JPII "whipped himself in remorse for sins" [CNAU]

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You point out that this information was brought forth by two people who lived with John Paul ll.
I have no doubt what you say is correct. My question then becomes, Is there no rule of confidentiality for those who surround the Pope so closely? I understand very well why Discipline is practiced.I practiced a few forms of it myself.I am not surprised at all that a man such as John Paul ll would practice it.I do wonder about the confidentiality issue however.
As I said in my last post, why not end this thread? Not to hide anything but to not confuse those who have difficulty understanding the practice.I really do believe this thread including it’s title has the potential to do more harm than good.I respect the one who initiated the thread but I must say it could have perhaps been written in a less dramatic way.Pope John Paul ll was a great man.Our Pastor has made very positive comments about him in his sermons on several occasions.God Bless.NLM
If you read some of the past posts of the OP, you will see that he/she is very anti- VII, anti-. Pope John Paul and anti-OF.

He started this thread to denigrate John Paul II. No other reason. I do not think it should be closed.

It should be used to educate those who are not familiar with the penitential disciplines, as JR and others are trying to do.

The OP started this thread for “shock value”. Let us use it for learning about an ancient practice of many Saints.
 
I assume that, given I was physically abused as a child, I would be disqualified from ever using the discipline? I’m glad to know there are such strict rules regarding who may and who may not do it, I don’t think it would serve any useful purpose in my case, and I’m glad its not something expected of everyone. I always (previously!) considered this sort of practice as disordered or “morbid” for lack of a better word but I think I’m understanding it better now.

Thanks so much, especially to Br JR, for this discussion and great explanation of the practice. I’ve learned a lot from reading this thread.
 
I am not suprised in any way what so ever that our Great Pope John Paul 2 used Corporal mortification in his spiritual life.
Actually before reading this I would have been willing to put everything I owned on a guess that he used Corporal mortification. I dont know why but I just knew.
What I do find disturbing is some of the comments about John Paul being sick,vile,disgusting, That is very worrying to me.
I think many posters views and minds have been modernized along with the world. He was striving for holiness while uniting his suffering with our Lord Jesus Christ.
Mother Teresa and Saint Therese of Lisieux both used Corporal mortification. Has your view on them changed aswell ?
Let me end by saying ’ They where doing something right to reach the level of spiritual perfection they did’

John Paul 2 We Love You
 
If you read some of the past posts of the OP, you will see that he/she is very anti- VII, anti-. Pope John Paul and anti-OF.

He started this thread to denigrate John Paul II. No other reason. I do not think it should be closed.

It should be used to educate those who are not familiar with the penitential disciplines, as JR and others are trying to do.

The OP started this thread for “shock value”. Let us use it for learning about an ancient practice of many Saints.
You may well be correct in saying we should continue the thread for educational purposes.What I found so difficult was how John Paul ll was being portrayed.God Bless. NLM
 
But surely if the OP is very Pre Vatican 2 they should have less of a problem with Corporal mortification than more modern minded Catholics ?
 
You point out that this information was brought forth by two people who lived with John Paul ll.
I have no doubt what you say is correct. My question then becomes, Is there no rule of confidentiality for those who surround the Pope so closely?
This is a valid question that deserves an answer. Confidentiality must always be observed and there are things that cannot and never come to the table when you’re postulating a cause for canonization. The confessor may only testify that the person regularly used the sacrament. But he may never reveal the content of the confessions. The spiritual director may testify that the person used this ministry, that he was a holy person, and in cases such as corporal penances, he/she must swear that she/he knew and approved. Neither the confessor or spiritual director may reveal the content of their conversations with the candidate.

As to the other facts regarding the person’s life, they remain confidential until the cause for canonization is engaged. Then everyone who knows something good or bad about the person has a moral obligation to come forward and make it public. Remember, this is a matter of faith that the Sacred Congregation is dealing with. It must be very careful to make sure that the truth prevails. In this case, those who lived with John Paul have a moral duty to tell everything that they know about the man or that they suspect. It is the role of the Congregation to scrutinize the reports for veracity.

