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pianistclare
Guest
LOL. Youāre a punny guy!
I know I was just pontificatingā¦
Thread officially de-railedā¦
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AnneElizabeth
Guest
I canāt seem to find the information about St. Catherine that I went by, so I have to concur youāve got me thereā¦ However, she did speak up and gave the Pope was was on her mind, and in that Iām saying one should speak if they have concerned. You just donāt hand over your brain on a platter to the Pope and nod and agree with everything he says without any thought to it. She found the Pope doing something wrong, so she spoke. Thatās my point.
Extreme poverty is found in many of those who were canonnized very quickly. Thatās my point.
Again, you make a judgement about me- Where did I state that I didnāt believe the Pope was in Heaven? I can be against canonizing someone quickly and still think the soul is in Heaven. Thatās what I mean by judging. Its like you think you know me and can make leaps of cognition into reading who I am and what I stand for.
Code:
What is the difference between judging (declaring something to be absolutely true) and having reservations? My beef here in this thread is over the bashing of the OP's reservations and opinions... I'm stating no one answered his question of WHY, instead he got a barrage of, seemingly, insults. That's fanaticism. That's not faith. And its wrong. Enthusiasm is something separate, its good, but not like this.
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Bruised_Reed
Guest
I really donāt know what you mean by this.
Canonization is the church formally announcing that the person is in Heaven. If you believe he is in heaven I donāt understand why you think this is too quick.
Why is JPII going to be declared a saint? This is my answer to you and the OP:
Because he lived a life of heroic holiness. It doesnāt mean he didnāt sin (itās often said he went to confession weekly - not sure if thatās exactly true) or that he didnāt make mistakes. But his was faithful to the teachings of the church. He has lived the gospel since he was a child and he practiced his faith when it could have gotten him killed. The process of canonization is there to examine the life of the person to know with certainty he or she lived a holy life.
Specifically to treeman: You do know that JPII spoke several languages fluently but that doesnāt mean he could make a speech before a crowd without a little help sometimes. You want him to just speak to you, well if you had met him personally he would have done just that if he spoke whatever language you speak.
And I believe the Holy Spirit was with him in a powerful way. Have you ever heard stories about how crowds would react to him. People would begin crying as he would enter a stadium. One Catholic speaker/writer shared an experience talking to a cameraman at one of these events and indicated the cameraman wasnāt excited to see the Pope; it was not a big deal to him. Later when the Pope was inside the stadium, the Catholic apologist looked over at the camera operator and he was standing in front of his camera crying. Why? Why did people often cry when they encountered JPII? I believe that they are moved by Godās love for us that the late Pope radiated to everyone in attendance and they are overwhelmed by the feeling. Iāve felt that in other situations and that is what I compare it to.
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fighter101
Guest
first , i love this forum.
i should take a look at his writings. surely though, theyāre not the brilliance of someone like desales or the spriitual mortal combat book, or like augustines commentaries on the gospel, especially johnās gospel, which are packed with non-human like understanding. but i must seeā¦
st frances did miracles in this life. and i think this is important, because st. Paul did say that the kingdom of God is a matter of power , and not mere speech.
if he is a saint, if not for his illness, he never would have been one in my opinion, because sufferring brings a person close to God. āsufferring begets hopeā¦ā and he would have had too much luxury to enjoy , if not for his illness. the saints tell us that poverty leads to perfection. . .
i should take a look at his writings. surely though, theyāre not the brilliance of someone like desales or the spriitual mortal combat book, or like augustines commentaries on the gospel, especially johnās gospel, which are packed with non-human like understanding. but i must seeā¦
st frances did miracles in this life. and i think this is important, because st. Paul did say that the kingdom of God is a matter of power , and not mere speech.
if he is a saint, if not for his illness, he never would have been one in my opinion, because sufferring brings a person close to God. āsufferring begets hopeā¦ā and he would have had too much luxury to enjoy , if not for his illness. the saints tell us that poverty leads to perfection. . .
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fighter101
Guest
and what do you think of the incident when he kissed the koran? that shouldnāt stop him though from being a saint though, becuase all saints make mistakes in their past (assuming it was a mistake). the koran is another kind of Gospel, one where Judas gets crucified instead of Jesus , who never dies on the cross.
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LongingSoul
Guest
There is a book called āWhy he is a Saint - The true story of John Paul IIā written by Slawomir Oder, a Vatican insider and a journalist Savario Gaeta of the Catholic weekly Christian Family which reveals the austere life of John Paul II within the Vatican walls.
He used to self flagellate (not to the point of self abuse) to empathise with Christās scourging and he slept on the hard floor of his bedroom each night, although he messed his bed so that it seemed to others that he had slept there. When he died, it was discovered that his apartment was the same as it has been in the 70ās when he moved in. He still had nothing but a small black and white TV on a bench in the kitchen and the kitchen utensils and appliances left by the last Pope. The āwealthā of the Vatican had no hold over him whatsoever.
May his holy life inspire the generations to come to be counter cultural within an environment of excess and self indulgence that seek to destroy the soul.
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hu324b
Guest
I donāt see anywhere in my post where I have given him full credit for Polands seperation from the USSR, This isnāt about Poland.
I think its a perfect day to make him a Saint with his death falling on Divine Mercy Sunday this year.
I also want to bring up Blessed John the 23 - that happens to be the name of our Church - the only Catholic Church not named after a Saint as far as I know - its a big deal to us because finally we can call our Church St John the 23 after well over 40 years - a lot of people from my Church are in Rome to celebrate not to mention our celebration here in Winnipeg at our St Maryās cathedral and of course our Church - the Bishop is coming this weekend to celebrate mass with us,
I guess some might not want him to be called a Saint either.
