Joseph Smith's changing doctrine of deity

[why_me]

I do not deny any Mormon’s motives, or beliefs. I respect them for their attempts, but as much as they believe to be true has been proven otherwise. Much proof has been given by Christians with use of scripture alone. There has been no need for “another gospel” for substantiation of a “raison d’etre”. As I have mentioned in a previous post, we heed the words of Paul and the Apostles about another gospel, even if preached by angels, and do not mis-interpret scripture to fit our situation(s), as does the LDS.

Then also there’s the matter of historical, anthropological, geneological, paleoentological, etc. proof to substantiate the claims of not only Joseph Smith, et al, but also the Book of Mormon and other LDS literature.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

And yet, the mormons use scripture also to prove their points. And this is one problem of christianity: the scriptures are vague and can be interpretated in various of ways. All religion depends on faith and not hard evidence. If there were conclusive proof for the book of mormon, there would be no need for faith because we would have evidence. And you would then be a mormon but for all the wrong reasons because it would be based on evidence that god actually exists and his church is the mormon church.

But faith does not work that way and the new testament warns christians about seeking after evidence. During Paul’s time, paganism was ripe. And many christians were also following false teachers. Thus, Paul’s warning.

And the last time I looked there was no hard evidence that jesus was who the bible claims him to be. Now the mormons also have the book of mormon which they refer to as the second witness to christ. But…no hard evidence from conclusive sources that jesus is who he is claimed to be in the bible.

 

[Answersplease]

I made a mistake in my post #324 on this thread: “Joseph Smith’s changing doctrine of deity”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6616586&postcount=324

The following is a mistake and I was tired and not paying enough attention and forgot to add the word “less” before the word “inclined”.

“If we all put out the truth about Mormonism, they people who come to these forums will be inclined to be converted to Mormonism. And perhaps even a few Mormons might be enlightened and start to question Mormonism.”

It should have been:

“If we all put out the truth about Mormonism, THE people who come to these forums will be LESS inclined to be converted to Mormonism. And perhaps even a few Mormons might be enlightened and start to question Mormonism.”

I am sorry for the mistake.

I’ve asked a moderator to edit or delete the post

Sincerely,
Answersplease

 

[why_me]

It should have been:

“If we all put out the truth about Mormonism, THE people who come to these forums will be LESS inclined to be converted to Mormonism. And perhaps even a few Mormons might be enlightened and start to question Mormonism.”

I am sorry for the mistake.

I’ve asked a moderator to edit or delete the post

Sincerely,
Answersplease

And what is the truth about mormonism? Lets see: first, the mormons are wonderful people by and large who believe in god and his son jesus christ. Second, the world is a better place because there are mormons in it. Third, mormons have achieved much respect from people from other faiths, including the catholic faith.

And so, I say, thank god there are mormons. But then again, I can say the same for other religious groupings where people are believing in god and making this world a better place.

Such is the three or four truths about mormonism.

 

[Javl]

And yet, the mormons use scripture also to prove their points. And this is one problem of christianity: the scriptures are vague and can be interpretated in various of ways. All religion depends on faith and not hard evidence. If there were conclusive proof for the book of mormon, there would be no need for faith because we would have evidence. And you would then be a mormon but for all the wrong reasons because it would be based on evidence that god actually exists and his church is the mormon church.

Sorry, but the scriptures are not vague, they are forthright and plain. Our God does not muddle things up. It is those that mis-interpret the scriptures that call them vague and interpret them to suit their purpose.

And yes, religion does depend upon faith and also hard evidence. The scriptures have been proven conclusively to be historically accurate, etc., whereas the BOM has not.

But faith does not work that way and the new testament warns christians about seeking after evidence. During Paul’s time, paganism was ripe. And many christians were also following false teachers. Thus, Paul’s warning.

Scripture has said to test all things to see if it is from God. The BOM and other LDS literature has been tested and has proven to be wanting and not to be of God. Therefore we take heed of Paul’s warning.

And the last time I looked there was no hard evidence that jesus was who the bible claims him to be. Now the mormons also have the book of mormon which they refer to as the second witness to christ. But…no hard evidence from conclusive sources that
jesus is who he is claimed to be in the bible.