What we don’t know, since we’re getting this information second or third-hand, we don’t know if the Sacred Congregation accepted this testimony and validated it or not. All we have a news report that two people who lived with the Holy Father testified to this.

The bottom line is always the same. The study is complete now. The Sacred Congregation is convinced that the man led a heroic Christian life and deserves to be canonized and they have sent this recommendation to the Holy Father. We’ll know at Christmas or at Easter, if their recommendation and the reasons are going to be accepted or not. If the Holy Father declares John Paul, venerable, then the deed is done, meaning that the Holy Father believes that John Paul lived a heroic Christian life. Something catastrophic would have to happen for the pope to rescind his confirmaton.

Moving along, I don’t know if I would close this thread. It is a good opportunity for people to learn more about the mystical life and the spirituality of penance. What is most important is to learn and remember that corporal penances must always be a spritual act and may never do physical harm to the body. Our own founder was guilty of this sin, for which he asks forgiveness at the end of his life. Francis realized that he had gone beyond mortification of the body. He had hurt his body. He publicly asks for forgivenss of “Brother ***”. Given his entire life, it is safe to assume that he also took it to confession. The beauty of it is that he realizes the difference between corporal discipline and abuse, he uses his realization to teach his brothers and those who follow his live. The dignity of the body must never be underestimated or violated. When you do this, you’re offending the dignity of the person. This would be a sin against the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. The Father bestows humanity upon the Son as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, humanity is holy and good. By logical succession, the body is holy and good. Like all things that are mortal, it must be disciplined, but never abused.

In studying the holiness of a candidate for canonization, such reports are taken very seriously. The question that the Defender of the Faith puts on the table is a very valid one. Did the person practice prudence and discipline when mortifying his body or did he abuse his body? Since the case has not been closed and sent for approval, we can assume that the responses were satisfactory and positive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
But surely if the OP is very Pre Vatican 2 they should have less of a problem with Corporal mortification than more modern minded Catholics ?
The problem is that human beings tend to want things their way. Why do you think that the Protestants have so many problems? When individuals are left to decide what is good and bad, what is truth and error, what is tradition and modernism, you have chaos. Thank God the Catholic Church is not a democracy. Even with centralization, we still have crises and arguments about every little thing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This is a valid question that deserves an answer. Confidentiality must always be observed and there are things that cannot and never come to the table when you’re postulating a cause for canonization. The confessor may only testify that the person regularly used the sacrament. But he may never reveal the content of the confessions. The spiritual director may testify that the person used this ministry, that he was a holy person, and in cases such as corporal penances, he/she must swear that she/he knew and approved. Neither the confessor or spiritual director may reveal the content of their conversations with the candidate.

As to the other facts regarding the person’s life, they remain confidential until the cause for canonization is engaged. Then everyone who knows something good or bad about the person has a moral obligation to come forward and make it public. Remember, this is a matter of faith that the Sacred Congregation is dealing with. It must be very careful to make sure that the truth prevails. In this case, those who lived with John Paul have a moral duty to tell everything that they know about the man or that they suspect. It is the role of the Congregation to scrutinize the reports for veracity.

What we don’t know, since we’re getting this information second or third-hand, we don’t know if the Sacred Congregation accepted this testimony and validated it or not. All we have a news report that two people who lived with the Holy Father testified to this.

The bottom line is always the same. The study is complete now. The Sacred Congregation is convinced that the man led a heroic Christian life and deserves to be canonized and they have sent this recommendation to the Holy Father. We’ll know at Christmas or at Easter, if their recommendation and the reasons are going to be accepted or not. If the Holy Father declares John Paul, venerable, then the deed is done, meaning that the Holy Father believes that John Paul lived a heroic Christian life. Something catastrophic would have to happen for the pope to rescind his confirmaton.

