out and gives you an estimate for replacing the unit. You agree and he replaces the unit and has your home comfortable again. Does Bob deserve his wages, the price he quoted you? Yes or no.

I don’t know. Was it a fair price or was he exploiting the situation to try and make a few quick extra bucks?

Now let’s change up this scenario. You call him up, but instead of coming out himself, he sends Joe to do the job. Joe quotes the price and replaces it. Does Bob still deserve to be paid what was quoted? Yes or no.

Again, I don’t know. Was he charging a fair price and paying Joe a fair and just wage or was he exploiting not only the situation of me being with out air conditioning during a record hot heat wave and exploiting Joe by not paying him a fair and just wage so that he is left to live in poverty with no hope of some day being able to have his own business while he makes a few extra bucks to try and get ahead of others?

Now in both instances, there is profit that Bob will make from performing this job for you. Does Bob lose his right to his wages because he sends out an employee to perform the service?

I believe every one is due thier just wage for services rendered.
From what I understand about “making a profit” is that it is a very subjective thing. It can be a good thing and yet it can be a bad thing.
Reading Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol is a good example of what happens when one becomes obsessed with making a profit and what happens when one becomes un-obsessed.
I had heard a quote from some one a while back about how free enterprise had given man the freedom from being exploited and held in slavery and bondage. But now days free enterprise it just another way to exploit people and hold them in bondage.

I find it gut wrenching that beautiful things can be exploited and corrupted.
Government, free enterprise, socialism, conservatism, liberalism, giving to charities, raising money for charities and even religion…because of mankinds lake of love for each other and the what’s in it for me mentality it seems like anything good becomes a tool and justification to control others and/or exploit them.

From what I do know about what Jesus taught us, He was against exploiting others, He cautioned against hording, and that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.

What I understand the governments job to be is that when it sees an injustice it is its job to correct it. So when our government sees how free enterprise is exploiting people and causing inflation to rise so high…no one can get a just wage for services rendered except for those who control the money, it has an obligation to it’s people to correct the injustice.
The problem is that government and free enterprise are filled with corrupt people who are trying to exploit each other for what ever they want. Untill we learn to follow the new commandment that Jesus gave us;

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

John 13:34-35

We will always have a problem with beautiful things like free enterprise being corrupted.
Maybe this was the warning from Our Lady of Fatima. Maybe this was the error that Russia would spread. The corruption of something good.

I know I am barely scratching the surface with all of this but my lack of education makes it dificult for me to articulate well what it is I see and understand. Hopefully it is articulate enough that you have a clearer understanding of where I’m coming from.

I do believe, from the quick study I have done on John Lennon’s life, that he understood this or was beginning to grasp it and that is what he was trying to convey through his music and life. He seemed to have an understanding that “All you need is Love” and I don’t believe he was referring to a romantization of love but a kind of love that requires a bit of self sacrifice.

I believe we Christians refer to it as Sacrificial Love.

 

[simple_soul]

Just because you believe it doesnt make it true.

Here is a quote from Lennon himself about the song. “[Imagine] is anti-religious, anti-nationalistic, anti-conventional, anti-capitalistic… but because it is sugar-coated, it is accepted” And as I said, religious liberals are willing overlook the anti religious so they can go alone with the anti-nationalistic, anti-conventional, anti-capitalistic. Liberals hate profits, unless they are making them.

I really do believe that you should ask yourself why he was so anti-all-the-above.

 

[simple_soul]

So many people like to romanticize the 70’s but there were so many things wrong about it that are rarely discussed and most often “shoved under the rug”.

At the risk of the ire of some, I will relate a very personal memory from both sides of the 70’s. I went into the Army at 17 in the very early 70’s. As I was making my way to my first duty station on a long, long bus trip, I had less than three dollars to last 4 days of bus travel as the Army did not have any room on planes for new recruits. There was a tremendous amount of materiel being moved around as well as seasoned troops at the time. This was during the time that South Vietnam was falling and Israel was in grave danger and many thought we were headed back to war possibly on multiple fronts.