I don’t know what Bible you are using, but my Bible and just about every Bible I have ever read, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, has proven that Jesus is the Son of God, and God, the second person of the Holy Trinity. For if the Bible(s) did not have irrefutable evidence about Jesus being God, we would in no way follow Jesus, call ourselves Christians, or even consider Him at all. Now since the Bible provides ample evidence, we need no other source for proof, or a “second witness”. Mormonism, in this respect, is just about the same as Christian Science, Jehovahs Witnesses, Unitarianism, and all those other so-called Christian religions who deny, refuse to accept, or admit to, the Biblical evidence presented. All this so that they can legitimize their “raison d’etre”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[mmsiciliana]

The belief that Adam is Michael, the archangel who opposed Satan and supported Christ (Jehovah) in the pre-mortal world where we all lived, and will be the Ancient of Days prophesied by Daniel, who will sit in judgment over his posterity, is of course not going to be believed by Catholics who believe and teach that the Ancient of Days is God the Father. (What’s interesting is that the Ancient of Days obviously has a resurrected body when he appears among the people gathered as described in the Book of Daniel, so I don’t understand how the Catholic theologians put that together in their minds.)

A contrasting belief about the judgment, but which contains an element of truth, is that Peter is the gate-keeper to heaven. But we know “the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel, and He employeth no servant there.” The ultimate authority for judgment rests with Christ, who suffered the atonement so that people can gain the grace necessary to be judged without having to carry their own sins with them to judgment day. Yet Peter and the twelve apostles (less Judas Iscariot), will certainly have a role in helping to judge, as will the Ancient of Days, Adam who is Michael the Archangel, who fought so valiantly in the pre-mortal world and who believes fervently in the ability of his posterity to rally around Christ and live by His teachings.

No, we do not “know” “the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel and He employeth no servant there.” That’s in the so-called “Scriptures” that Joseph Smith made up. However, you are correct that the ultimate authority for judgment rests with Christ, because Christ will judge all human beings at the end of time.

Human beings, such as Adam, do not become angels. Human beings do not become gods. Human beings remain human beings, just like dogs remain dogs and do not become wolves and cats remain cats and do not become tigers. Jesus is God and always has been and always will be, as the Father is God and always has been and always will be and as the Holy Spirit is God and always has been and always will be, but human beings, and Satan are not gods and never will be and never could be. Michel the Archangel, since his creation, was always an angel and always will be, and Satan, since his creation, was always an angel and always will be a (fallen) angel.

 

[AtticusFinch]

The belief that Adam is Michael, the archangel who opposed Satan and supported Christ (Jehovah) in the pre-mortal world where we all lived, and will be the Ancient of Days prophesied by Daniel, who will sit in judgment over his posterity, is of course not going to be believed by Catholics who believe and teach that the Ancient of Days is God the Father. (What’s interesting is that the Ancient of Days obviously has a resurrected body when he appears among the people gathered as described in the Book of Daniel, so I don’t understand how the Catholic theologians put that together in their minds.)

A contrasting belief about the judgment, but which contains an element of truth, is that Peter is the gate-keeper to heaven. But we know “the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel, and He employeth no servant there.” The ultimate authority for judgment rests with Christ, who suffered the atonement so that people can gain the grace necessary to be judged without having to carry their own sins with them to judgment day. Yet Peter and the twelve apostles (less Judas Iscariot), will certainly have a role in helping to judge, as will the Ancient of Days, Adam who is Michael the Archangel, who fought so valiantly in the pre-mortal world and who believes fervently in the ability of his posterity to rally around Christ and live by His teachings.

BY taught that Adam was God…the ONLY God with whom we have anything to do. Adam is God. By taught it as doctrine. Deny it, water it down, whitewash it, do whatever you wish, but your LDS prophet who advocate killing also taught that Adam was the only God we needed.

 

[evanfaust]

What I have never understood, and will probably never understand, is how informed, knowledgable, intelligent people, such as some of these LDS posters, can accept and truly believe such drivel and obvious lies as promulgated by Joseph Smith and Mormon
“theology”. Mormonism has been proven false so many times and yet these people refuse to investigate with an open mind to find out for themselves the real truth.

The same goes for Catholicism…After one reads the history and the doctrines of the Catholic Church, I wonder the same thing.

As far investigating with an open mind, I have done that for more than two decades. I have participated in many forums, includind Jewish, Protestants, Muslims and now Catholics. I have debated in English as well as in Portuguese. I have also read most anti Mormon material that circulates out there. However, I have found nothing that have shaken my faith and belief.

I was born in the Catholic Church and remained in it till 21. At that time I did some research and embraced Mormonism.