Moving along, I don’t know if I would close this thread. It is a good opportunity for people to learn more about the mystical life and the spirituality of penance. What is most important is to learn and remember that corporal penances must always be a spritual act and may never do physical harm to the body. Our own founder was guilty of this sin, for which he asks forgiveness at the end of his life. Francis realized that he had gone beyond mortification of the body. He had hurt his body. He publicly asks for forgivenss of “Brother ***”. Given his entire life, it is safe to assume that he also took it to confession. The beauty of it is that he realizes the difference between corporal discipline and abuse, he uses his realization to teach his brothers and those who follow his live. The dignity of the body must never be underestimated or violated. When you do this, you’re offending the dignity of the person. This would be a sin against the Incarnation of Jesus Christ. The Father bestows humanity upon the Son as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, humanity is holy and good. By logical succession, the body is holy and good. Like all things that are mortal, it must be disciplined, but never abused.

In studying the holiness of a candidate for canonization, such reports are taken very seriously. The question that the Defender of the Faith puts on the table is a very valid one. Did the person practice prudence and discipline when mortifying his body or did he abuse his body? Since the case has not been closed and sent for approval, we can assume that the responses were satisfactory and positive.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
Thank you Brother. God Bless. NLM
 
But surely if the OP is very Pre Vatican 2 they should have less of a problem with Corporal mortification than more modern minded Catholics ?
Actually, it was me who started this thread but the moderator messed around with it somehow.
 
Okay, but what is the youngest for a person to do it, do you think?
That’s a good question. To tell the truth, I don’t know. I would say that age is not as important as spiritual and emotional maturity. I certainly would not allow anyone who is not an adult to engage in such practices. Age is a tough one here. My experience has been limited to religioius life. Back in the mid 1960s and early 70s people entered religious life right after high school. Novices were usually 18 and they did engage in such practices. Today, religious do not engage in such practices until after solemn vows. The youngest would be 25.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
That’s a good question. To tell the truth, I don’t know. I would say that age is not as important as spiritual and emotional maturity. I certainly would not allow anyone who is not an adult to engage in such practices. Age is a tough one here. My experience has been limited to religioius life. Back in the mid 1960s and early 70s people entered religious life right after high school. Novices were usually 18 and they did engage in such practices. Today, religious do not engage in such practices until after solemn vows. The youngest would be 25.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
When did it start? Does this have Pagan origin?
 
I know of saints as youths who engaged in corporal mortification of the kind exhibited here.

One does not have to be of any significant level of holiness to do these things, far from it. Some kind of bodily mortification is quite necessary to make progress from the start.

In truth, all that matters, is that it is done properly, and that the interior motivations are correct, at any age past the age of reason.

*‘We give our youth to the devil, and the remains of our life to the Good God, who is so good that He deigns to be content with even that. . . but, happily, everyone does not do so. A great lady has been here, of one of the first families in France; she went away this morning. She is scarcely three-and-twenty, and she is rich-very rich indeed. . . She has offered herself in sacrifice to the good God for the expiation of sins, and for the conversion of sinners. She wears a girdle all armed with iron points; she mortifies herself in a thousand ways; and her parents know nothing of it. She is white as a sheet of paper. Hers is a beautiful soul, very pleasing to the good God, such as are still to be found now and then in the world, and they prevent the world from coming to an end.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars*

In the Rule of St. Benedict, corporal discipline is prescribed as a punishment for both youths and the aged. The scriptures say, ‘spare the rod and spoil the child’

So there is no general reason why anyone of any age cannot engage in it. Now there will be individual cases of course, where certain kinds of it cannot be entered into, for example, because of ill health, etc. These are as always only individual exceptions…

Sometimes these exceptions can be overcome as the soul makes progress, sometimes they are lasting and cannot be.

Some kind of bodily mortification can always be practiced, but not all kinds can always be practiced.

Given one of the poster’s here’s previous comments against these practices, or making it only symbolic, I am wondering from the latest comments if some slight conversion hasn’t occurred here. I certainly hope that is the case. 🙂

In the beginning I believe good starts are eating foods you find highly distasteful, striking your breast quite heartily and painfully while saying, ‘Lord have mercy’, and the various traditional practices, such as sleeping on a hard bed, showers with water of a temperature not preferable, the use of a bamboo cane, painful belts, etc. all these things can be used to do not the slightest real harm but be quite discomforting or temporarily painful and so penitential.

