JPII now baptised by proxy by LDS

[rmcmullan]

so you cant answer questions that people have about mormon doctrine? so why are you posting here then if you can not answer the questions posed to you?

what are you here for then? you ahve stated you are not here to defend or explain the mormon doctrine …so what is your purpose?

Originally, I just wanted to let you know I thought your Hitler post was pretty funny. I didn’t know you were serious. But you were, to my surprise.

Look, I really don’t expect you to convince me or me to convince you and I wish everybody would stop asking me to. This thread has me sidetracked, I thought I would see where it went, just as an experiment, but it went nowhere as is inevitable.

The real reason why I am here is to learn. Majick275 & PaulDupress were very good about the continuing revalation question and even though I cannot accept the teaching, at least I understand it and it does hold together.

I also wanted to know about the priests getting married story I saw on www.foxnews.com and got a real good answer there. I also wanted to know about the prayer question. Mormons say free-lance prayers where as Catholics say the rosary. I now understand better the reasons why and can reconcile them somewhat with the rosaries intentions thing. These are all good things. And I like to talk about religion, it help me to think through the issues involved. But I can do without the regular beatings.

 

[Karin]

Originally, I just wanted to let you know I thought your Hitler post was pretty funny. I didn’t know you were serious. But you were, to my surprise.

Yes I was serious as serious as the LDS that did the baptizing of Hitler…or was it all just a BIG MORMON JOKE??

Look, I really don’t expect you to convince me or me to convince you and I wish everybody would stop asking me to.

convince each other of what?

This thread has me sidetracked, I thought I would see where it went, just as an experiment, but it went nowhere as is inevitable.

so you sidetracked yourself…fair enough. Of course it went somewhere it went to show how silly the practice of Baptising dead people is

Good luck on your quest!

 

[Karin]

And I like to talk about religion, it help me to think through the issues involved. But I can do without the regular beatings.

fair enough…no ones intention was to beat you up…we are asking questions and you should of stated at the start that you could not or would not answer them.

 

[majick275]

Reading your posts! The big problem I have is that you & PaulDupree haven’t kept your oaths. It’s all about that.

wow! so you are saying that if a Satanist who had pledged his soul to Satan repented later and joined the LDS church that you would have a problem with them being an “oathbreaker”?

What about those who have entered into “secret combinations”? They can’t repent because they swore an oath?

You might want to rethink that.

 

[majick275]

/snip
The real reason why I am here is to learn. Majick275 & PaulDupress were very good about the continuing revalation question and even though I cannot accept the teaching, at least I understand it and it does hold together.

I also wanted to know about the priests getting married story I saw on www.foxnews.com and got a real good answer there. I also wanted to know about the prayer question. Mormons say free-lance prayers where as Catholics say the rosary.

just to be accurate, Catholics frequently say spontaneous prayers and every sacrament meeting Mormons say set prayers. I would point you to Matthew 6 which appears to be frequently misunderstood. The “vain repetitions” is linked with “much speaking”. This scripture tells us that God already knows what we want and what we need. We don’t need to spend a bunch of time on those things. He GIVES us our most fundamental prayer here (The Our Father) because our prayers should help us to focus on spiritual principles and because it is always good to give thanks and praise. (read verse 8 and 9 and think about that)

I now understand better the reasons why and can reconcile them somewhat with the rosaries intentions thing. These are all good things. And I like to talk about religion, it help me to think through the issues involved. But I can do without the regular beatings.

fair enough…but quit GIVING the beatings then. (understand too that amgid/zerinus has made many here somewhat short tempered in that area)

 

[rmcmullan]

just to be accurate, Catholics frequently say spontaneous prayers and every sacrament meeting Mormons say set prayers. I would point you to Matthew 6 which appears to be frequently misunderstood. The “vain repetitions” is linked with “much speaking”. This scripture tells us that God already knows what we want and what we need. We don’t need to spend a bunch of time on those things. He GIVES us our most fundamental prayer here (The Our Father) because our prayers should help us to focus on spiritual principles and because it is always good to give thanks and praise. (read verse 8 and 9 and think about that)
fair enough…but quit GIVING the beatings then. (understand too that amgid/zerinus has made many here somewhat short tempered in that area)

Okay, Majick275, I am going to apologize to you (and Mr. Dupree), I was out of line. Everyone reading this thread, I humble myself and ask what I said regarding those two fine and thoughtful men be striken from the record.

Can you tell me more about Catholics & spontaneous prayers?