As usual in the Army, there had been a mix-up and my food money/vouchers were lost in the system yet I had to report or be listed as AWOL; such is Army life (or was) at times. I was in a Southern state in a large city, tired, as clean as I could be from cleaning up in restrooms and with only two uniforms and a couple of sets of other wear and I was hungry. I had not eaten in quite a few hours. Anyway, they had a sale on a burger, no fries but a cup of coffee to go with it for a bit less than a dollar. I made the purchase and as the young woman was getting ready to slide it to me, she lifted the top bun and spit on it and put it back on the burger. I simply said, "No thank you ma’am, tipped my cover, shouldered my bag and went to wait on the bus.

While I was sitting there an older gentleman who had bought the same meal came and sat beside me and split his in half and shared it with me, including half his coffee. Time has taken his name from me but the memory remains.

That was not the only rude awakening to what the romanticized 70’s were to someone just trying to serve his country. Though so many like to say things like this never happened, I was hit from behind with bottles, spit at more times than I care to consider and called vile names by people who had no idea who I was other than the fact that I was wearing the uniform of one of their country’s armed services.

Four years in the Army including a year learning to walk again taught me one thing and that is that if you want something or if you believe in something you have to be willing to stand up for it and if necessary fight for it. I went toe to toe with multiple history professors and a couple of political science professors and wound up with them in the Dean’s office with all my work to finally get honest grading but I never backed down and I will not to this day. I am very aware that this country has made mistakes just as some have noted in threads here that the Church has had some issues from time to time. Any institution that has humanity in the loop (or anything programmed by humanity) is likely to have parts that are not exactly pristine examples; it is simply a sad fact of life that we mortals tend to fall away. This does not mean that the Church or this Country needs to be torn down or done away with because there have been those bad examples.

I apologize for the lengthy reply but that song has always raised my hackles because it was aimed at the heart of everything that could make this planet a wonderful place. Christianity in my belief can be equated to pure love. Maybe that is an oversimplification but it is what I feel when I read Scripture. This country is about freedom and though the horrifying evil of slavery existed not just here but across the world at this country’s founding, it was not the foundation of this country as many revisionist historians would want you to believe; read The Federalist Papers and other documents around the framing of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence before you make judgments based on someone whose opinion might just have a bit of a slant to it. The original authors were an amazing group of people of varying religious and social beliefs but they were mortals and therefore made mistakes.

Finally, of course my opinions are slanted for I have total Faith in Almighty God and his only Begotten Son Christ Jesus. I also believe with all my heart in this country though I have many worries about what my grandsons will see in their lifetimes if we continue on the paths we seemingly have chosen as a nation.

If my words have offended anyone then I beg you for your forgiveness and do so with an honest and open heart for I never want to offend anyone on purpose. If my beliefs offend you then we will simply have to disagree for I simply will not waver from my Faith.

I hope you all have a Blessed day!

OAD

Sorry I had to snip for space.

Please be assured that your words didn’t offend me. The actually reminded me of something. I read the Biography of General Douglas McArthur when I was younger. In it General McArthur held a dying soldier and as the soldier lay dying he lamented to the General asking who’s side Washington was on. Reading his Biography gave me some insight into how politics play into and can cause wars. My heart goes out to men and women, who like yourself,bare willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to defend and protect. Because of our corrupt government and politics and policies, more times than not, a lot of you are used and exploited while you keep trying to do the right thing regardless of the corruption.
I believe it is men and women like yourself who suffer the most from the corruption and yet still you carry on.
Thank you so much for you service and I am so very sorry and sickened at how you are treated by some.

May you have a very blessed day too!

 

[zz912]

Ok, let’s see if I can articulate myself well enough.

I don’t know. Was it a fair price or was he exploiting the situation to try and make a few quick extra bucks?

Again, I don’t know. Was he charging a fair price and paying Joe a fair and just wage or was he exploiting not only the situation of me being with out air conditioning during a record hot heat wave and exploiting Joe by not paying him a fair and just wage so that he is left to live in poverty with no hope of some day being able to have his own business while he makes a few extra bucks to try and get ahead of others?

The price was fair because you agreed to it. You’re free to call someone else if you think the price quoted was unfair. You agree to the price. But now you’re coming up with justifications for why you can deny Bob his wages.

