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redrosetea
Guest
The manner in which you post suggests youth to me
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Zundrah
Guest
That would make you 49 years (and 9 months) more experience on catholicism than me!
Did nuns do it too?
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redrosetea
Guest
Would I try it? I think I would have to be someone far holier than I am to try it
I never say never…but I have no interest in it at present…I am far too selfish
I never say never…but I have no interest in it at present…I am far too selfish
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Zundrah
Guest
HEY!
Aww, I think you would like to. Too selfish? You are encouraging the act! But where can you buy a whip these days?
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redrosetea
Guest
some did or they might even still…I think some might do it more as a symbolic act with soft blows…The people that belong to Opus day wear a strap around their thigh for a bit that sort of is prickery for a bit to observe this actThat would make you 49 years (and 9 months) more experience on catholicism than me!
Did nuns do it too?
I can’t remember what it is called
People wore or still wear a hair shirt too ,which is not comfortable…Pope Paul the VI did this…The closer people are to God the more willing they become to share in Christ sufferings for a bit…these people are often mystics
It isn’t for everyone but those that do it should be treated with respect and not like they are mentally ill…They are far from it
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redrosetea
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You needn’t be insulting…I am trying to help you and for that I get insults…I am done with youHEY!
Aww, I think you would like to. Too selfish? You are encouraging the act! But where can you buy a whip these days?
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Zundrah
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Okay, but I have to go to college classes now. I hope to talk later. There is obviously alot that has slipped my knowledge in the catholic history and practice.
No no redrosetea, I’m not insulting you at all. I was just joking with you, not at you. You have got the wrong end of the stick. I hope you will come back to this thread. I’ve found you very good at explaining things.
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Veridical16
Guest
I too, have hard time understanding this practice completely, but I don’t judge it so much…since it seems to be evidently long practiced throughout the church by some saints…
Lining the mortification up with Lent and Jesus’ own bodily sufferings, as well as his 40 day fast…I can understand this practice a little more when I think about fasting,
but it’s pretty hard to hear when you are from the outside. Even I as a Catholic, I now “get” the feeling of what non-believers might feel, when they see the core, pure practices such as these (or rather, basic practices, that we Catholics take for granted) but self-mortification …seems hard to bare witness to…
But it also seems to make sense, if you want to suffer with Christ, or offer up sufferings for Christ for others, that some who are spiritually guided would do this…
Reminds me of when any Christian, who is in communion God with his grace, prays for a trial they can bear, to help save souls…
Lining the mortification up with Lent and Jesus’ own bodily sufferings, as well as his 40 day fast…I can understand this practice a little more when I think about fasting,
but it’s pretty hard to hear when you are from the outside. Even I as a Catholic, I now “get” the feeling of what non-believers might feel, when they see the core, pure practices such as these (or rather, basic practices, that we Catholics take for granted) but self-mortification …seems hard to bare witness to…
But it also seems to make sense, if you want to suffer with Christ, or offer up sufferings for Christ for others, that some who are spiritually guided would do this…
Reminds me of when any Christian, who is in communion God with his grace, prays for a trial they can bear, to help save souls…
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garyr
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. . . . . “He would punish himself and in particular just before he ordained bishops and priests,” he said. . . . . .
Hmmm, that sounds like a holy man seeking more that just self-purification but purification for the whole of priesthood . . . to me. . . a pope very much in tune with the needs of the church!
Hmmm, that sounds like a holy man seeking more that just self-purification but purification for the whole of priesthood . . . to me. . . a pope very much in tune with the needs of the church!
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JReducation
Guest
This situation is very different. The driving force here is not the desire to hurt oneself, but the desire to be united with the Master. It is an act of love, not an act of self-hatred. And it is done under supervision of a spiritual director.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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giesan1
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Thanks for your reply. I guess I just have to trust the church on this… between God and the person, an offering can be meritorious. We still have the option of the “little way”.
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JReducation
Guest
In my community we do it every Friday. It is not a universal practice among religioius. It is up to each community to decide whether or not to implement it. The Gospel and the Church call for penances. The most common are fasting, abstinence, longer periods of prayer, greater works of charity.That would make you 49 years (and 9 months) more experience on catholicism than me!
Did nuns do it too?
However, the use of the discipline, that’s what it’s called, is meant to help you erradicate faults and cultivate the practice of virtue. That’s why it is called the discipline. To get rid of your faults and develop virtues requires a lifetime of discipline. The gesture is mostly symbollic in the sense that it is not designed to do permanent harm to the body. The rules are very strict. No one who has a psychological condition such as anxiety or depression may do it. Also, no one who is sick may do it. It is very regulated by spiritual directors and by superiors for those who have a superior. No one should engage in this practice without the permission and supervision of someone trained in the spiritual life, not even a pope can do this without a spiritual director. For more than a century now the official spiritual director of the papal household has been a Capuchin Franciscan brother. No, not the same guy.
He is the official preacher of the papal household, including the preacher to the pope and the official spiritual guide. So there is vigilance over these things. Popes don’t just pull out a whip and beat themselves to death. This is a special act that requires special permission from one’s spiritual guide or one’s superior. It has to be severe enough to awaken one’s sense of suffering with Christ and temperate enough to avoid doing damage.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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flameburns623
Guest
Thanks to this poster on the clarification of the practice.In my community we do it every Friday. It is not a universal practice among religioius. It is up to each community to decide whether or not to implement it. The Gospel and the Church call for penances. The most common are fasting, abstinence, longer periods of prayer, greater works of charity.
