Judaism and Catholicism ... the connections or the dissociations

[CeelosDeznos]

I do not have all that much knowledge because there are some diverse groups within Messianic Judaism…It is vague because it is diverse.

As a Jewish Christian I can concur and affirm this statement.

“Messianic Judaism” is a movement, made up of religious groups of Christians which claim a connection to Judaism, either personally or religiously or both.

As a whole, they are generally seen as part of Evangelical Christianity, but this is not exclusive. The movement covers everything from Christian groups that consist of Jews who are Torah-observant who allow Gentile Christians to worship alongside them to similar groups that demand Torah-observance as a requisite to salvation for Jewish and Gentile Christians alike. It has been estimated that as a whole the Messianic Jewish movement consists of only 40% ethnic Jews and 60% Gentiles, but definitive demographics are hard to come by. The form of Christianity practiced by them, however, is strictly Protestant in nature and often Fundamentalist in both Christian and Jewish terms.

 

[jcrichton]

Of course, Christianity is monotheistic (otherwise, I guess I’d be calling myself a polytheist, which is not true). Well, I’m not sure about “‘those Catholics’” writing any sort of uninspired books or anything. There are many outsider movements that try, or have tried, to revive a sort of Christian practice closer to Judaism (such as the Christadelphians) which they think “fits” in with the early Church.

It’s not really “best” or “worst.” I merely utilized that to say that it can be either end of a spectrum – Christianity or some place outside of it yet not within Judaism. The theology seems to be closer to some Protestants, like how they utilize sola scriptura and some other stuff that doesn’t seem to fit with Judaism (most Jewish groups use the Talmud and other things that might be analogous to Tradition).

I do not have all that much knowledge because there are some diverse groups within Messianic Judaism. You have groups that are pretty much Protestant but for some reason follow the ceremonial laws of the Torah to groups that are sort of like “Arianism-Judaism” (like the House of Yahweh).

It is vague because it is diverse, much like new religious movements or like neopaganism.

Thank you!
I’m a dinosaur (and lazy to boot) when it comes to many things–always looking for a shortcut to info!

Thanks, again!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Tomdstone]

Of course, Christianity is monotheistic …

there are going to be some who will say that monotheism demands that you believe that there is one person in one God and that Trinitarian Christianity does not meet that definition.

 

[Hatikvah]

there are going to be some who will say that monotheism demands that you believe that there is one person in one God and that Trinitarian Christianity does not meet that definition.

Monotheism, by etymology, popular definition, historical definition, and practical definition… means (Merriam-Webster Dictionary):

the doctrine or belief that there is but one God

And we affirm that there is one God: the omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent Being who possesses aesity is singular, but He is of three Persons. The Nicene Fathers were pretty clear on that, and careful avoiding Sabellianism/Modalism/Monarchianism.

 

[Kaninchen]

I am on Monday starting to read the Old Testament also known as The Hebrew Bible. If this community can be so kind can somebody inform me what books I can read that would help me better understand the Jewish faith and its scriptures. That would be MUCH appreciated.

If you want to understand Judaism on its own terms, rather than just searching for bits of Judaism that, from a Christian perspective, seem to ‘fit’, the first thing you have to do is to stop thinking of it as being ‘Christianity minus Jesus’, it isn’t. It’s a very different religion with different foci and preoccupations to those of Christianity.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

If you want to understand Judaism on its own terms, rather than just searching for bits of Judaism that, from a Christian perspective, seem to ‘fit’, the first thing you have to do is to stop thinking of it as being ‘Christianity minus Jesus’, it isn’t. It’s a very different religion with different foci and preoccupations to those of Christianity.

I agree with you. I just figured reading the hebrew bible is a good place to start.

 

[Kaninchen]

I agree with you. I just figured reading the hebrew bible is a good place to start.

Well, the thing is that the Jewish way of looking at the Tanakh (‘OT’ to you) is that there’s the ‘Law’ (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) and everything else is, basically, commentary. Not only that, you need ‘Oral Torah’ to interpret it as well.