I believe every one is due thier just wage for services rendered.

As long as YOU are the one who determines what a “just” wage is, apparently. Would you object if I were in control of the wages you are paid? Do I get to set the wages you are charging for your time?

From what I understand about “making a profit” is that it is a very subjective thing. It can be a good thing and yet it can be a bad thing.

No, it’s not a bad thing. It is a good thing to make a profit. Of course you can go about making a profit in a bad manner. Just as you can go about doing ANY good thing/deed in a bad manner. I can make a profit by going to my job and working, or I can make a profit by robbing a bank. I can make a baby by having loving relations with my wife. I can also make a baby by having an affair. In both instances, the baby is a good thing, but HOW the babies came about is vastly different, one good and the other evil.

Reading Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol is a good example of what happens when one becomes obsessed with making a profit and what happens when one becomes un-obsessed.

And are you now in charge of policing the moral formation of people and their profits?

I had heard a quote from some one a while back about how free enterprise had given man the freedom from being exploited and held in slavery and bondage. But now days free enterprise it just another way to exploit people and hold them in bondage.

Nonsense. Any bondage you feel people are falling into is a result of LESS free enterprise. Our society has become less and less free over the last 50 years.

I find it gut wrenching that beautiful things can be exploited and corrupted.
Government, free enterprise, socialism, conservatism, liberalism, giving to charities, raising money for charities and even religion…because of mankinds lake of love for each other and the what’s in it for me mentality it seems like anything good becomes a tool and justification to control others and/or exploit them.

Socialism is not beautiful. It is evil. It has been condemned by the Catholic Church as evil.

From what I do know about what Jesus taught us, He was against exploiting others, He cautioned against hording, and that we should render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s.

So you wish to use Caesar to take from those you think are hording? Where did you get such moral authority?

What I understand the governments job to be is that when it sees an injustice it is its job to correct it. So when our government sees how free enterprise is exploiting people and causing inflation to rise so high…no one can get a just wage for services rendered except for those who control the money, it has an obligation to it’s people to correct the injustice.

This is fantasy pablum. The govt is usually the one doing the exploiting. The government should limit how much power and control it has, and try to keep an even playing field and stable legal environment. It shouldn’t be in the business of correcting every injustice or evil. You are abdicating your Christian duty to care for others and promoting the idea the govt should take your place.

The problem is that government and free enterprise are filled with corrupt people who are trying to exploit each other for what ever they want. Untill we learn to follow the new commandment that Jesus gave us;

Government in particular attracts those who are corrupt, because it is the only entity that gets to enforce its will with guns.

Remember this, even the biggest corporations don’t have power to corner the market on wages. If Walmart wants to hire me for less than I believe I am worth, I am free to walk across the street to Target to see if they think I’m worth more. And then go to Bob’s A/C company and see what he will pay me. And then to Harry’s Auto, then John’s Diner, etc, etc, etc.

I do believe, from the quick study I have done on John Lennon’s life, that he understood this or was beginning to grasp it and that is what he was trying to convey through his music and life. He seemed to have an understanding that “All you need is Love” and I don’t believe he was referring to a romantization of love but a kind of love that requires a bit of self sacrifice.

I believe we Christians refer to it as Sacrificial Love.

I don’t think he understood love at all. He seemed to buy in to the common hippie idea of the day that if we’re just nice, then peace will flow everywhere. It comes through in his nauseating and awful song “Happy Xmas”. Especially the lyric “war is over if you want it”. It’s stupid and pedantic. No, war is NOT over just because you want it. War is over when one side wins. And no amount of happy feelings by you will make bad people in the world stop wanting to kill you. Only guns aimed right back at them will do that.

 

[simple_soul]

The price was fair because you agreed to it. You’re free to call someone else if you think the price quoted was unfair. You agree to the price. But now you’re coming up with justifications for why you can deny Bob his wages.

As long as YOU are the one who determines what a “just” wage is, apparently. Would you object if I were in control of the wages you are paid? Do I get to set the wages you are charging for your time?