However, the use of the discipline, that’s what it’s called, is meant to help you erradicate faults and cultivate the practice of virtue. That’s why it is called the discipline. To get rid of your faults and develop virtues requires a lifetime of discipline. The gesture is mostly symbollic in the sense that it is not designed to do permanent harm to the body. The rules are very strict. No one who has a psychological condition such as anxiety or depression may do it. Also, no one who is sick may do it. It is very regulated by spiritual directors and by superiors for those who have a superior. No one should engage in this practice without the permission and supervision of someone trained in the spiritual life, not even a pope can do this without a spiritual director. For more than a century now the official spiritual director of the papal household has been a Capuchin Franciscan brother. No, not the same guy.
He is the official preacher of the papal household, including the preacher to the pope and the official spiritual guide. So there is vigilance over these things. Popes don’t just pull out a whip and beat themselves to death. This is a special act that requires special permission from one’s spiritual guide or one’s superior. It has to be severe enough to awaken one’s sense of suffering with Christ and temperate enough to avoid doing damage.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
Since it has come up in this thread–I assume that someone with a past history of self-mutilation would rarely, if ever, be given permission by a competent spiritual director to mortify themselves in this fashion.
By the same principle that one given over to anorexia would not be encouraged to excessive fasting.
Other forms of mortification or penance would be identified for such persons, I venture to guess, lest the compulsive disorder be restimulated to the harm of the individual.
Other than this, it might be well advised to keep in mind this story is not necessarily properly substantiated–it may not be true.
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Zundrah
Guest
Wait a minite, you mean to say that you have tried it?In my community we do it every Friday. It is not a universal practice among religioius. It is up to each community to decide whether or not to implement it. The Gospel and the Church call for penances. The most common are fasting, abstinence, longer periods of prayer, greater works of charity.
However, the use of the discipline, that’s what it’s called, is meant to help you erradicate faults and cultivate the practice of virtue. That’s why it is called the discipline. To get rid of your faults and develop virtues requires a lifetime of discipline. The gesture is mostly symbollic in the sense that it is not designed to do permanent harm to the body. The rules are very strict. No one who has a psychological condition such as anxiety or depression may do it. Also, no one who is sick may do it. It is very regulated by spiritual directors and by superiors for those who have a superior. No one should engage in this practice without the permission and supervision of someone trained in the spiritual life, not even a pope can do this without a spiritual director. For more than a century now the official spiritual director of the papal household has been a Capuchin Franciscan brother. No, not the same guy.
He is the official preacher of the papal household, including the preacher to the pope and the official spiritual guide. So there is vigilance over these things. Popes don’t just pull out a whip and beat themselves to death. This is a special act that requires special permission from one’s spiritual guide or one’s superior. It has to be severe enough to awaken one’s sense of suffering with Christ and temperate enough to avoid doing damage.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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redrosetea
Guest
It certainly is true if Br JR says it is…He posts of Cardinal Sean O’Malley’s blog and is a personal friend of his
I suggest you stop slandering respected members of this community, by implying they are lying
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Nordar
Guest
I just keep thinking how much he loved God! and how my faith needs to be much deeper!
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JReducation
Guest
Yes, but the idea is to remind yourself of the need to convert your life, not to hurt yourself.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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FickleFreckled
Guest
I have to admit that this disturbs me a great deal. I think I have every book written about Pope John Paul; he was my hero, he was most instrumental in bringing me back into the Church. This is actually causing me to have something of a crisis, which I thought I was past. These kinds of things are what led me to leave the Church at a very young age to begin with. Jesus didn’t whip Himself. He didn’t nail His own hands to the cross. It was done to Him. If martyrdom is imminent, a person can rejoice in it but to hurt ones’ self deliberately is not imitating Christ. Accepting suffering at the hands of others is one thing; self-inflicted is quite another. To hurt ones’ self deliberately is to cause damage to the body that was a gift from God. Pope John Paul wrote at length about respect for the body, which is sacred. I don’t even want to think about it. I’m reading a book right now written by his assistant and I can’t bring myself to go back to it.
However, my own feelings aside, it happens in other religions as well. Some Muslims whip themselves with whips and chains during Ramadan, the month of atonement. I wonder, would we think that’s healthy if it’s Muslims? Or the Hindu monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Viet nam war? Or Native American tribes who cut off pieces of their bodies to mourn a death or practise atonement?
I’m sorry, truly, to God, to Pope John Paul whom I love, and to all of you who think it’s ok, but it has made me angry and hurt. I think it’s barbaric and inherently sick.
However, my own feelings aside, it happens in other religions as well. Some Muslims whip themselves with whips and chains during Ramadan, the month of atonement. I wonder, would we think that’s healthy if it’s Muslims? Or the Hindu monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Viet nam war? Or Native American tribes who cut off pieces of their bodies to mourn a death or practise atonement?
I’m sorry, truly, to God, to Pope John Paul whom I love, and to all of you who think it’s ok, but it has made me angry and hurt. I think it’s barbaric and inherently sick.
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flameburns623
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You have elected to employ some remarkably loaded language in characterizing my post, which I have highlighted in my citation of you, above.
I think the mild and courteous tenor of my post deserved no such assault.
I accused no one of lying. I merely advised reserve of judgement.
I actually expressed gratitude to the poster whom I cited in my earlier post.
In any case, I asked a question, respectfully:
For clarity’s sake I have modified my punctuation and emphasized that I was extending a query.
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redrosetea
Guest
I don’t think it is courteous at all to say about someone they might not be telling the truth, publicly, after they posted something about themselves, and their religious practices
If you had doubts about them why not talk to them privately instead of posting something this rude?
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