In Singapore caning is still given as punishment for criminals. I can only think if the U.S. still believed in punishment for crime, there would be far less crime. Crime without punishment, with only rehabilitation, denies too much justice, it is not a mercy.

We cannot only wait for purgatory to pay the price for sins, we have to do penance in this life. Without penance there is no salvation.

People go to boxing matches and watch the boxers have a great time in a fight, and enjoy watching the battle. Boxing is quite painful, but the participants themselves love it. We excuse it utterly.

How unfair of the world to then cast painful spiritual pursuits always in a negative light. I can only see the devil at work there, with such an effeminate reaction. We need courageous holiness, and true penitential spirits aware of the need to make some sign of reparation to divine justice.

Ascetical practices of painful mortification can be easily understood for the sake of penance and for the sake of overcoming the body’s too great control of our life.

It takes some hedonism to see all pain as evil, and only pain, and all pleasure as good.

*‘Let us read the lives of the saints; let us consider the penances which they performed, and blush to be so effeminate and so fearful of mortifying our flesh.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori
*
 
When did it start? Does this have Pagan origin?
It dates back to Judaism. But what we have to remember is that it was always symbollic of an interior desire for conversion. It was never meant to cause injury. During the Middle Ages and even later, there were people, even saints, who abused the practice. They went overboard. They eventually had to ask forgiveness for their excess. As I posted above, our holy Father Francis was one of those people. Interestingly enough, he never promoted it among his brothers. It does not show up in the rule or any of his writings. We know that he did this because Thomas of Celano writes about it.

But we also know that he discouraged all forms of corporal penances that caused the person to feel pain or suffer. The early friars narrate stories of Francis feeding friars during the fast, because they cried in hunger. He did not want the fast to be a cause of pain. It was to be spiritual exercise.

We see saints like Clare who would sleep on a board with a pad, but would not allow the nuns to do so. They had straw matresses. A straw mattress is not the most comfortabel thing, but it was the second best mattress that they had in those days. The best was stuffed with wool.

Teresa of Avila used the discipline, yet she wrote her sisters not to do so unless they were granted permission to do so.

The reason that the masters of the spiritual life were very vigilant over fasts, the use of the discipline and hair shirts was because of the false belief that some people had that these practices in themselves were meritorious. What happened with many people was that they fell into heresy. The idea that these practices were meritorious in and of themselves stimulated their intensity thinking that the greater the penance, the greater the graces. Of course we know that this is not true. It does not work this way. Penance is not an accounting system. Penance is about conversion of heart.

Shin mentioned that St. Benedict wrote about physical punishment. It is true that he did. But he was mistaken. However, we must understand that Benedict is a product of his time. This was the way that children were disciplined in his day. As we move forward in history we’ll find St. John Bosco and St. Francis de Sales contradict St. Benedict. St. John Bosco was very clear that the students in their schools were not to be physically punished. Physical punishment is refuted in the Salesan tradition. The Visitation nuns and the Salesian men never used coroporal penances either in the community or with their students.

The key to a good spiritual life, as St. Francis de Sales would later write in his famous work Introduction to the Devout LIfe, the key to holiness is gentleness. Saints who preceded him knew this and did not apply or expect such stern practices from their followers.

To go back to the original question, where did it start, it dates back to the ancient Jews. But we must be careful, because it has been abused, even by saints, as other saints have been quick to point out.

In our own novitiate we teach our novices that the discipline is essentially a symbol, not a physical punishment. The real challenge is conversion to perfect charity. That’s why we do not allow anyone who is not in perpetual vows and a proven mature person to engage in the discipline. Even the fast is very regulated. I’m reminded of Mother Teresa of Calcutta. When she founded her society she wanted the sisters to eat only rice. Very quickly her spiritual adivisors and the Medical Mission Sisters who had trained her in nursing explained to her that her sisters would need to be physically fit and healthy to do the work that she proposed. Mother quickly rewrote the chapter on penance in her constitutions and took away the limitations on food that the sisters can eat. Even the saints can be imprudent at times. But what is different about them is that they acknowledge their imprudence and they do not encouraqge others to follow it. Many saints actually help others practice self-control and avoid romanticizing spiritual disciplines.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I have to admit that this disturbs me a great deal. I think I have every book written about Pope John Paul; he was my hero, he was most instrumental in bringing me back into the Church. This is actually causing me to have something of a crisis, which I thought I was past. These kinds of things are what led me to leave the Church at a very young age to begin with. Jesus didn’t whip Himself. He didn’t nail His own hands to the cross. It was done to Him. If martyrdom is imminent, a person can rejoice in it but to hurt ones’ self deliberately is not imitating Christ. Accepting suffering at the hands of others is one thing; self-inflicted is quite another. To hurt ones’ self deliberately is to cause damage to the body that was a gift from God. Pope John Paul wrote at length about respect for the body, which is sacred. I don’t even want to think about it. I’m reading a book right now written by his assistant and I can’t bring myself to go back to it.