 

[evanfaust]

evanfaust - Please be specific about who in the succession of priests/popes/bishops etc in the Catholic Church was in apostasy. Also, who was/is like Judas? Exactly where was the line of authority broken? Can you give names and dates?

Aren’t all Mormon men priests in the Mormon religion? Are they perfect? If a Mormon man who is practicing his faith on the outside, but is not sure if his religion is true, is he apostate?
What about the “devout” Mormon man (returned missionary, etc) that drinks alcohol when he’s out of town but then plays the part when he’s home? What about devout Mormons who con money out of fellow church members?

Seems to me if we are judging churches based on their priests, then Mormonism is in apostasy.

lax16,

There is no one like Judas, but I gave you that example to ilustrate a point of doctrine, which makes a lot of sense. The apostasy was going on even during the times of the apostles. The evidence is abundant. The Apostles warned the saints time and time again. Even the Lord talks about a restoratiion. How can the Lord and Apostles talk about restoration of everthing if there was no apostasy?

There is no revelation as to the exact time when the power of heaven was removed from the original church…that was a gradual change. There was a gradual infiiltration of false doctrines in the church. There were internal and external forces operating for its contamination. That is similar to how Israel became apostate in the old testament.Warnings and more warnings from prophets and then finaly the removal of God’s power.

Mormons of course are not perfect. But we have regular interviews with our Bishops, especially if we are to go to the temple or need to ordain another person. One should be honest about his status of worthiness. There are isolated incidents of priesthood holder not being worhty of course. That is expected! However, the Bishop is familiar with his flock, and the church collectively is worthy. We have a system in place to maintain that. Consequently the main body of the Priesthood is worthy and the church goes on with ordination and sucession in a clean way. We also know that the Church has been restored and will remain till the comming of Christ. That is in the scriptures! There is no prophecys of another apostasy. On the other hand, there are dozens of prophecys about temporary apostasy of the original church founded by Christ.

 

[Javl]

The same goes for Catholicism…After one reads the history and the doctrines of the Catholic Church, I wonder the same thing.

As far investigating with an open mind, I have done that for more than two decades. I have participated in many forums, includind Jewish, Protestants, Muslims and now Catholics. I have debated in English as well as in Portuguese. I have also read most anti Mormon material that circulates out there. However, I have found nothing that have shaken my faith and belief.

I was born in the Catholic Church and remained in it till 21. At that time I did some research and embraced Mormonism.

OK on your investigations. I can assure you that if you were Catholic and knew the faith you would have never left it. I have studied comparative religions for over 60 years, and with an open mind. My studies have always led me to the Catholic Church as the one and only True Church founded by Jesus. The Bible has really been the only witness to Jesus Christ and no other witness was/has been needed. Therefore I am a Catholic and remain a Catholic and will be a Catholic to my dying day.

FYI: Catholic Christianity is a fulfillment and continuation of Judaism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Shalom Aleichem

 

[lax16]

lax16,

There is no one like Judas, but I gave you that example to ilustrate a point of doctrine, which makes a lot of sense. The apostasy was going on even during the times of the apostles. The evidence is abundant. The Apostles warned the saints time and time again. Even the Lord talks about a restoratiion. How can the Lord and Apostles talk about restoration of everthing if there was no apostasy?

**There is no revelation as to the exact time when the power of heaven was removed from **the original church…that was a gradual change. There was a gradual infiiltration of false doctrines in the church. There were internal and external forces operating for its contamination. That is similar to how Israel became apostate in the old testament.Warnings and more warnings from prophets and then finaly the removal of God’s power.

Mormons of course are not perfect. But we have regular interviews with our Bishops, especially if we are to go to the temple or need to ordain another person. One should be honest about his status of worthiness. There are isolated incidents of priesthood holder not being worhty of course. That is expected! However, the Bishop is familiar with his flock, and the church collectively is worthy. We have a system in place to maintain that. Consequently the main body of the Priesthood is worthy and the church goes on with ordination and sucession in a clean way. We also know that the Church has been restored and will remain till the comming of Christ. That is in the scriptures! There is no prophecys of another apostasy. On the other hand, there are dozens of prophecys about temporary apostasy of the original church founded by Christ.

evanfaust - don’t Mormons believe that the Catholic Church is of the devil? and is the Whore of Babylon? If so, how was the power removed from the original church if it was never good from the beginning?

I’m sorry, but I know of several Mormons that, in your words, would be considered apostate. And there are several cases of sex abuse in the LDS church. If all callings are guided by the Holy Spirit, then how could this happen if a Bishop is “familiar with his flock?”