 

[rmcmullan]

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

I do notice that NO MORMON has touched this…they keep avoiding it like the plague???** WHY???**

Okay Karin, since everybody here really wants me to I will touch this one. Although I do so with the expectation that everything I say will be quickly disregarded and refuted. If you are good Catholics, it is your duty, n’est ca pas?

Baptism for the Dead is a way of salvation for people who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel and to receive it’s ordinances. If a person passes through the veil of death, they will get to hear the gospel preached (on the other side) and they can choose whether or not to accept it. After all, it’s not their fault they were born in a heathen nation or whatever their extenuating circumstances might have been. The spirit that posses their body will determine if they accept the gospel. If they’ve heard the gospel and have already refused it (by action or profession), I would guess they would refuse it again if offered again. You are all familiar with the verses that emphasize the necessity of baptism as a saving ordinance.

You guys all know this, have probably heard it before and it’s been argued many times before I’m sure. So why did you want to hear it again?

 

[majick275]

yes I can and no need to “humble yourself” before your fellow sinners who are no better than you in the eyes of God.

My wife taught pre-school at a Catholic School for the last 3 years. Part of the curriculum (which must be approved by the diocese) is that the children learn to pray both basic “set” prayers and spontaneous prayers. This is reinforced in religious education classes. My youngest son is in sacramental preparation class and is taught the same principle. (different parish AND diocese) the Catechism supports this

here is the link:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c1a3.htm#2629

The Catholic church, while providing a rich treasury of prayers for the education and edification of all, encourages all to pray directly to God with sincere expressions thanks, praise, supplication, intercession and any other motivation to speak with God. The Ancient Israelites didn’t want to speak with God, they wanted Moses to do that for them. They WANTED a temple with priests in it to speak on their behalf because they feared God. Hebrews shows us how Jesus became once and for all the only HIGH priest necessary and the veil was rent at his death because that made it possible for all of us to speak directly with God whenever we want to.

 

[Karin]

Okay Karin, since everybody here really wants me to I will touch this one. Although I do so with the expectation that everything I say will be quickly disregarded and refuted. If you are good Catholics, it is your duty, n’est ca pas?

Baptism for the Dead is a way of salvation for people who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel and to receive it’s ordinances. If a person passes through the veil of death, they will get to hear the gospel preached (on the other side) and they can choose whether or not to accept it. After all, it’s not their fault they were born in a heathen nation or whatever their extenuating circumstances might have been. The spirit that posses their body will determine if they accept the gospel. If they’ve heard the gospel and have already refused it (by action or profession), I would guess they would refuse it again if offered again. You are all familiar with the verses that emphasize the necessity of baptism as a saving ordinance.

You guys all know this, have probably heard it before and it’s been argued many times before I’m sure. So why did you want to hear it again?

My understanding from Pauls post is that the BoM denies the possibility of changing one’s eternal fate after death.(see the bolded parts) … but I guess you disagree?

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

 

[rmcmullan]

Karin,
Now that you realise that Baptism for the dead is well within Paul’s teachings, I think it’s time for you to invite the Mormon missionaries over for dinner. They certainly would appreciate it, but try to be nice to them. Unless you are ready to do that, I don’t know if there’s any point in discussing points of Mormon doctrine any further. And I’m not on a mission, not here anyway.

 

[Karin]

Karin,
Now that you realise that Baptism for the dead is well within Paul’s teachings, I think it’s time for you to invite the Mormon missionaries over for dinner.

It is not in line with Pauls teaching but thanks for trying…The Paul I was referring to was PaulDupre (you know the ex-mormon) who was the one who’s post I was quoting
as to having mormons to my house for dinner…nah I’ll pass thank you…Also it owuld seem that the BoM does not support your assumption that Baptism for the dead is a valid practice

They certainly would appreciate it, but try to be nice to them. Unless you are ready to do that, I don’t know if there’s any point in discussing points of Mormon doctrine any further. And I’m not on a mission, not here anyway.

Fair enough…I am sure that they would appreciate a FREE meal…but perhaps they can go to another mormons for dinner not my house or perhaps the JW’s down the street or the nice orthodox jewish family next door will invite them

 

[Eden]

Karin,
Now that you realise that Baptism for the dead is well within Paul’s teachings, I think it’s time for you to invite the Mormon missionaries over for dinner. They certainly would appreciate it, but try to be nice to them. Unless you are ready to do that, I don’t know if there’s any point in discussing points of Mormon doctrine any further. And I’m not on a mission, not here anyway.

Is that mission to find evidence of the lost language of Reformed Egyptian? To find the coins, chariots, horse skeletons, settlement ruins and other remains of the ancient civilization that lived on this continent? To locate Kolob? Or to find the missing DNA link to counter the fact that Native American Indians are not descended from the Israelites?