No, it’s not a bad thing. It is a good thing to make a profit. Of course you can go about making a profit in a bad manner. Just as you can go about doing ANY good thing/deed in a bad manner. I can make a profit by going to my job and working, or I can make a profit by robbing a bank. I can make a baby by having loving relations with my wife. I can also make a baby by having an affair. In both instances, the baby is a good thing, but HOW the babies came about is vastly different, one good and the other evil.

And are you now in charge of policing the moral formation of people and their profits?

Nonsense. Any bondage you feel people are falling into is a result of LESS free enterprise. Our society has become less and less free over the last 50 years.

Socialism is not beautiful. It is evil. It has been condemned by the Catholic Church as evil.

So you wish to use Caesar to take from those you think are hording? Where did you get such moral authority?

This is fantasy pablum. The govt is usually the one doing the exploiting. The government should limit how much power and control it has, and try to keep an even playing field and stable legal environment. It shouldn’t be in the business of correcting every injustice or evil. You are abdicating your Christian duty to care for others and promoting the idea the govt should take your place.

Government in particular attracts those who are corrupt, because it is the only entity that gets to enforce its will with guns.

Remember this, even the biggest corporations don’t have power to corner the market on wages. If Walmart wants to hire me for less than I believe I am worth, I am free to walk across the street to Target to see if they think I’m worth more. And then go to Bob’s A/C company and see what he will pay me. And then to Harry’s Auto, then John’s Diner, etc, etc, etc.

I don’t think he understood love at all. He seemed to buy in to the common hippie idea of the day that if we’re just nice, then peace will flow everywhere. It comes through in his nauseating and awful song “Happy Xmas”. Especially the lyric “war is over if you want it”. It’s stupid and pedantic. No, war is NOT over just because you want it. War is over when one side wins. And no amount of happy feelings by you will make bad people in the world stop wanting to kill you. Only guns aimed right back at them will do that.

Well now,not seems I may not have been as articulate as I could have been in some of what I said. I would try to go back and clarify but your response has so many accusations and assumptions about me and what I am trying to say that I don’t even know where to begin with trying to clarify or address them. So will have to pass on even trying. You are entitled to your opinion about John Lennon as I am entitled to mine. As far as Comunism being condemned by the Church I guess I’ll have to learn more about it. But from what I remember of debates I have followed in the past it’s not such a clear cut blanked condemnation of it.

Anyway I have to get going…still very busy so don’t know when or if I’ll be able to follow this thread anymore.

Have a wonderful and blessed evening.

 

[simple_soul]

Well now,not seems I may not have been as articulate as I could have been in some of what I said. I would try to go back and clarify but your response has so many accusations and assumptions about me and what I am trying to say that I don’t even know where to begin with trying to clarify or address them. So will have to pass on even trying. You are entitled to your opinion about John Lennon as I am entitled to mine. As far as Comunism being condemned by the Church I guess I’ll have to learn more about it. But from what I remember of debates I have followed in the past it’s not such a clear cut blanked condemnation of it.

Anyway I have to get going…still very busy so don’t know when or if I’ll be able to follow this thread anymore.

Have a wonderful and blessed evening.

Sorry, ment to say “socialism” not “communism.”

 

[zz912]

As far as Comunism being condemned by the Church I guess I’ll have to learn more about it. But from what I remember of debates I have followed in the past it’s not such a clear cut blanked condemnation of it.

ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/L13APOST.HTM

For, "the church of the living God, which is the pillar and ground of truth,"6 hands down those doctrines and precepts whose special object is the safety and peace of society and the uprooting of the evil growth of socialism.

1. For, indeed, although the socialists, stealing the very Gospel itself with a view to deceive more easily the unwary, have been accustomed to distort it so as to suit their own purposes, nevertheless so great is the difference between their depraved teachings and the most pure doctrine of Christ that none greater could exist: “for what participation hath justice with injustice or what fellowship hath light with darkness?”

And since they know that the Church of Christ has such power to ward off the plague of socialism as cannot be found in human laws, in the mandates of magistrates, or in the force of armies, let them restore that Church to the condition and liberty in which she may exert her healing force for the benefit of all society.

There is much more at the link.