JPII now baptised by proxy by LDS

[PaulDupre]

If you want to have a serious discussion that praying to the Father in the name of the Son is like praying to Vishnu or Allah, go ahead but it’s really another thread. You ex-Mormons know that that Adam God theory has never been official doctrine and unless you quote Orson Pratt or Journal of Discourses or some other non-scriptural source, it has no endorsement. I would advise you to stick to the scriptures if you are interested in credibility. Having read the post on Powers of the Pope, especially the opening one on Papal infallability, I would think this would be a familiar appeal.

No one here has mentioned Adam-God. I and all of us are referring to the LDS official doctrine of “Eternal Progression”, which teaches that “As man is now, God once was. As God is now, man may become”.

God bless,
Paul

 

[zerinus]

So true. We pray to the Father in Jesus’ name. But it’s not like we’re praying to Vishnu or Allah.

It is not true that we do not worship Jesus. The Book of Mormon specifically commands us to worship Jesus:

2 Nephi 25:

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

We pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus because that is what God has commanded us to do:

Matthew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. . . .

But that does not mean that we cannot pray to Jesus. The Nephites didn’t seem to have any problem praying to Jesus:

3 Nephi 19:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

And in the D&C we are specifically instructed to pray to the Lord:

D&C 5:

24 . . . but if he will bow down before me, and humble himself in mighty prayer and faith, in the sincerity of his heart, . . .

D&C 29:

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

But as a general rule, we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, because that is the primary instruction we have received.

Majick275, that’s pretty darn good. I might even give that one up.

The score so far:

Majick275: 1
rmcmullan: 0

Moroni 8, Mosiah 15, and 2 Nephi 9 do not prove nor disprove the practice of baptism for the dead among the Nephites. I don’t know whether baptism for the dead was practiced among the Nephites or not. The Book of Mormon does not specifically mention it, and it is quite possible that it was not practised by them. Just because something has been revealed to us, it does not necessarily follow that it must have also been revealed to another dispensation as well. But the above scriptures do not prove anything either way. Those who are “without law” (e.g. pagans) are redeemed by the atonement of Christ, provided that they have not had the gospel preached to them by divine authority from God, and they be given a chance to accept or reject it in this life (see D&C 76:39, 72-76). That means that they will not suffer the “second death” (those who go to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom are still considered saved); but that does not exempt them from the vicarious ordinances for the dead if they are to receive an inheritance in the celestial kingdom.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

It is not true that we do not worship Jesus. The Book of Mormon specifically commands us to worship Jesus:

That is confusing …the first sentence you state you do not worship Jesus and then you go on to state that you do…which is it?

 

[majick275]

It is not true that we do not worship Jesus. The Book of Mormon specifically commands us to worship Jesus:

2 Nephi 25:

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

I find it interesting that once again we see that the BoM is very different than the current LDS. Remember that this BoM also says there is one God and that the father and the son are the same God.

We pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus because that is what God has commanded us to do:

Matthew 6:

9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Luke 11:

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. . . .

and when is the last time that you saw the lordds prayer recited in an LDS service?

But that does not mean that we cannot pray to Jesus. The Nephites didn’t seem to have any problem praying to Jesus:

3 Nephi 19:

18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

And in the D&C we are specifically instructed to pray to the Lord:

D&C 5:

24 . . . but if he will bow down before me, and humble himself in mighty prayer and faith, in the sincerity of his heart, . . .

D&C 29:

2 Who will gather his people even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, even as many as will hearken to my voice and humble themselves before me, and call upon me in mighty prayer.

But as a general rule, we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, because that is the primary instruction we have received.

and again the BoM contradicts actual LDS practice. When have you ever seen any LDS priesthood leader pray directly to Jesus? where (other than the BoM) have you seen that taught in the LDS church?

