John the Baptist born without original sin?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Harsalter
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hellisreal said:
This may be shocking news to a convert. As I read the OP again, I see the actual palpable horror of the “news” of this.

I think the OP may consider posting this in the Eastern Orthodoxy forum and you may find that its old news.😉
Click to expand...
We (Easterners) have discussed this before in-depth- check the archives…
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Yes that is correct. It is not dogma, but is Sacred Tradition held in both the Catholic East and West, I’m not sure about the Orthodox. It is also held I believe that two Old Testament Saints also were Sanctified before birth. Keeping in mind this was all under the Old Covenent.
Click to expand...
Orthodox believe St. John the Baptist was purified by his encounter with Christ (in the womb). Remember, though, that Orthodox do not accept the teaching of “Original Sin” strictly speaking…

Prayers and Petitions,
Alexius:cool:
 
Ok, so the list of sinless human beings now extends to Mary, John, John’s parents, Jeremiah…? :rolleyes: Are we missing anybody else? Maybe we need to translate “all have sinned” to mean “all*…except Mary, John, John’s parent, Jeremiah, little babies, etc*…have sinned.” All these sinless people running around…that certainly hasn’t been my experience in this world of woe.

Can somebody tell me–with authority–whether the Catholic Church has dogmatically taught whether any human being other than Mary (and Jesus) were without sin? If I convert to the Catholic Church, am I going to be required as a matter of faith to believe that all of these other folks didn’t sin either? I’m serious here…
 
Any of you guys ever here the scripture…
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God???

I can get it if you want…👍
 
rr1213 said:
Ok, so the list of sinless human beings now extends to Mary, John, John’s parents, Jeremiah…? :rolleyes: Are we missing anybody else? Maybe we need to translate “all have sinned” to mean “all*…except Mary, John, John’s parent, Jeremiah, little babies, etc*…have sinned.” All these sinless people running around…that certainly hasn’t been my experience in this world of woe.

Can somebody tell me–with authority–whether the Catholic Church has dogmatically taught whether any human being other than Mary (and Jesus) were without sin? If I convert to the Catholic Church, am I going to be required as a matter of faith to believe that all of these other folks didn’t sin either? I’m serious here…
Click to expand...
Joey Warren has addressed this issue to my satisfaction.🙂

I think I will track his post for you.😉
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Any of you guys ever here the scripture…
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God???

I can get it if you want…👍
Click to expand...
You mean Jesus sinned? Where is that in Scripture? Oh wait, all have sinned, must mean Jesus also since He is human also. Or is “all” in context to the epistle it is written, the Romans I believe? All of those to whom this is written, not of course Jesus since He was not in the audience of the epistle.
 
Tom said:
You mean Jesus sinned? Where is that in Scripture? Oh wait, all have sinned, must mean Jesus also since He is human also. Or is “all” in context to the epistle it is written, the Romans I believe? All of those to whom this is written, not of course Jesus since He was not in the audience of the epistle.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. The difference is that there is explicit Scriptural support outside of this verse that, in fact, Jesus was absolutely without sin. So Jesus is the understood exception. In contrast, there is not explicit Scriptural support for the assertion that anyone else other than Jesus was without sin, merely inferences at best that the Catholic Church has dogmatized.
 
Alexius said:
We (Easterners) have discussed this before in-depth- check the archives…

Hey wait a minute, I did not say you did not! I just told them to go to the source and ask there!🙂
Orthodox believe St. John the Baptist was purified by his encounter with Christ (in the womb). Remember, though, that Orthodox do not accept the teaching of “Original Sin” strictly speaking…
Click to expand...
Agreed!

But, I think I am also well within my faith (not going against it)to believe he was sinless all his life. And in doing so, taking nothing away from Christ, Mary or anyone else!😉

I am always watching the current threads in your forum.😃

Good stuff there.
Click to expand...
 
Tom said:
You mean Jesus sinned? Where is that in Scripture? Oh wait, all have sinned, must mean Jesus also since He is human also. Or is “all” in context to the epistle it is written, the Romans I believe? All of those to whom this is written, not of course Jesus since He was not in the audience of the epistle. .
Click to expand...
Is Jesus God Tom?

