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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Then what is the signifcance of the Jewish Messiah?
I’ve read stillsmallvoice’s link above and I’m still not sure what he’s actually expected to do.
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I’ve read stillsmallvoice’s link above and I’m still not sure what he’s actually expected to do.
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
So this wouldn’t be an example of zachin leadam shelo befanav?
Certainly, it seems to me anyway, that Moses could act in a way that benefited others without their consent-- even if he wasn’t necessarilly adopting them per se.
Is there any kind of Jewish equivalent to zachin leadam shelo befanav that applies to adults?
Or, if this is strictly an action which specfically falls under the category of prayer, how exactly does prayer work in the Jewish religion?
Thank you.
I haven’t had the chance to find what I was looking for. I’ll respond in more detail tomorrow night.
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Valke2
Guest
We’re not sure either. Other than that he will under him, the Jewish people will be united, return to Israel, that peace will reign, that the world will worship Hashem (but not necessarily as Jews)…Then what is the signifcance of the Jewish Messiah?
I’ve read stillsmallvoice’s link above and I’m still not sure what he’s actually expected to do.
I think we can agree that there are major differences between the Christian and Jewish definition of Messiah, and that they go beyond the fact that you’re waiting for him to return and we’re waiting for him to show up for the first time.
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Valke2
Guest
It may be an example. I don’t know. I hadn’t heard of that term before you posted it. But it seems that it implies an act for someone who is not legally able to consent. But I really don’t know. (Stillsmall? little help…).So this wouldn’t be an example of zachin leadam shelo befanav?
Certainly, it seems to me anyway, that Moses could act in a way that benefited others without their consent-- even if he wasn’t necessarilly adopting them per se.
Is there any kind of Jewish equivalent to zachin leadam shelo befanav that applies to adults?
Or, if this is strictly an action which specfically falls under the category of prayer, how exactly does prayer work in the Jewish religion?
Thank you.
I haven’t had the chance to find what I was looking for. I’ll respond in more detail tomorrow night.
Prayer in Judaism is of two types: Communal and personal. When we daven(pray) in shul, we read from a Siddur (prayer book) that contains varouis psalms, prayers, commentary… The entire community reads the same prayers. ALthough Siddur’s can differ slightly from community to community, they are mostly the same. At one point in the service,there is a silent prayer. jews can either read the prayer or use that time to give their own prayers to God. (as well as doing it whenver they want throughout the day, of course).
On Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana, we read that God judges us for the next year and determines who will live and who will die, who will suffer and who will prosper… (very powerful part of our service). And then, when our fate seems all but sealed, we read that we can lessen the harshness of the decree through Prayer, Repentence and Charity.
These three things are (or should be) in the forefront of every Jew’s thoughts. Especially between the days of Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur (the day our fate for the year is “sealed”).
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MeusVita
Guest
Thank you for this thread.
Was there an actual reformation or particular rabbinic council of some sort that caused and/or allowed the original Orthodox to branch off into conservative/reformed?
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Valke2
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The Conservative movement was founded by Solomon Schechter. Sschechter stressed the idea of a “Catholic Israel” meaning that the consensus of the jewish people as a whole determins the meaning of Judaism. Schecther would often say that God does not reveal so much reveal HIs will to the jewish people, as he does through them. We are not just the receipents of Torah. Conservative Judaism that we are the creators, authors and follower’s of Torah, under Divine Guidance. The entire movement is about 200 years old. As things changed in the world, some Jews could not accept the “Torah is from Heaven” basis for all of Judaism. Conservative Jews recognize that the nature of Judaism changes as it comes into contact with other cultures, philosophies, etc. But it limits the acceptance of new ideas by vieing them through the lense of Jewish tradition. It is not the origions of the laws/halacha that matter but what the Jewish tradition does with them.
For example, as a Conservative Jew, I might conclude that the laws of Shabbat originanted from taboos that existed in other cultures before Judaism took root. But that doesn’t change my belief of the importance of Shabbat in my life as a Jew, which is governed by the tradition of how Jews observe the Sabbath. IT is what Sabbath meant to Jews that is important. Not how it originated.
It is a complicated belief system. And I’m not the greatest at describing it.
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Valke2
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From what I’ve seen, zachin leadam shelo befanav is the principal of doing something for someone’s benefit without their permission. So I guess that someone could be an adult and then your example of Moses arguing for the lives of the people of Israel would seem to be an example of zachin leadam shelo befanav.
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SimonneMDS
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SimonneMDS
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In Isaiah ch 2 vs 1- 4
It will happen in the end of days : The mountain of the Temple of HASHEM will be firmly established as the head of the mountains , and it will be exalted above the hills and all the nations will stream to it . Many peoples will go and say “Come let us go up to the Mountain of HASHEM , to the Temple of the God of Jacob , and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths .” For from Zion will the **Torah **come forth, and the word of HASHEM from Jerusalem . He will judge among the nations , and will settle the arguments of many peoples . They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.