 

[tequilamac]

Okay Karin, since everybody here really wants me to I will touch this one. Although I do so with the expectation that everything I say will be quickly disregarded and refuted. If you are good Catholics, it is your duty, n’est ca pas?

Baptism for the Dead is a way of salvation for people who have not had the opportunity to hear the gospel and to receive it’s ordinances. If a person passes through the veil of death, they will get to hear the gospel preached (on the other side) and they can choose whether or not to accept it. After all, it’s not their fault they were born in a heathen nation or whatever their extenuating circumstances might have been. The spirit that posses their body will determine if they accept the gospel. If they’ve heard the gospel and have already refused it (by action or profession), I would guess they would refuse it again if offered again. You are all familiar with the verses that emphasize the necessity of baptism as a saving ordinance.

You guys all know this, have probably heard it before and it’s been argued many times before I’m sure. So why did you want to hear it again?

That makes no sense at all considering the title of this thread. Not only did John Paul II hear the gospel, he memorized it and taught it. So then please explain the purpose of the Mormons baptising him again. Obviously it is not as you say, because he never heard the gospel. Try again. And by the way which gospel? The one according to Christ or the one according to Joe Smith? Which of course brings us back to the point I made earlier- the mormons parody or satirize the Catholic Church with their Mormon rituals which of course means that Joe Smith was in opposition to most of Christianity. The Gospel can only be delivered in it’s unadulterated form by a Catholic Christian. So this makes Joe Smith a what? not a who.

 

[PaulDupre]

The only gospel the Mormons recognize is the gospel according to Joseph Smith.

In their minds, Pope JPII was not validly baptized and followed a false gospel. In fact, they call the Nicene Creed an “abomination” and we are all “corrupt” for professing it. (Joseph Smith History - Pearl of Great Price)
Paul

 

[tequilamac]

The only gospel the Mormons recognize is the gospel according to Joseph Smith.

In their minds, Pope JPII was not validly baptized and followed a false gospel. In fact, they call the Nicene Creed an “abomination” and we are all “corrupt” for professing it. (Joseph Smith History - Pearl of Great Price)
Paul

Exactly my point. The Mormons are I]directly oppositional to mainstream Christianity, meaning they are influenced more by Antichrists than Christ.
All of their stuff, not just this baptismal stuff, is directly oppositional. Joe Smith was very good at what he did. He got his stuff I’m sure straight out of the Bible, not off of Gold Plates.
It’s like he would read a bible passage and ponder how to oppose it then write that as the new revelation of Moroni. I mean really. that is how it seemed to me when i read the Book of Mormon. That I was reading the opposite of the Bible, not a co-bible.

 

[rmcmullan]

here is the link:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c1a3.htm#2629
.

Thanks again for that excellent link, Majick275.

It got me to thinking (some how!) how similar prayers and songs are and how that thread on the rosary often mentioned the Psalms.

 

[majick275]

your welcome. Psalms were songs written to worship and praise God with. The rosary is derived from the custom of reciting Psalms.

 

[rmcmullan]

Before this flamefest sinks into obscurity, let me ask the obvious question: What is the Catholic teaching on those people who were never baptized because the gospel was never taught to them?

 

[majick275]

this is the “quick” version of the catechism on that:

*The Church also recognizes two other forms of baptism: “baptism of blood” and “baptism of desire.” Baptism of blood refers to unbaptized individuals who are martyred for the Faith, while baptism of desire generally refers to catechumens who die before they can be baptized. The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes these two forms:

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament. (1258)

For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. (1259)

Non-Christians who seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try to do His will as they know it through the dictates of conscience can also be saved without water baptism; they are said to desire it implicitly. (cf. Catechism, 1260). As for unbaptized infants, the Church is unsure of their fate; “the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God” (Catechism, 1261).*

We trust God to take care of everyone. We humans aren’t required to “pick up the slack”. God knows everyone’s heart and treats them accordingly.

The Church teaches that “baptism is necessary for salvation” (Catechism, 1257) and entry into heaven; and therefore, a person who knowledgeably, willfully and unrepentantly rejects baptism has no hope of salvation. Three forms of baptism are acknowledged by the Church. Baptism by water refers to the traditional baptism where the individual is immersed or infused with water in the name of the Trinity.

 

[rmcmullan]

And under which category would the people to whom the Bible refers to as “Heathen Nations” fall under, would it be unbaptized infants or non-Christians who seek God? I am having trouble with that last category. It seems to me to say that anyone who is following their conscience (with the notable exceptions mentioned) can be saved without baptism but that’s a pretty broad category.