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Horton
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The irony here. St John talking about nourishment from God, nourishment for the body & soul and old Joe thinks it actually food.
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Prodigal1984
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The amount of plagiarism in the BOM is astonishing. He is lucky noone picked up on it back then. Or maybe people did. Here is a comparison of things Smith stole from the KJV Apocrypha which was in that Bible until the 1800s (deuterocanonical books in Catholic Church, well besides 2(4) Esdras which is considered Apocryphal but it was in the Vulgate and after Trent is in the appendix of the Vulgate with 1(3) Esdras, and the Prayer of Manasseh.
We will assay to abridge in one volume … labouring to follow the rules of an abridgment … But to use brevity … is to be granted to him that will make an abridgement.(2 Maccabees 2:25-31)
I make an abridgement of the record … after I have abridged the record … I had made an abridgement from the plates of Nephi … I write a small abridgement. (1 Nephi 1:17, Words of Mormon 3, 5:9)
They commanded that this writing should be put in tables of brass, and that they should be set … in a conspicuous place; Also that the copies thereof should be laid up in the treasury(1 Maccabees 14:48-49)
And I commanded him … that he should go with me into the treasury … I also spake unto him that I should carry the engravings, which were upon the plates of brass(1 Nephi 4:20,24)
Then the king, in closing the place, made it holy … many men call it Nephi. (2 Maccabees 1:34,36)
And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore we did call it Nephi. (2 Nephi 5:8)
And it came to pass … I dreamed a dream by night (2(4) Esdras 13:1)
And it came to pass … Behold, I have dreamed a dream (1 Nephi 8:2)
We will assay to abridge in one volume … labouring to follow the rules of an abridgment … But to use brevity … is to be granted to him that will make an abridgement.(2 Maccabees 2:25-31)
I make an abridgement of the record … after I have abridged the record … I had made an abridgement from the plates of Nephi … I write a small abridgement. (1 Nephi 1:17, Words of Mormon 3, 5:9)
They commanded that this writing should be put in tables of brass, and that they should be set … in a conspicuous place; Also that the copies thereof should be laid up in the treasury(1 Maccabees 14:48-49)
And I commanded him … that he should go with me into the treasury … I also spake unto him that I should carry the engravings, which were upon the plates of brass(1 Nephi 4:20,24)
Then the king, in closing the place, made it holy … many men call it Nephi. (2 Maccabees 1:34,36)
And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore we did call it Nephi. (2 Nephi 5:8)
And it came to pass … I dreamed a dream by night (2(4) Esdras 13:1)
And it came to pass … Behold, I have dreamed a dream (1 Nephi 8:2)
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Prodigal1984
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And from books we all consider canon
The kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34)
The kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world (2 Nephi 9:18)
I judge: and my judgment is just" (John 5:30)
He judgeth, and his judgment is just(Mosiah 3:18)
He which is filthy, let him be filthy still(Revelation 22:11)
He who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness(Alma 7:21)
That one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not(John 11:50)
That one man should perish than that a nation should … perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13)
The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2:22)
The dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire" (3 Nephi 7:8)
Maybe this is why people read it and think they are reading scripture. Because in many ways they are. Just in the most blasphemous of ways
The kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34)
The kingdom of God, which was prepared for them from the foundation of the world (2 Nephi 9:18)
I judge: and my judgment is just" (John 5:30)
He judgeth, and his judgment is just(Mosiah 3:18)
He which is filthy, let him be filthy still(Revelation 22:11)
He who is filthy shall remain in his filthiness(Alma 7:21)
That one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not(John 11:50)
That one man should perish than that a nation should … perish in unbelief (1 Nephi 4:13)
The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2:22)
The dog to his vomit, or like the sow to her wallowing in the mire" (3 Nephi 7:8)
Maybe this is why people read it and think they are reading scripture. Because in many ways they are. Just in the most blasphemous of ways
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njlisa
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As I understand it, the standard King James version, with Mormon commentary, is the official Bible of the LDS church.
As far as I know, the Joseph Smith Translation is used for ancillary study.
As far as I know, the Joseph Smith Translation is used for ancillary study.
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lilypadrees
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The Mormons I’ve spoken with deny using the JST.
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RebeccaJ
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JST of Matthew is in the “Pearl of Great Price”.
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RebeccaJ
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The Mormon commentary references the JST.
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gazelam
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Latter-day Saint blogger Jeff Lindsay provides a satire of these types of absurd claims of plagiarism by Joseph Smith. He shows how the Book of Mormon can be shown to have been plagiarized from Walt Whitman’s Leaves of Grass.