Moroni 8, Mosiah 15, and 2 Nephi 9 do not prove nor disprove the practice of baptism for the dead among the Nephites. I don’t know whether baptism for the dead was practiced among the Nephites or not. The Book of Mormon does not specifically mention it, and it is quite possible that it was not practised by them. Just because something has been revealed to us, it does not necessarily follow that it must have also been revealed to another dispensation as well. But the above scriptures do not prove anything either way. Those who are “without law” (e.g. pagans) are redeemed by the atonement of Christ, provided that they have not had the gospel preached to them by divine authority from God, and they be given a chance to accept or reject it in this life (see D&C 76:39, 72-76). That means that they will not suffer the “second death” (those who go to the terrestrial or telestial kingdom are still considered saved); but that does not exempt them from the vicarious ordinances for the dead if they are to receive an inheritance in the celestial kingdom.

zerinus

ah but where does it say any of that? you are reaching for straws when you assert these caveats that are clearly not present in canonized scripture. how could one of the three primary missions of the church
not have been revealed when Christ was present? do you claim that Christ didn’t bring the whole gospel? If LDS are truly a “restoration” then the original should show it. with the BoM you can’t claim “translation errors” or “plain and precious things” being removed. It should show the original state that Joseph Smith was restoring. so where are these uniquely Mormon doctrines in this book of Mormon? vicarious ordinances for the dead? no, eternal marriage? no, endowments? no, first presidency or quorum of twelve apostles as perpetual bodies required for priesthood authority? nope… not really seeing any of it. in fact I think amgid once again did us the favor of showing in his own posts how mormonism is false. case in point this time: the BoM says to pray directly to Jesus, bowing down and worshiping him, and to pray the Our Father… yet the LDS do NOT do this ever.

 

[tequilamac]

I find it interesting that once again we see that the BoM is very different than the current LDS. Remember that this BoM also says there is one God and that the father and the son are the same God.

and when is the last time that you saw the lordds prayer recited in an LDS service?

and again the BoM contradicts actual LDS practice. When have you ever seen any LDS priesthood leader pray directly to Jesus? where (other than the BoM) have you seen that taught in the LDS church?

ah but where does it say any of that? you are reaching for straws when you assert these caveats that are clearly not present in canonized scripture. how could one of the three primary missions of the church
not have been revealed when Christ was present? do you claim that Christ didn’t bring the whole gospel? If LDS are truly a “restoration” then the original should show it. with the BoM you can’t claim “translation errors” or “plain and precious things” being removed. It should show the original state that Joseph Smith was restoring. so where are these uniquely Mormon doctrines in this book of Mormon? vicarious ordinances for the dead? no, eternal marriage? no, endowments? no, first presidency or quorum of twelve apostles as perpetual bodies required for priesthood authority? nope… not really seeing any of it. in fact I think amgid once again did us the favor of showing in his own posts how mormonism is false. case in point this time: the BoM says to pray directly to Jesus, bowing down and worshiping him, and to pray the Our Father… yet the LDS do NOT do this ever.

Besides having a trinity that in theology is too bizarre to be Christian, this is the other glaring reason why Mormonism cannot be accepted fully as a “Christian religion”. LDS simply refuses to do what Jesus said* had* to be done.

And this is what appears irrational to everyone else= why claim as the Mormons have done that Jesus was a good man, if they think he was too stupid to know what needed to be done? He was a good but stupid prophet? He was a good but stupid man?
There is nothing in Mormonism to compel anyone to call it a religion rather than a “way of life” or a “philosophy” or a “fraternal club”. There is not that which differentiates Mormonism in it’s practice from the great philospers, from Scientology also erroneously considered a religion, and especially Freemasonry.

On earth it’s most close cousins are the I AM’s in it’s view of theology, Scientology in it’s view of Heaven and death, and Freemasonry in it’s actual rituals. It bears practically no resemblance to a religion especially Christianity.

 

[rmcmullan]

Whine Whine Whine This thread I guess is changing its subject. Let me take a stab at trying to unite these two subjects. It’s all about the eternal progression. So what happens after you die? Float around on a cloud and sing hymns? I hope not. Are we a finished product at the time of our death? Will we be twinkled to perfection or will it take some time? Will we remain imperfect in heaven? Or will it take us some time to work out our kinks? Do we improve or change in the afterlife?

If the answer is yes, you just might want to accept the law of God if you never have had the chance before.

 

[tequilamac]

Whine Whine Whine This thread I guess is changing its subject. Let me take a stab at trying to unite these two subjects. It’s all about the eternal progression. So what happens after you die? Float around on a cloud and sing hymns? I hope not. Are we a finished product at the time of our death? Will we be twinkled to perfection or will it take some time? Will we remain imperfect in heaven? Or will it take us some time to work out our kinks? Do we improve or change in the afterlife?

If the answer is yes, you just might want to accept the law of God if you never have had the chance before.