Now my question is to everyone . why can’t people learn the Torah now and be prepared ? If all religions would just study the Torah …thank you
It will happen in the end of days : The mountain of the Temple of HASHEM will be firmly established as the head of the mountains , and it will be exalted above the hills and all the nations will stream to it . Many peoples will go and say “Come let us go up to the Mountain of HASHEM , to the Temple of the God of Jacob , and He will teach us of His ways and we will walk in His paths .” For from Zion will the **Torah **come forth, and the word of HASHEM from Jerusalem . He will judge among the nations , and will settle the arguments of many peoples . They shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation will not lift sword against nation and they will no longer study warfare.
Now my question is to everyone . why can’t people learn the Torah now and be prepared ? If all religions would just study the Torah …thank you
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SimonneMDS
Guest
This is where Abraham had it all over us and proof of his FAITH in HASHEM …
Genesis Ch 22 vs 4-5
On the third day , Abraham raised his eyes and perceived the place from afar . And Abraham said to his young men "Stay here by yourselves with the donkey while I and the lad will go younder ;** we **will worship and we will return to you . Abraham had absolutely total faith that he and his son would return … So Abraham did not have to be concerned about the innocent person here. Thank you .
Genesis Ch 22 vs 4-5
On the third day , Abraham raised his eyes and perceived the place from afar . And Abraham said to his young men "Stay here by yourselves with the donkey while I and the lad will go younder ;** we **will worship and we will return to you . Abraham had absolutely total faith that he and his son would return … So Abraham did not have to be concerned about the innocent person here. Thank you .
So then if Moses was able to do this, wouldn’t the messiah, a man who is to be greater than Noah, Abraham and Moses, be able to draw in the gentile nations too?
Again, I’m not arguing for Jesus being the Christ. Neither am I trying to convert you.
It’s just that I thought I did understand at least some distinctly Jewish concepts of the messiah-- and it seemed to me that this link with the gentile nations was going to be a role that he would perform when ushering/signalling the coming of the Messianic Age to Come.
Apparently I was wrong.
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SimonneMDS
Guest
Read Isaiah 53 Vs 8-9
For he had been removed form the land of the living , and affliction upon them that was my people’s sin … He submitted himself to his grave like a wicked man; and the wealthy submitted to his executions , for committing no crime and without deceit in his mouth .
The Tanach
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IHS
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Yes ,Christ willingly gave up His life so that we could live forever.Amen.
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Valke2
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Works for me. Start studying.
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Valke2
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The Jewish view of Isaiah, I am sure, has been addressed many times. If this is something that people are really interested in, I think it should be its own thread. I think anyone – christian or jewish – who has been on this boards or religious chat rooms, knows how the two religions interpert Isaiah.
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IHS
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Still waiting for your answer?:
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Valke2
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A more accurate translation of the Hebrew:
8 From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.9 And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Jews do not and never have viewed Isaiah 53 as referring to the messiah.
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SimonneMDS
Guest
Ok … I will type out the whole thing and then I will let the audience decide WHO IS THE HE that is being spoken of here .I say It is Yeshua .
Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of HASHEM been revealed ! Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground ; he had neither form nor grandeur ; He was despised and isolated from men , a man of pains and accustomed to illness . As one from whom we would hide our faces ; he was despised , and we had no regard for him . But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried . but we regarded him diseased , stricken by God , and afflicted !
He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities ; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit , and through his wounds , we were healed . We have all strayed like sheep , each of us turning his own way , and HASHEM inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all . He was persecuted and afflicted but he did not open his mouth ; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers , he did not open his mouth … The TANACH … vs 8 & 9 I have already posted …
Say what you will … either accept today or later on … one way or another . all mankind will bow before HIM I choose now
Thank you .
Who would believe what we have heard! For whom has the arm of HASHEM been revealed ! Formerly he grew like a sapling or like a root from arid ground ; he had neither form nor grandeur ; He was despised and isolated from men , a man of pains and accustomed to illness . As one from whom we would hide our faces ; he was despised , and we had no regard for him . But in truth, it was our ills that he bore, and our pains that he carried . but we regarded him diseased , stricken by God , and afflicted !
He was pained because of our rebellious sins and oppressed through our iniquities ; the chastisement upon him was for our benefit , and through his wounds , we were healed . We have all strayed like sheep , each of us turning his own way , and HASHEM inflicted upon him the iniquity of us all . He was persecuted and afflicted but he did not open his mouth ; like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe that is silent before her shearers , he did not open his mouth … The TANACH … vs 8 & 9 I have already posted …
Say what you will … either accept today or later on … one way or another . all mankind will bow before HIM I choose now
Thank you .
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Mr.Ex_Nihilo
Guest
Hi mom.
PS. Most Jewish people that I know of interpret this passage as the Jewish people themselves if I recall correctly.
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