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Prodigal1984
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Yah. I’d join it but Mormons are one of a handful of groups who give the easy old apostasy narrative.
Iglesia Ni Cristo has a more convincing story honestly.
I’d go over to La Luz del Mundo but it seems their Apostle is now arrested for sexual immorality. Must be a trend, that was why Joseph Smith was thrown in jail too right? Either way one of his wives was only 14.Or was that after he burned down the newspaper? Some prophet.
One of my best friends left that group. I guess he was on his mission and was exposed to all that Book of Abraham stuff and others. Got kicked off his mission because he actually went back to peoples house he had gotten to be baptized and apologized to them and told them to leave and he had deceived them
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That is one of the greater conversion stories I ever heard.
Iglesia Ni Cristo has a more convincing story honestly.
I’d go over to La Luz del Mundo but it seems their Apostle is now arrested for sexual immorality. Must be a trend, that was why Joseph Smith was thrown in jail too right? Either way one of his wives was only 14.Or was that after he burned down the newspaper? Some prophet.
One of my best friends left that group. I guess he was on his mission and was exposed to all that Book of Abraham stuff and others. Got kicked off his mission because he actually went back to peoples house he had gotten to be baptized and apologized to them and told them to leave and he had deceived them
.That is one of the greater conversion stories I ever heard.
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gazelam
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Seems like plagiarism wasn’t really a concern here…
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njlisa
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The bottom line is – science refutes the claims of the Book of Mormon. There is no archaeological evidence proving the existence of the Lamanites and Nephites. And DNA links modern day Native Americans to East Asians, not Middle Easterners.
The Book of Abraham is a mistranslated Egyptian funerary document.
Given the inaccuracies of Joseph Smith’s other translations, why should anyone outside of the LDS Church lend credence to the JTS “Bible”?
The Book of Abraham is a mistranslated Egyptian funerary document.
Given the inaccuracies of Joseph Smith’s other translations, why should anyone outside of the LDS Church lend credence to the JTS “Bible”?
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Prodigal1984
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That is what I am saying.
I spoke with Mormon missionaries once. I wasn’t trying to convert, more so just wanted to learn about their beliefs.
They couldn’t answer the most basic of my questions, regarding a simple contradiction they probably don’t even get asked to often. I asked them why they use the KJV, they replied because Joseph Smith said it is the most accurate translation. I realized to them nothing matters logically because to them if Joseph Smith is a prophet then what he says goes.
A true prophet of God coming to restore Christianity wouldn’t tell people to read a Protestant Bible for one. The entire movement is based off of a Protestant outlook on the scriptures. They throw Bible verses at you trying to support their claims as if they are candy.
One time I asked, how do you even know that book you just cited to try to make me think this is truth is scripture? They seemed puzzled, because obviously it is just the Bible right?
I explained that the Bible as we know it, at least the New Testament ( the Old Testament has some differences among Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox but that is for a different thread) was not formalized until Pope Damasus in the later fourth century. In fact the Council of Hippo didn’t name the same books until 393. I explained then why they trust a church they claim fell into apostasy following the death of the last Apostles on some of these books, especially disputed ones in the early Church are scripture if that is the case. Truly many early Christians went to their graves thinking certain books were scripture that aren’t in the Bible today. It seems like a paradox on their part. They came back the next time and gave me this really weak response on how the Bible isn’t perfect and that’s why we need the Book of Mormon. So why even use the Bible in that case?
I spoke with Mormon missionaries once. I wasn’t trying to convert, more so just wanted to learn about their beliefs.
They couldn’t answer the most basic of my questions, regarding a simple contradiction they probably don’t even get asked to often. I asked them why they use the KJV, they replied because Joseph Smith said it is the most accurate translation. I realized to them nothing matters logically because to them if Joseph Smith is a prophet then what he says goes.
A true prophet of God coming to restore Christianity wouldn’t tell people to read a Protestant Bible for one. The entire movement is based off of a Protestant outlook on the scriptures. They throw Bible verses at you trying to support their claims as if they are candy.
One time I asked, how do you even know that book you just cited to try to make me think this is truth is scripture? They seemed puzzled, because obviously it is just the Bible right?
