Judas... great sinner or great necessity?

[smorin1487]

This is something I always wondered, and it seems to be a big question about free will vs. some form/necessity for fate/destiny in certain parts of our Faith. For me personally, this is the greatest mystery of the faith.

We are told that God became Man to save us, that He willingly entered a sacrificial death to forgive our sins, and I’m totally onboard with that. Perhaps I’m understanding it wrong, but this seems to be God’s plan that He had from the start.

If this is true, wasn’t Judas’ betrayal (or someone’s betrayal??) necessary for Jesus’ crucifixion? Wouldn’t that make Judas a great martyr… someone who needed to do something no one wanted to do in order to advance the plan of God?

One way of reconciled this in my mind was that in the end, everyone living in that time did indeed have Free Will, just as we all do. Judas had the choice of whether to betray Jesus or not… and if he chose not to, eventually someone else would have killed Jesus so that the prophecies would be fulfilled.

What do you think? Let’s keep it light and respectful

And if there is some kind of canonical, definitive answer to this from Apologetics, I’d love to hear it.

 

[smorin1487]

By the way I’m aware that this is sort of what the Gnostic Gospel of Judas was about, that he made a saintly choice to release Jesus from his earthly body, etc. Something like that, and in a way I share their philosophy, but not to the extent that they do, where only some people are born with ability for salvation, etc.

 

[Sky_Pilot]

This is an area where I freely admit …
I don’t know.
There are many things I know not, nor do I understand, and this is one of them.
I figure it’s part of the Divine Plan, to which I am not entirely privy.
That’s fine by me.
I don’t need to know exactly how my fuel injection computer works in order to drive my Jeep.

 

[Neofight]

perhaps both!

It’s too late, one way or another, for judas. His salvation or condemnation is in God’s hands from the time of his earthly death. In the meantime, I find it more practical to concentrate on my own service to God in hopes of obtaining the promise of everlasting life!

 

[Sparkythedog]

This is something I always wondered, and it seems to be a big question about free will vs. some form/necessity for fate/destiny in certain parts of our Faith. For me personally, this is the greatest mystery of the faith.

We are told that God became Man to save us, that He willingly entered a sacrificial death to forgive our sins, and I’m totally onboard with that. Perhaps I’m understanding it wrong, but this seems to be God’s plan that He had from the start.

If this is true, wasn’t Judas’ betrayal (or someone’s betrayal??) necessary for Jesus’ crucifixion? Wouldn’t that make Judas a great martyr… someone who needed to do something no one wanted to do in order to advance the plan of God?

One way of reconciled this in my mind was that in the end, everyone living in that time did indeed have Free Will, just as we all do. Judas had the choice of whether to betray Jesus or not… and if he chose not to, eventually someone else would have killed Jesus so that the prophecies would be fulfilled.

What do you think? Let’s keep it light and respectful

And if there is some kind of canonical, definitive answer to this from Apologetics, I’d love to hear it.

I was wondering that myself. It seems to me that Judas is actually the hero of this story. Without him there would be no salvation. And if he is condemned to hell for it, it seems like he made the biggest sacrifice.

 

[fhansen]

This is something I always wondered, and it seems to be a big question about free will vs. some form/necessity for fate/destiny in certain parts of our Faith. For me personally, this is the greatest mystery of the faith.

We are told that God became Man to save us, that He willingly entered a sacrificial death to forgive our sins, and I’m totally onboard with that. Perhaps I’m understanding it wrong, but this seems to be God’s plan that He had from the start.

If this is true, wasn’t Judas’ betrayal (or someone’s betrayal??) necessary for Jesus’ crucifixion? Wouldn’t that make Judas a great martyr… someone who needed to do something no one wanted to do in order to advance the plan of God?

One way of reconciled this in my mind was that in the end, everyone living in that time did indeed have Free Will, just as we all do. Judas had the choice of whether to betray Jesus or not… and if he chose not to, eventually someone else would have killed Jesus so that the prophecies would be fulfilled.

What do you think? Let’s keep it light and respectful

And if there is some kind of canonical, definitive answer to this from Apologetics, I’d love to hear it.