I say its about time!
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
I donāt think much about it. What do you think of the incident where Mary saved his life?
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treeman39
Guest
i had no idea he was going to get cannonized so soon when i wrote the original post. hope i didnāt offend anyone out there. the timing was pure coincidence. just asking questions and hoping to get good answers.
he was a man of intense prayer and kindness and heroic virtue. purity too , and all these things together are enough to be elevated. i donāt know though of any miracles that he worked while on the earth. still, i trust the church knows what itās doing.
he was a man of intense prayer and kindness and heroic virtue. purity too , and all these things together are enough to be elevated. i donāt know though of any miracles that he worked while on the earth. still, i trust the church knows what itās doing.
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pianistclare
Guest
Miracles are attributed to intercessory prayers. Prayers asking for JPās intercession after his death.
Jesus performed miracles on earth.
God bless.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Some of the information in this post contradicts with your first post.
So, either you donāt know too much about the subject. (which is perfectly fine)
Or you are backing away from the tone of the first post.
JPII is a saint. You admitted as much in your first post. A saint need work zero miracles while on earth. that is not one of the requirements.
I am concerned that you felt informed enough to comment on his earthy pontificate in a negative manner but then were not aware of the biggest news int he world this weekendā¦
BUT
Is exactly what you should do.
In the words made most famous by Jesus and Echoed many times by SAINT JPII
āBe not afraid!ā
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NCMickey
Guest
Seriously ? The many incorrect, ignorant, and downright silly reasons some of the folks on this Forum have given for the āsainthoodā of the most recent two (2) Popes is astonishing. This is not meant to begin an argument within the thread, itās simply my observation.
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Della
Guest
The plain reason is that the Church investigated their lives and found in them heroic holiness and witnesses to Christ. Thatās it, really. They didnāt have to be right about everything or make the best decisions. Holiness is not based on such things. They were faithful witnesses to Christ who gave their lives for him. Nothing more is really needed. This is why the Church celebrates All Saints Dayāto honor all who met this criteria but who are unknown to the world at large. Those the Church declares saints have been investigated for the honor, thatās the only difference.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Seems that you agree that Pope Benedict said in ECCLESIA IN MEDIO ORIENTE, āReligious freedom is the pinnacle of all other freedoms. It is a sacred and inalienable right.ā
But than you said that this teaching of the Pope of the Catholic Church pertains to ALL except āCatholics especially faithful Catholicsā.
Why would you think/believe that the Pope is a āteacherā of ALL except for those that he is the Pope of or at least those that you consider āCatholics especially faithful Catholicsā?
Seeing as you said, āThis does not apply to what faithful Catholics are to assent to as faithful Catholics.ā
Some of us think/believe that we have a āconscienceā somewhere inside of us rather than written in a book by others and it seems as if he who was Pope Benedict XVI is one of those who believes that God gave each of us a āconscienceā and that we are to use this God-given āconscienceā.
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CatholicRaven
Guest
How long should the process take?
āAs long as it takes to be absolutely sureā¦ā
The Church is absolutely sure, and it took as long as it took. So whatās the problem?
āAs long as it takes to be absolutely sureā¦ā
The Church is absolutely sure, and it took as long as it took. So whatās the problem?
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mdgspencer
Guest
You ask a good question. Perhaps if you know a bit more about him, it will help. I find this article about Pope John Paul very informativeāat www.catholicworldreport.com/Item/3079/john_paul_ii_and_the_blessed_sacrament.aspx.
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Della
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I stand by what I wrote. Conscience is not a license to believe whatever we like in matters of faith and morals. And popes are teachers to the world, but sometimes, like all of us, they send mixed messages or can be misunderstood or misquoted. This in no way makes a dent in their holiness and witness to Christ. All Catholics are bound to uphold the teachings of the Church which they promised to do at their confirmation. What PBXIII was talking about is forcing beliefs on others, but when we, of our own free will say that we will uphold all the teachings of the Church we must do so. If we have doubts we should talk to our confessors about those.
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AnneElizabeth
Guest
Whoaā¦ hold it right thereā¦ If that were true, then of what use does the church have teaching and warning against giving scandal. ??? Is there a rule that says that the higher ups are untouchable and above Godās law?
If certain persons gave scandal, and the church cleared them of it in their searching for proof they are saints, then the church authorities OWE IT to the church people the reasons why what people thought was scandal was not. Their names should be cleared of those scandals with great effort providing and citing evidence so that there is no question of holiness and the fears of scandal can be laid to rest. That is what a caring person does because Truth matters to one who cares.
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Della
Guest
I wrote nothing about anyone causing āscandalsā of any kind.
I wrote, and rightly too, that popes are people who can be wrong about some issues and make poor decisions in their own opinion or their personal actions. If you think they canāt then you are the one elevating them to the status of āabove Godās law.ā Truth is not defined by hearsay or what I want to believe about another person. Nor are popes infallible in everything they say and doāand they can sin, as well. They are fallen human beings just like the rest of us. As far as I can tell, no modern pope has caused real scandal, rather some people want to make some things said and done by them into scandals by giving the popesā words and actions more attention than they are due. The popesā infallibility extends to pronouncements about faith and morals within a very narrow defintion. This is a protection against heresy not a privilege granting the popesā personal indefectability. The Church has researched and investigated the lives of all those she has declared saints. This does not mean that they found them without sin, for no one is without sin, but there were no grave sins when they died nor any viable scandals against their witness for Christ when they died. Some people see scandals in everything another person does. Is that to be the standard of truth? I sure hope not for no one can live up to such a standard. Even Jesus caused scandal in those who opposed himāis he to be denied the status of holy because of that? Certainly not.- Status