I explained that the Bible as we know it, at least the New Testament ( the Old Testament has some differences among Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox but that is for a different thread) was not formalized until Pope Damasus in the later fourth century. In fact the Council of Hippo didn’t name the same books until 393. I explained then why they trust a church they claim fell into apostasy following the death of the last Apostles on some of these books, especially disputed ones in the early Church are scripture if that is the case. Truly many early Christians went to their graves thinking certain books were scripture that aren’t in the Bible today. It seems like a paradox on their part. They came back the next time and gave me this really weak response on how the Bible isn’t perfect and that’s why we need the Book of Mormon. So why even use the Bible in that case?
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Prodigal1984
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Also everything they say to convince you of an apostasy is self refuting seeing as the same thing happened after Smith’s death in 1844. Some followed Young to Utah, others followed who they thought was the rightful heir to Smith and went to Missouri. To this day there are more than one church claiming to practice Mormonism. That sounds like an apostasy right there. Maybe even more so seeing as it actually has historic fact to back it up. The only fact they have about an apostasy is a verse from Amos which is an Old Testament prophesy about restoring the diaspora Jews to Israel ( which happened before Christ was even born). They throw around James 1:5 in the most ridiculous relativist way, as if God will bring someone to truth in an individual manner. Good thing Luther didn’t succeed in removing that one along with Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation, otherwise it wouldn’t have even been in the KJV and no James to use. And then they still would be saying Smith said it is the most accurate translation. It is so ridiculous I can’t even stay charitable half the time I speak about it. The guy was a fraud. Even his witnesses that didn’t even see anything but said they had a feeling confirm it left the movement.
Smith was a Freemason and many of the temple endowments are basically stolen from Mason grand lodge ceremonies. Especially the Temple of Solomon references.
Smith was a Freemason and many of the temple endowments are basically stolen from Mason grand lodge ceremonies. Especially the Temple of Solomon references.
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njlisa
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@Prodigal1984
Jay, thanks for expanding my understanding with more background. God bless you.
Jay, thanks for expanding my understanding with more background. God bless you.
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njlisa
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Dear Latter-day Saints in this discussion:
In “The Will to Believe,” philosopher William James describes “live options” (things we are willing to believe) and “dead options” (things we are unwilling to believe). For nearly all mainstream Christians, Joseph Smith’s teachings are dead options. Yes, some Catholics, other Christians, and members of other faiths become Latter-day Saints. But well-catechized Christians won’t make that move.
I’m not negating the Saints’ piety and good works.
God bless you all.
In “The Will to Believe,” philosopher William James describes “live options” (things we are willing to believe) and “dead options” (things we are unwilling to believe). For nearly all mainstream Christians, Joseph Smith’s teachings are dead options. Yes, some Catholics, other Christians, and members of other faiths become Latter-day Saints. But well-catechized Christians won’t make that move.
I’m not negating the Saints’ piety and good works.
God bless you all.
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Lemuel
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They can’t deny it. There are footnotes and cross references in their canon which refer to the JST.
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gazelam
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Which science are you referring to? In Joseph Smith’s day, ancient metal records were unheard of. Since then over a dozen sets of metal records predating 900AD have been found. The Book of Mormon refers to cement and barley. The fact of cement and barley in Ancient America was unknown at the time of Joseph Smith, and has since been discovered.
Very few of Ancient American archeological sites have been excavated. National Geographic Mayan scholar George Stuart mentioned in 2001 that only 40 of 6,000 have been looked at. He said “We hardly know anything, really, about the Maya”.
Two points.
- This statement assumes that the Book of Mormon peoples were the only people in Ancient America. The Book of Mormon makes no such claim.
- DNA studies can neither prove nor disprove the Book of Mormon.
There are several written accounts of additional scrolls that Joseph Smith had in his possession that The Church of Jesus Christ currently does not have today.
There is no evidence that his other translations are incorrect and over time more and more evidence in coming forth supporting the Book of Mormon. Of course, the truthfulness of the things of God are revealed by God, not by science. 1 Corinthians 12:3 And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the holy Spirit.
The JST was a work in progress and has never been canonized by The Church of Jesus Christ. I personally do not believe that the proper role of the JST is that of textual restoration in all cases. This blog post notes instances where the current President of The Church of Jesus Christ sees the JST as clarification. I hope this helps…
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gazelam
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What exactly do you mean by “well-catechized Christians”? This Pew Research Center study suggests that Latter-day Saints are the most knowledgeable Christians as a whole based on its religious knowledge quiz.
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kainosktisis
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The sad reality though is that many Catholics are leaving precisely for that reason - among others…
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huck
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Hello gazelam,
It seems to me that the book of Ether does make that claim. It ends with a big battle where all the inhabitants were killed.
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