Do Mormons believe that Catholics are collectively worthy?

You say the apostasy was going on during the the times of the apostles. Please define apostasy and give examples.

 

[mmsiciliana]

The same goes for Catholicism…After one reads the history and the doctrines of the Catholic Church, I wonder the same thing.

As far investigating with an open mind, I have done that for more than two decades. I have participated in many forums, includind Jewish, Protestants, Muslims and now Catholics. I have debated in English as well as in Portuguese. I have also read most anti Mormon material that circulates out there. However, I have found nothing that have shaken my faith and belief.

I was born in the Catholic Church and remained in it till 21. At that time I did some research and embraced Mormonism.

How infinitely sad. HOW could you exchange the Eucharist–Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity for underwear with Masonic symbols on it?

 

[evanfaust]

evanfaust- President Hinckley was deceived by Mark Hoffman as well as many others. Your interpretation is always on the negative side! It is either dishonest or a liar. No wonder you cannot receive a confirmation like I did.

Atticus Finch lol…how could Hinkley have been decieved? Wasn;t he an Apostle and close to “the prophet?” I was taught as LDS that the Prophet speaks to Christ. How could someone like Hinkley be decieved if the Church is true?

evanfaust - Judas Iscariots walked with Jesus Christ and was one of the Apostles and yet…was deceived by the devil and lost his soul. In the case of Hinckley, he was just naive. His sin does not even come close to that of Judas, but the concept is the same!

 

[evanfaust]

OK on your investigations. I can assure you that if you were Catholic and knew the faith you would have never left it. I have studied comparative religions for over 60 years, and with an open mind. My studies have always led me to the Catholic Church as the one and only True Church founded by Jesus. The Bible has really been the only witness to Jesus Christ and no other witness was/has been needed. Therefore I am a Catholic and remain a Catholic and will be a Catholic to my dying day.

FYI: Catholic Christianity is a fulfillment and continuation of Judaism.

I guess you also accept all the scandals of the Catholic Church throughout its history, includind sexual scandals involving popes, inquisition and the list goes on and on! Then you tell me there was no apostasy! Sorry…too difficult to swallow that!

 

[why_me]

Sorry, but the scriptures are not vague, they are forthright and plain. Our God does not muddle things up. It is those that mis-interpret the scriptures that call them vague and interpret them to suit their purpose.

And yes, religion does depend upon faith and also hard evidence. The scriptures have been proven conclusively to be historically accurate, etc., whereas the BOM has not.

Scripture has said to test all things to see if it is from God. The BOM and other LDS literature has been tested and has proven to be wanting and not to be of God. Therefore we take heed of Paul’s warning.

I don’t know what Bible you are using, but my Bible and just about every Bible I have ever read, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, has proven that Jesus is the Son of God, and God, the second person of the Holy Trinity.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The scriptures are vague and that is why catholics, protestants and other christian groupings have a difficult time agreeing about doctrine. The bible may or may not be totally accurate historically but that is not the point. There is no proof that jesus is the christ except from what we have in the bible. There are no other witnesses to the events of christ. Now it would be wonderful if they were found scrolls from that time also confirming what we have in the bible but we don’t have such things. No proof except from what is in the bible…

For an atheist, an historical novel is still a novel. Now if the book of mormon was proven to be historically accurate without a shadow of a doubt, it would confirm that god exists. No doubt about it. No faith needed. And god does not seem to work that way. Faith is always needed since hard evidence is lacking.

 

[Javl]

The scriptures are vague and that is why catholics, protestants and other christian groupings have a difficult time agreeing about doctrine. The bible may or may not be totally accurate historically but that is not the point. There is no proof that jesus is the christ except from what we have in the bible. There are no other witnesses to the events of christ. Now it would be wonderful if they were found scrolls from that time also confirming what we have in the bible but we don’t have such things. No proof except from what is in the bible…

Again I state that the scriptures are vague to those that do not understand them and wrest them for their own purposes. As for proof that Jesus is the Messiah, I would say that the Bible, which is the Word Of God should be proof enough. But there is also secular proof in the writings of the Apostles, early Church fathers and some contemporary historians. I guess you have not bothered to find out.

For an atheist, an historical novel is still a novel. Now if the book of mormon was proven to be historically accurate without a shadow of a doubt, it would confirm that god exists. No doubt about it. No faith needed. And god does not seem to work that way. Faith is always needed since hard evidence is lacking.