So basically you are saying that we get this one life from God (or maybe not God as the Mormons have not decided who the creator is) but anyway we have this life and we get to throw it away as we see fit because after we die we get another chance with the missionaries waiting for us in apartment 3, 4, 5? Under that reasoning, why bother to talk to a Mormon now? I’d rather go fishing. You can baptise me later when I’m dead.No problem. I get it. Life is merely a waste of time and the good stuff starts when I croak. Is that what the mormons teach?

 

[majick275]

Whine Whine Whine This thread I guess is changing its subject. Let me take a stab at trying to unite these two subjects. It’s all about the eternal progression. So what happens after you die? Float around on a cloud and sing hymns? I hope not. Are we a finished product at the time of our death? Will we be twinkled to perfection or will it take some time? Will we remain imperfect in heaven? Or will it take us some time to work out our kinks? Do we improve or change in the afterlife?

If the answer is yes, you just might want to accept the law of God if you never have had the chance before.

what happens is either heaven or hell. Heaven is the beatific vision as defined here:

newadvent.org/cathen/08675a.htm

Hell is :

newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

now to your point(s) about finished product, twinkled to perfection, remain imperfect, etc… that would be purgatory for most of those who are heaven bound and is described here:

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

in any case, we do NOT become Gods ourselves with eternal increase who also become Gods and so on and so on. That was Satan’s first temptation. you know, eat the fruit and ye shall be Gods. The other side of this coin is the reverse path where the LDS teach that Heavenly Father was once a man with a God who was once a man, etc. In the Mormon Temple Satan teaches “that is how father gained his power” and “there is no other way”. (see a pattern?) The Bible and even the BoM are clear that this cannot be. There is only one God and he has always been God and he shall be the only God. Our “progression” in truth is realized through the beatific vision where God shares all that he has with us. We experience his divinity without becoming divine ourselves. much like a metal poker placed in a fire will become bright and hot just like the fire but will never be fire itself. It only shares these traits while in the fire. We also only share in God’s divinity when in his presence. But once there it’s a lot more than “floating on clouds”. It is sharing ALL that God has forever. I think that sufficient myself.

THAT IS Gods law. you can read all about it in the Bible. Don’t be fooled by Satan trying to tell you that you can be a God to get you to follow a false prophet to Hell. Quit wasting time in pagan temples performing works for the dead when you can worship the God of the living through service to the live sheep of his fold.

 

[PaulDupre]

It is not true that we do not worship Jesus. The Book of Mormon specifically commands us to worship Jesus:

But as a general rule, we pray to the Father in the name of Jesus, because that is the primary instruction we have received.

Z,
I’m glad to know that you feel free to pray to Jesus.

Here’s a challenge for you. The next time you are called upon to give an opening or closing prayer in Sacrament Meeting, get up there and address the prayer to Jesus, not Heavenly Father. Observe the shock and fear on the faces of the congregation, and the hairy eyeball they will all give you.

Afterwards, when the bishop hauls you to into his office and shuts the door, you can explain your reasoning above to him.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Paul

 

[tequilamac]

Z,
I’m glad to know that you feel free to pray to Jesus.

Here’s a challenge for you. The next time you are called upon to give an opening or closing prayer in Sacrament Meeting, get up there and address the prayer to Jesus, not Heavenly Father. Observe the shock and fear on the faces of the congregation, and the hairy eyeball they will all give you.

Afterwards, when the bishop hauls you to into his office and shuts the door, you can explain your reasoning above to him.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Paul

Ain’t it the truf though.

 

[zerinus]

Z,
I’m glad to know that you feel free to pray to Jesus.

Here’s a challenge for you. The next time you are called upon to give an opening or closing prayer in Sacrament Meeting, get up there and address the prayer to Jesus, not Heavenly Father. Observe the shock and fear on the faces of the congregation, and the hairy eyeball they will all give you.

Afterwards, when the bishop hauls you to into his office and shuts the door, you can explain your reasoning above to him.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Paul

What objections do you have to us addressing our prayers to the Father? Do you think it is wrong for us to address our prayers to our Father in heaven?

zerinus

 

[PaulDupre]

What objections do you have to us addressing our prayers to the Father? Do you think it is wrong for us to address our prayers to our Father in heaven?

zerinus

Of course not. I often address my prayers to my Father in Heaven. But I am also free to pray directly to Jesus, which I do often, especially when asking for forgivness because it is Jesus who forgives our sins and all judgement has been given to the Son. I also pray directly to the Holy Spirit, especially when asking for strength against sin or for help with a problem.