However, my own feelings aside, it happens in other religions as well. Some Muslims whip themselves with whips and chains during Ramadan, the month of atonement. I wonder, would we think that’s healthy if it’s Muslims? Or the Hindu monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Viet nam war? Or Native American tribes who cut off pieces of their bodies to mourn a death or practise atonement?

I’m sorry, truly, to God, to Pope John Paul whom I love, and to all of you who think it’s ok, but it has made me angry and hurt. I think it’s barbaric and inherently sick.
I read this post, and I can identify with these statements.😦 This is practice that I don’t understand much. 😦 Obviously, Pope John Paul was a good and holy man, I just don’t understand.

I don’t understand redemptive suffering very much, I guess in a very rudimentary way. I’m a mom, and when my children have been sick, I’ve often wanted to take away their sufferings. My baby was born 11 weeks early and spent close to 2 and 1/2 months in the hospital, I hope that his suffering had merit.

Does it mean that JPII, loved the Lord in such a tangible way, that he wanted to take away some of His suffering? Would that be the reason he became so ill?

Anyway, I wish I didn’t know about this story. It has put some doubt in my mind. 😦 And has reminded me how little understanding I have of our faith. :o
 
I know of saints as youths who engaged in corporal mortification of the kind exhibited here.

One does not have to be of any significant level of holiness to do these things, far from it. Some kind of bodily mortification is quite necessary to make progress from the start.

In truth, all that matters, is that it is done properly, and that the interior motivations are correct, at any age past the age of reason.

*‘We give our youth to the devil, and the remains of our life to the Good God, who is so good that He deigns to be content with even that. . . but, happily, everyone does not do so. A great lady has been here, of one of the first families in France; she went away this morning. She is scarcely three-and-twenty, and she is rich-very rich indeed. . . She has offered herself in sacrifice to the good God for the expiation of sins, and for the conversion of sinners. She wears a girdle all armed with iron points; she mortifies herself in a thousand ways; and her parents know nothing of it. She is white as a sheet of paper. Hers is a beautiful soul, very pleasing to the good God, such as are still to be found now and then in the world, and they prevent the world from coming to an end.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars*

In the Rule of St. Benedict, corporal discipline is prescribed as a punishment for both youths and the aged. The scriptures say, ‘spare the rod and spoil the child’

So there is no general reason why anyone of any age cannot engage in it. Now there will be individual cases of course, where certain kinds of it cannot be entered into, for example, because of ill health, etc. These are as always only individual exceptions…

Sometimes these exceptions can be overcome as the soul makes progress, sometimes they are lasting and cannot be.

Some kind of bodily mortification can always be practiced, but not all kinds can always be practiced.

Given one of the poster’s here’s previous comments against these practices, or making it only symbolic, I am wondering from the latest comments if some slight conversion hasn’t occurred here. I certainly hope that is the case. 🙂

In the beginning I believe good starts are eating foods you find highly distasteful, striking your breast quite heartily and painfully while saying, ‘Lord have mercy’, and the various traditional practices, such as sleeping on a hard bed, showers with water of a temperature not preferable, the use of a bamboo cane, painful belts, etc. all these things can be used to do not the slightest real harm but be quite discomforting or temporarily painful and so penitential.

In Singapore caning is still given as punishment for criminals. I can only think if the U.S. still believed in punishment for crime, there would be far less crime. Crime without punishment, with only rehabilitation, denies too much justice, it is not a mercy.