So, really, you’d need to start off with ‘what’s Judaism all about?’ sorts of questions and move on from there. Places like Judaism 101 might be helpful.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

So, really, you’d need to start off with ‘what’s Judaism all about?’ sorts of questions and move on from there. Places like Judaism 101 might be helpful.

I concur with Kaninchen, and add that if you are Catholic you must do even more than merely learn about Judaism from the source, but do as the Church now teaches: learn about Judaism and be actively engaged in building bridges, not walls, between.

Especially since St. Pope John Paul II, through the papacy of Benedict XVI and now today with Pope Francis, the Vatican as well as local bishops conferences (like the USCCB) are encouraging all Catholics to walk with the Church in its current understanding of Jewish-Christian dialogue and relations.

You will want to read “The Gifts and Calling of God Are Irrevocable,” recently released on the Vatican website. And you will want to take seriously how much the Christian faith stands to gain from this precious relationship with our elder brethren of Judaism.

A recent example: “The most important thing we can learn from the Jewish people is first of all it’s a religion not of the synagogue but of the home, the family,” Cardinal Kurt Koch, President of the Commission of the Holy See for Religious Relations with the Jews recently stated. Christianity can only flourish by learning from our Jewish brethren, a faith “rooted in the family” and the “clear tradition of Shabbat….Family and Shabbat are two main challenges for Christianity,” noted the Cardinal, and that the Sunday “culture in Christianity is very weak.” There are so many gifts in Judaism that have just never been properly appreciated by Christians that can only aid us in serving God if we but listen.

Learning from the Jewish example can’t be done merely by looking up websites or reading books. They are great starts, yes, but you need to become involved in the Catholic-Jewish dialogue on the local level. You might want to begin by learning if there are any Hebrew Catholics in your parish or area. Some of these Hebrew Catholics still have strong connections with their Jewish family members and rabbis, and some occasionally still visit their synagogue or temple communities as guests. Some may even be involved in the actual official dialogue between the two great faiths as well and can thus introduce you to other Catholics and Jews who can help you learn firsthand about Judaism.

In the end, it has to be far more than what you think Judaism gets right or wrong or where Catholicism might be lacking or has things right. It has to be about allowing both sides to speak in such a way that shared values and God’s providence can speak for itself as it shines through from both. The recent Jewish Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity is but one of many examples how things have and are changing in the way Jews and Christians view one another.

There will be some on both sides who might still prefer building walls and living behind them in this regard, but as Catholics our duty is to build and cross these bridges and actively extend our hands to those who are extending their hands to us.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

If you want to understand Judaism on its own terms, rather than just searching for bits of Judaism that, from a Christian perspective, seem to ‘fit’, the first thing you have to do is to stop thinking of it as being ‘Christianity minus Jesus’, it isn’t. It’s a very different religion with different foci and preoccupations to those of Christianity.

Kaninchen:

You are very correct, and with this the Catholic Church thoroughly agrees.

Recent developments in the Jewish-Catholic dialogue process has moved at least the Catholic Church to state that Judaism is not to be viewed as an incomplete religion. The Church currently acknowledges that God has never and will never dismiss or terminate the irrevocable covenant God has with his people, the Jews.

While all the theological questions which arise in the relationship of Christianity and Judaism are far from being resolved (and the Church acknowledges it may be by providential design that this remains hidden until God accomplishes the redemption of all), Judaism is definitely not to be viewed or considered a religion that is “Christianity minus Jesus” in any respect.

In the words of the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews:

"God entrusted Israel with a unique mission, and He does not bring his mysterious plan of salvation for all peoples (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) to fulfilment without drawing into it his ‘first-born son’ [the Jews] (Ex 4:22). From this it is self-evident that Paul in the Letter to the Romans definitively negates the question he himself has posed, whether God has repudiated his own people. Just as decisively he asserts: ‘For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable’ (Rom 11:29).