LIKE RR said…
rr1213 said:
Ridiculous. The difference is that there is explicit Scriptural support outside of this verse that, in fact, Jesus was absolutely without sin. So Jesus is the understood exception. In contrast, there is not explicit Scriptural support for the assertion that anyone else other than Jesus was without sin, merely inferences at best that the Catholic Church has dogmatized.
Click to expand...
spot on!
 
:sleep: :sleep: :yawn:

I still dont see how literalists can hang their hat on “all” when looking at the greek, it just dont cut it.
 
rr1213 said:
Ridiculous. The difference is that there is explicit Scriptural support outside of this verse that, in fact, Jesus was absolutely without sin. So Jesus is the understood exception. In contrast, there is not explicit Scriptural support for the assertion that anyone else other than Jesus was without sin, merely inferences at best that the Catholic Church has dogmatized.
Click to expand...
RR, in answer to your question. No, the Church only teaches that Jesus and Mary are sinless. I don’t think the Church either denies or affirms the sinlessness of John. I really don’t think it’s important. It’s just us guys conversing amongs one another.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Is Jesus God Tom?

LIKE RR said…
spot on!
Click to expand...
Simon, My Brother!!!

How have you been? Good to see that you are lurking around to keep us Catholics in check!!!

Love ya’, man, and keep up the faith!!!

P.S. Keep me informed on your missionary goals. I admire your zeal, my friend!
 
rr1213 said:
Ridiculous. The difference is that there is explicit Scriptural support outside of this verse that, in fact, Jesus was absolutely without sin. So Jesus is the understood exception. In contrast, there is not explicit Scriptural support for the assertion that anyone else other than Jesus was without sin, merely inferences at best that the Catholic Church has dogmatized.
Click to expand...
There are either exceptions to “all” or there are not exceptions. The “all” in this verse is taken from a letter to a particular church, it is within this group that the “all” applies. I fully agree that the “all” referred to here does not include every individual in the world, simply all of this church at Rome. It is taking the verse completely out of context that one would argue that Mary, who was not a member of the intended audience, must be included in the “all”. Kept in context there is no conflict.
 
myfavoritmartin said:
Is Jesus God Tom?

LIKE RR said…
spot on!
Click to expand...
As for the Scriptural support of Jesus being God and of course sinless, I totally agree, but rather than saying this is the only exception, which is not supported in Scripture, I argue that the “all” does not apply to every individual person on earth. in fact when read within its’ intended context, it only means all of the Christians of the Roman church. When kept in its context there is no contradiction to Scripture saying Jesus is indeed sinless. Nor that Mary was sinless. It is only taking Romans out of context that you argue Mary must have sinned.
 
Tom said:
There are either exceptions to “all” or there are not exceptions. The “all” in this verse is taken from a letter to a particular church, it is within this group that the “all” applies. I fully agree that the “all” referred to here does not include every individual in the world, simply all of this church at Rome. It is taking the verse completely out of context that one would argue that Mary, who was not a member of the intended audience, must be included in the “all”. Kept in context there is no conflict.
Click to expand...
Frankly, that’s tortured.
 
NotWorthy said:
Simon, My Brother!!!

How have you been? Good to see that you are lurking around to keep us Catholics in check!!!

Love ya’, man, and keep up the faith!!!

P.S. Keep me informed on your missionary goals. I admire your zeal, my friend!
Click to expand...
Wanted to pop in for a minute, nice to see ya my friend. Lotsa big news shaking in my life, I’ll drop ya an email.

Simon
 
rr1213 said:
Frankly, that’s tortured.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your opinion, I’d just like to know exactly how it’s “tortured”? This is from an epistle to the church at Rome is it not? It is addressed to them and discusses specifically that church and problems at that church? So what’s so “tortured” in keeping it within that context? You mentioned Scripture which says Jesus never sinned, good, if we read “all” from Romans to mean every individual in the world, then there is a conflict in Scripture. Either Jesus sinned, which we know is ridiculous, or the “all” from Romans doesn’t mean “all” in the world. If it doesn’t mean “all” in the world what does it mean? Put it back in its original and intended context, all of the church at Rome. Any conflict now? Nope. Each is quite correct.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top