We cannot only wait for purgatory to pay the price for sins, we have to do penance in this life. Without penance there is no salvation.

People go to boxing matches and watch the boxers have a great time in a fight, and enjoy watching the battle. Boxing is quite painful, but the participants themselves love it. We excuse it utterly.

How unfair of the world to then cast painful spiritual pursuits always in a negative light. I can only see the devil at work there, with such an effeminate reaction. We need courageous holiness, and true penitential spirits aware of the need to make some sign of reparation to divine justice.

Ascetical practices of painful mortification can be easily understood for the sake of penance and for the sake of overcoming the body’s too great control of our life.

It takes some hedonism to see all pain as evil, and only pain, and all pleasure as good.

*‘Let us read the lives of the saints; let us consider the penances which they performed, and blush to be so effeminate and so fearful of mortifying our flesh.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori
*
Wow, that must have taken ages to type! I have to thank you for all of your information given here, you have been a great help.
 
Wow, that must have taken ages to type! I have to thank you for all of your information given here, you have been a great help.
You’re welcome. I type quickly, and have a collection of the works of the saints, so it is nothing.

Bodily mortification is easy to begin for anyone, and essential to spiritual progress. 🙂

If at first it seems too irritating, you need to pray more and acquire a more constant spiritual love of God. Then the penances become sources of happiness, not frustration, as you realize your life is being lived for God’s sake in ways that have true value, a genuinely virtuous sacrifice.
 
You’re welcome. I type quickly, and have a collection of the works of the saints, so it is nothing.

Bodily mortification is easy to begin for anyone, and essential to spiritual progress. 🙂

If at first it seems too irritating, you need to pray more and acquire a more constant spiritual love of God. Then the penances become sources of happiness, not frustration, as you realize your life is being lived for God’s sake in ways that have true value, a genuinely virtuous sacrifice.
I thinks you is a parishioner. 🍿
 
You’re welcome. I type quickly, and have a collection of the works of the saints, so it is nothing.

Bodily mortification is easy to begin for anyone, and essential to spiritual progress. 🙂

If at first it seems too irritating, you need to pray more and acquire a more constant spiritual love of God. Then the penances become sources of happiness, not frustration, as you realize your life is being lived for God’s sake in ways that have true value, a genuinely virtuous sacrifice.
I would suggest a lot of caution Shin and I’ll explain myself. I don’t know if this is a phenomenon where you are, but it certainly is where I am. We have many young people and not so young who are into what I call “spiritual fads”. Some are even Catholic. They pick up stuff like this and think it’s “cool” and they do themselves a great deal of psychological and spiritual harm.

Just last week I had a young man, a very nice fellow, ask me how he could be a mystic like St. Teresa of Avila. He had read her works and was very much into her theology. But he failed to understand that the mystical state is niether a given for holiness, nor common. It is a gift that is given to some. He was forcing himself to have mystical experiences. You could tell that they were self-induced, because the outcome was not the usual that one finds in the mystics. He was very confused and very scrupulous. The one thing that is common to the mystics is that they have a great sense of love and inner peace, even when their emotions are in turmoil. The best modern example that I can think of is Mother Teresa. She never loses her inner peace and inner focus, though her senses feel nothing.

Anyway, to get back on track here, it’s important that we don’t suggest this to people without being their spiritual directors. Most spiritual directors do not recommend these practices to people who do not have the proper spiritual and psychological maturity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I found this brief comment made by Pope Benedict about Pope John Paul II. It’s very interesting that he encourages the Polish people to follow the life and teachings of Pope John Paul II on their road to holiness. It’s almost a promotion of “devotion” to John Paul.

Benedict XVI
“May the example of his life and teachings strengthen us in faith and inspiration of the road to sainthood. May God bless you.”

A road which may be pretty short since there’s talk the late pontiff could be beatified within the next several weeks.

romereports.com/palio/modules.php?t=Faith-&–Reason–The-Pope-takes-up-the-debate-during-general-audience&name=News&file=article&newlang=english&sid=1161

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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