I would have to agree with you on your points here, but the Book of Mormon has been proven many times to be fiction. There is nothing historical, archaeological, paleological, geneological, etc., to prove it to be otherwise. As for God’s existence, just look around you, even atheists have to admit to an existence of some supernatural force, which is God. It seems that the LDS live in a different world/universe than do we Christians.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[mmsiciliana]

Question:

Jesus Christ, Satan, and all human beings are spirit children of the Father, correct? This makes us brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, correct? What is it that makes Jesus divine and why aren’t we divine like Jesus?

 

[Javl]

I guess you also accept all the scandals of the Catholic Church throughout its history, includind sexual scandals involving popes, inquisition and the list goes on and on! Then you tell me there was no apostasy! Sorry…too difficult to swallow that!

These scandals involve individuals and human beings, not the Church. Apostacy involves an individual. The Church as a whole has not apostacised as the LDS claims. This was all foretold by Christ. He has remained with His Church to protect it against Satan and his horde as He has promised since it has lasted for two thousand years, unchanged. If not, then He is/was not who He claims/claimed to be and God does not exist, and all that has gone on from the beginning is false and just a figment of man’s imagination ( this includes the LDS ).

Also, before you make any claim or charge of apostacy against any Christian Church, please make sure that you know its entire history, and not just hearsay. Thank you.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Question:

Jesus Christ, Satan, and all human beings are spirit children of the Father, correct? This makes us brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, correct? What is it that makes Jesus divine and why aren’t we divine like Jesus?

MMSiciliana,
Your question has merit, whether Satan was a “fallen angel” or “fallen son of the morning” who rebelled against Heavenly Father, or whether he was our “spirit brother”. Satan (Lucifer) made a knowledgeable choice to rebel against Heavenly Father’s plan that was going to allow the growth and progress of the spirit children of God through the fact that the Father had a Perfect Son in the midst of all the spirits there in that pre-mortal “heaven”, and that Perfect Son could thus be the Redeemer of the other spirits who were also spirit children of the Father but were nowhere near being perfect at all.

That Perfect Son had already shown He was Perfect, by having perfect love, perfect faith, perfect understanding of Heavenly Father’s plan, and omnipotence because of His faith and His love and His understanding. This is why He is Alpha and Omega, and is God with us, Immanuel. He came to earth as Heavenly Father’s perfect Son, the Firstborn in the spirit who had thus lived as a spirit long before we lived as spirits, and had demonstrated His love and His perfection long before we lived as spirits.

Thus that Perfect Son had different attributes than any of the other spirits in heaven except the Holy Ghost, the Third Member of the Godhead, who also was and is omnipotent and perfectly loving and perfectly wise and united in His will with the will of the Father.

What made Jesus divine was that His intelligence was far advanced in innate wisdom, knowledge, love, and faith than any other intelligence and those qualities came with Him into His being the Firstborn in the spirit. That is why He is called “Alpha” and why He is called “God the Son, the Firstborn”. It is how He was Jehovah, the Creator of this earth where we dwell and of the heavens we see above us.

 

[AtticusFinch]

evanfaust- President Hinckley was deceived by Mark Hoffman as well as many others. Your interpretation is always on the negative side! It is either dishonest or a liar. No wonder you cannot receive a confirmation like I did.

Atticus Finch lol…how could Hinkley have been decieved? Wasn;t he an Apostle and close to “the prophet?” I was taught as LDS that the Prophet speaks to Christ. How could someone like Hinkley be decieved if the Church is true?

evanfaust - Judas Iscariots walked with Jesus Christ and was one of the Apostles and yet…was deceived by the devil and lost his soul. In the case of Hinckley, he was just naive. His sin does not even come close to that of Judas, but the concept is the same!

Judas was decieved by greed. I agree, so was Hinkley.

Actually, Judas did what Judas was supposed to do. And he never bragged he spoke directly to God as have the LDS prophets. Bottom line, not only was Hinkley decieved, he lied to authorities during the investigation.

 

[ParkerD]

Judas was decieved by greed. I agree, so was Hinkley.

Actually, Judas did what Judas was supposed to do. And he never bragged he spoke directly to God as have the LDS prophets. Bottom line, not only was Hinkley decieved, he lied to authorities during the investigation.

Judas didn’t do what “Judas was supposed to do.”

Why in the world you ever joined and participated in the LDS church, one wonders as you show your true nature and what is in your heart.

I suppose this post demonstrates that your prayers aren’t “directly to God”. That might be what you could work on in your life to good benefit.