That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery [from the standpoint of Catholicism]. It is therefore no accident that Paul’s soteriological reflections in Romans 9-11 on the irrevocable redemption of Israel against the background of the Christ-mystery culminate in a magnificent doxology: ‘Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways’ (Rom 11:33)."–The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable.

The Catholic Church recognizes it itself is not possessor of all the answers in this regard, but it does acknowledge that Judaism is not a religious path that provides its children with a deficient system of worship and approach to God.

 

[Athanasiy]

I found an old article that might explain something.

The Jewish things we do in the Catholic Church
catholic365.com/article/3350/the-jewish-things-we-do-in-the-catholic-church.html

 

[StGerardMajella]

In the end, it has to be far more than what you think Judaism gets right or wrong or where Catholicism might be lacking or has things right. It has to be about allowing both sides to speak in such a way that shared values and God’s providence can speak for itself as it shines through from both. The recent Jewish Orthodox Rabbinic Statement on Christianity is but one of many examples how things have and are changing in the way Jews and Christians view one another.

You might want to re-read the link you posted to the “Jewish Orthodox Rabbinic Statement”. Here are the key sentences:

“…In the past relations between Christians and Jews were often seen through the adversarial relationship of Esau and Jacob, yet Rabbi Naftali Zvi Berliner (Netziv) already understood at the end of the 19th century that Jews and Christians are destined by G-d to be loving partners: “In the future when the children of Esau are moved by pure spirit to recognize the people of Israel and their virtues, then we will also be moved to recognize that Esau is our brother.”[5]”

Did you catch that?

Catholics are the “children of Esau”!

Do you know what the Orthodox Jewish rabbis have to say about Esau in their commentaries on the Torah? That Esau was pure evil. Esau is a derogatory slur. The Orthodox rabbis will even claim that the Church was started by Edomites and Amalekites (both are associated with Esau), when, in fact, the earliest Christians were men and women of the Jewish faith in the time of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew, as were all of His earliest followers.

This isn’t reconciliation. It’s an arrogant slur against the Church, calling us children of Esau. Not to mention inaccurate even today, as Catholics cover practically every race and ethnicity on the planet. We have every type of Catholic under the sun, from Irish Catholics to Polish Catholics and everything in between. (We even have Hebrew Catholics!) Our entire liturgy and Catholic prayers are all directly from ancient Jewish sources.

Don’t get me wrong. I am most emphatically not an anti-semite. But this is hardly a kind token of appreciation between the two faiths. We have a long road still to travel to meet on common ground.

It’s just a tiny bit patronizing to talk about reconciliation on the one hand, and then on the other, start to mock the Catholic faith by calling us children of Esau. Most people won’t catch that, but it’s a subtle little jab at the Church.

 

[Kaninchen]

Did you catch that?

I think the fish is somewhat less big than you’re claiming.

Can you think of a reason why some European Jews might have considered Christians to be somewhat naughty? That the Esau bit might possibly be metaphor rather than a considered genetic study?

Meanwhile, over at the journal Civiltà Cattolica at the time . . .

On the other hand, perhaps the route to ‘reconciliation’ implies that we don’t spend our time making lists of historic insults?

 

[CeelosDeznos]

You might want to re-read the link you posted to the “Jewish Orthodox Rabbinic Statement”. Here are the key sentences:

“…In the past relations between Christians and Jews were often seen through the adversarial relationship of Esau and Jacob, yet Rabbi Naftali Zvi Berliner (Netziv) already understood at the end of the 19th century that Jews and Christians are destined by G-d to be loving partners: “In the future when the children of Esau are moved by pure spirit to recognize the people of Israel and their virtues, then we will also be moved to recognize that Esau is our brother.”[5]”

Did you catch that?

Catholics are the “children of Esau”!