I think that Mormonism is spiritually impoverished because they cannot pray to any member of the trinity they want to. Because the Mormons do not believe in the trinity, they feel that to pray to Jesus would be somehow slighting or taking away from Heavenly Father. Very sad.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

Of course not. I often address my prayers to my Father in Heaven. But I am also free to pray directly to Jesus, which I do often, especially when asking for forgivness because it is Jesus who forgives our sins and all judgement has been given to the Son. I also pray directly to the Holy Spirit, especially when asking for strength against sin or for help with a problem.

I think that Mormonism is spiritually impoverished because they cannot pray to any member of the trinity they want to. Because the Mormons do not believe in the trinity, they feel that to pray to Jesus would be somehow slighting or taking away from Heavenly Father. Very sad.

Paul

I can tell you for sure that we don’t pray to the Holy Spirit, any more than we pray to Mary or the Saints. Anything is possible I guess in a religion that has apostatized form the truth.

zerinus

 

[majick275]

I can tell you for sure that we don’t pray to the Holy Spirit, any more than we pray to Mary or the Saints. Anything is possible I guess in a religion that has apostatized form the truth.

zerinus

which make sit ironic that you show us in the BoM that people prayed directly to Jesus. You even showed us where it commands us to do it. Yet you have also showed us how LDS today don’t do this. You now show us that yo do not worship or pray to the holy spirit…who is apostate?

 

[PaulDupre]

I can tell you for sure that we don’t pray to the Holy Spirit, any more than we pray to Mary or the Saints. Anything is possible I guess in a religion that has apostatized form the truth.

zerinus

Wait a minute, Z. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is just like Mary or another of the saints? I doubt that your leaders would agree with that. Mormonism teaches that the Holy Ghost is a god, even though Mormon gods are just advanced humans.

We Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is God, the third person of the trinity. He is therefore just as worthy of worship as the Father or the Son. No Catholic worships saints, but we do worship the Holy Spirit.

Paul

 

[zerinus]

Wait a minute, Z. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit is just like Mary or another of the saints? I doubt that your leaders would agree with that. Mormonism teaches that the Holy Ghost is a god, even though Mormon gods are just advanced humans.

We Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is God, the third person of the trinity. He is therefore just as worthy of worship as the Father or the Son. No Catholic worships saints, but we do worship the Holy Spirit.

Paul

There is no scriptural precedent for praying to the Holy Spirit, any more than there is for praying to Mary or the Saints.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings

 

[perez639]

I am amazed that these young men spend two years at an age **when most young men **are doing drugs, drinking excessively and generally raising havoc among society. I am amazed at their faith, their ability to pray from the heart and preach from the heart.

I find this statement of yours to be extremely uncharitable to the **MANY **young men that I know who do not take part in these unvirtuous vices. I dated a lds boy, almost married him and all he ever talked about was how superior he was because he belonged to “the one true church.” It is quite a far-fetched guess you are making to say they are sooo much better then other young men. Let me tell you from personal experience, they are NOT. The only reason they are so glad to go on a mission is because they KNOW that one day they will be a God. Why is it a good thing if such a lie is spread to the unsuspecting or those who know little about the history or questionable practices of the religion.

Their knowledge of the scriptures is to be envied by any religion.

Take a look at the wisdom so many wise and knowledgable Catholics and even those who are not provide to this forum about scripture. I If you are referring to the BoM scriptures just about everything in there contradicts the KJV which they pay little heed to. Envy? I dont think so.

We need more citizens like the LDS in the world to set an example for the rest of us who have lost the concept of Love thy Neighbor.
Grandpa Don

So that more people can learn that God is a man? Most atrocious thing I have ever heard! If anything we need to continuing exposing the LDS religion for what it *really *is.

Peace Be With You All,

Regis University Student

 

[valient_Lucy]

I can tell you for sure that we don’t pray to the Holy Spirit, any more than we pray to Mary or the Saints. Anything is possible I guess in a religion that has apostatized form the truth.

zerinus

Don’t you believe the Holy Spirit to be God and the Third Person of the Trinity? If so, why not pray to Him?

 

[majick275]

There is no scriptural precedent for praying to the Holy Spirit, any more than there is for praying to Mary or the Saints.

zerinus

aaah but you DID provide LDS scriptural support for praying directly to Jesus. So why don’t LDS pray to him?