Do you know what the Orthodox Jewish rabbis have to say about Esau in their commentaries on the Torah? That Esau was pure evil. Esau is a derogatory slur. The Orthodox rabbis will even claim that the Church was started by Edomites and Amalekites (both are associated with Esau), when, in fact, the earliest Christians were men and women of the Jewish faith in the time of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew, as were all of His earliest followers.

This isn’t reconciliation. It’s an arrogant slur against the Church, calling us children of Esau. Not to mention inaccurate even today, as Catholics cover practically every race and ethnicity on the planet. We have every type of Catholic under the sun, from Irish Catholics to Polish Catholics and everything in between. (We even have Hebrew Catholics!) Our entire liturgy and Catholic prayers are all directly from ancient Jewish sources.

Don’t get me wrong. I am most emphatically not an anti-semite. But this is hardly a kind token of appreciation between the two faiths. We have a long road still to travel to meet on common ground.

It’s just a tiny bit patronizing to talk about reconciliation on the one hand, and then on the other, start to mock the Catholic faith by calling us children of Esau. Most people won’t catch that, but it’s a subtle little jab at the Church.

Remember, I am a Hebrew Catholic. Of course I know the history of how Esau has been viewed by Orthodox Jews in the past.

But this also means I know how “Esau” is currently used today. Do you know? Modern views are dismissing the very views of Esau you mention. Judaism as a whole is reminding itself that Esau was still a son of Isaac, the son of Abraham. Past associations with Esau being the epitome of evil and Rome are being left in the past.

As I also mentioned in line with the Holy See, that the dialogue is still ongoing and the Church does not claim to have all the answers.

And as I also mentioned, some prefer walls to bridges on both sides. There are some Jews who still spit in my direction because I am Catholic and there are some Catholics who spit in my direction because I am a Jew, but I prefer to return such gestures with a blessing.

And yes, I have read these documents. Even if you find you are being cursed by either of them, have you never read the Bible where it says: “Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse” (Romans 12:14) and “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”? (Matthew 5:44) If you take what is said as an insulting jab, why are you not rather blessing those who curse you? What has possessed you to avoid following Scripture as your guide in this case, even if you are right? Did not Jesus say you were blessed when people insult you, persecute you, and say false things of you on the account of being a Christian? Did Jesus instruct you to complain about it, point out this fault in others, or rather to rejoice and give thanks?–Matthew 5:11-12.

More important than what others may or may not be saying about us, what insults they may or may not hurl our way, Christians are never free to go against the above instruction and return insult for insult, hatred for hatred, but to pray, rejoice, and bring peace. “If at all possible, as far as it depends upon you, live at peace with all men.”–Romans 12:18.

 

[StGerardMajella]

Can you think of a reason why some European Jews might have considered Christians to be somewhat naughty? That the Esau bit might possibly be metaphor rather than a considered genetic study?

For a document aimed at “reconciliation”, there was no need to even mention Esau.

More important than what others may or may not be saying about us, what insults they may or may not hurl our way, Christians are never free to go against the above instruction and return insult for insult, hatred for hatred, but to pray, rejoice, and bring peace.

No one is trading insults. The document cited is just a poor example of “reconciliation”.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

For a document aimed at “reconciliation”, there was no need to even mention Esau.

…No one is trading insults. The document cited is just a poor example of “reconciliation”.

Again, as I mentioned in my post, the term “Esau” as used in the Orthodox statement is not used with the meaning you are projecting on it.

Judaism has always awaited the day of reconciliation with “Esau,” and the Orthodox statement talks about this, which in fact is the reference made. As I previously mentioned the cultural views on Esau have been reshaped in Judaism since the Shoa. These views are no longer confined to definitions you are declaring.

True, on both sides some are still sticking to them. But most have moved on from the past and live in the present. Some people enter the future kicking and screaming, but it comes with its changes regardless of our personal views.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

By the way, StGerardM.,

You are entitled to your view. Despite the intention behind the use of “Esau” in the document (meant to demonstrated the greatest of reconciliations), if you find the expressions offensive then maybe you should get involved in the dialogue between Catholics and Jews.

Catholics are not the only ones who need to change their attitudes and language in regard to the issues that face us all. Jews need to as well.

So don’t view my comments as a call to change your views. See them more as an explanation of what the meanings in the document may have intended to be, and perhaps this exchange to show were they may have fallen short. We must seek ways of healing and never return to taking sides where we remain seeing one another as opposers.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

As I also mentioned in line with the Holy See, that the dialogue is still ongoing and the Church does not claim to have all the answers.

CD,

what do you mean by the Church does not claim to have al the answers? concerning what?

 

[CeelosDeznos]

CD,

what do you mean by the Church does not claim to have al the answers? concerning what?

It is recommended that you read and study the document “The Gifts and the Calling of God are Irrevocable” for a fuller explanation of what I am repeating from that and related Holy See statements.*

The Church acknowledges:

1. The Covenant between Israel and God is irrevocable.
2. The events since the Shoah demonstrate to Christians that God is still working with and through the children of Israel despite the fact that they have not accepted Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah.
3. The Church’s faith in Jesus as Messiah is equally irrevocable.
4. There are not two ways of salvation, only one.
5. It has not been revealed to the Church how God intends to reconcile all these previous points.

The Church teaches from Inspired Scripture that the Jews play a central part in the economy of salvation. St. Paul’s statement, “all Israel will be saved” has not been explained in detail as if it must follow a formula currently understood, practiced or foreseen by Christians. From St. Paul’s inspired standpoint, how this will eventually play out is a mystery hidden from the current view of humanity. (Romans 11:28-35) As long as these details remain excluded from what has been revealed to the Church, they remain among those issues which the Church cannot draw precise answers.–Compare Acts 1:6-7.

It will take far more than a superficial reading of both my current post and the various documents to fully take in exactly where the discussion has come from, where the dialogue stands now, and the reason both side believe that Providence directs where it is currently going. It is important that you see and study these documents for yourself and, if you have important questions, to approach individuals in your local diocesan offices who can put you in contact with someone who can personally aid you.

It is understandable that you will have many questions as the dialogue has been going on now for over half a century, and sadly most individual Catholics and Jews have neither been involved nor read even one of the documents or studies produced over this time. Add to this that the latest document on the subject from the Holy See is a major historical development in the dialogue.

• If you have not already, please study this document in full which is available on the Vatican’s website via the links supplied in my previous posts.

 

[Kaninchen]

After a couple of millennia of putting up with each other I think the most important thing is that we just leave one another alone, physically. Talking and understanding is a bonus.

 

[CeelosDeznos]

I concur with Kaninchen on this point.

As a bonus, for those wondering about the use of “Esau” as a negative figure, Jews are not the only ones who have done this. St. Paul did the same in the Letter to the Romans, except he calls Christians “Jacob” and he calls the Jews who do not accept Jesus as Messiah by the term “Esau.”–Romans 9:1-16, note specifically verse 13.

This is a common reference where one side claims itself “Jacob” and calls the opposing side “Esau,” and here is an example where the Apostle Paul does it from the Christian standpoint.

It is an old tradition, as Paul quoting this phrase from Malachi 1:3 demonstrates but it is not complete in that tiny phrase from the prophet.

Judaism is a religion of reconciliation and redemption: redemption of Israel from Egypt, redemption of the Jews to their land, and redemption and total reconciliation of all humanity due to the promises God has made to Israel.

In this the tradition of the story of Jacob and Esau is not complete in the division. Torah teaches that the two brothers came to terms and lived peacefully together in the end even though they did not see eye-to-eye. (Genesis 33) The tradition of Jacob and Esau is only complete when it follows the complete pattern read in the Law. It is a story of reconciliation, and where humans cannot fully make things work together, one can be assured that God fully can.

With this example from the Pentateuch the Catholic Church fully agrees.