In the end it’s the same question as to whether or not Adam’s sin, the sin that started it all and ended up obtaining for us so great a Redeemer (reference the “Blessed Fault”) necessary? And the answer is “no”, or else the command which Adam broke would’ve been an unjust command and Adam should not have been held accountable for breaking it. And God would be the creator of evil.

 

[tonyrey]

And Satan entered into Judas, who was surnamed Iscariot, one of the twelve.

Luke 22:3

It is impossible to know to what extent Judas was responsible for his betrayal of Jesus. He was probably possessed and didn’t come to his senses until his Master had been arrested. That is the most reasonable explanation of why he hanged himself. If he had not felt remorse he would certainly have been a great sinner.

There is nothing remarkable about treachery. Throughout history prophets and saints have been executed or assassinated for exposing and condemning injustice and wickedness. In this world there is constant warfare between good and evil. It would have been a miracle if Jesus had not been vilified and put to death for His revolutionary teaching. It is a mistake to single out Judas as the hero or the villain. Caiphas and members of the Sanhedrin, Pilate, Herod, the Jews who shouted “Crucify him” and the Roman soldiers who scourged and executed Jesus were also responsible.

Like them we are not isolated individuals but members of a community who are all responsible to some extent for the suffering in the world. It is not for us to judge anyone and look for scapegoats - or suggest that God is unjust:

If any of you have never sinned, then go ahead and throw the first stone…

John 8:7

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Is it everyone’s contention here that without Judas, Rome or Herod or the HIgh priest could never have captured Jesus? I don’t understand this. How was the betrayal necessary except to fulfill a prophesy. Surely Rome and the earthly powers could have put Jesus to death at any time.

It would seem to me that Judas just serves to fulfill the prophesy of the messiah being betrayed and handed over.

The Bible says it would be better that he never be born. That does not sound good.

 

[tonyrey]

Is it everyone’s contention here that without Judas, Rome or Herod or the HIgh priest could never have captured Jesus?

No!

I don’t understand this. How was the betrayal necessary except to fulfill a prophesy. Surely Rome and the earthly powers could have put Jesus to death at any time.

It would seem to me that Judas just serves to fulfill the prophesy of the messiah being betrayed and handed over.

He wasn’t the only one who could have been the informer. Jesus incurred plenty of enemies among the Jews and Gentiles.

The Bible says it would be better that he never be born. That does not sound good.

The simple fact that Judas hanged himself is evidence of his mental agony. The thought that he would go down in history as a detested traitor to Our Lord must have been excruciating.

 

[Eileen_T]

I woke up one morning a few years ago, grabbed paper and pen and wrote about 13 pages about Judas which must have come to me in my sleep because it was so random.

Judas saw Jesus work miracles and raise people from the dead. IMO he believed Jesus was the Messiah and was determined to be an apostle so he would be an important person when Jesus “came into His kingdom.” I had the feeling that he hoped to be either the “King’s” counsellor or treasurer, or both.

What happened was that Jesus would not listen to his advice and continued to do things that seemed to set the authorities against Him. I can imagine Judas getting nervous about where it was going and he desperately wanted to belong to the winning side.

My conclusion was that his betrayal was an attempt to put Jesus into a position where He had to exert His power and claim His Kingdom. When he witnessed the Passion and Death he was horrified and had remorse…but not repentance. He felt he had been deceived, had chosen the wrong side and now was held in contempt by the Sanhedrin, Pharisees and Scribes. Being unable to live with that contempt, he chose to kill himself.

Jesus would have discerned what was in Judas’ heart and thoughts and must have looked at him with sorrow and tried to turn him away from the course he had chosen, which Judas would have hated.

No, he didn’t have to betray Jesus, the High Priest and his cronies could easily have had a false disciple infiltrate the group to spy on Jesus in order to accuse Him. Jesus would have made every effort to turn Judas away from the coming betrayal but in the end, God will not violate the free will of any person.

Judas was not a hero, he was a man who allowed his pride to rule his actions and instead of repenting and asking forgiveness he took the coward’s way out.

:twocents:

 

[tonyrey]

I woke up one morning a few years ago, grabbed paper and pen and wrote about 13 pages about Judas which must have come to me in my sleep because it was so random.

Judas saw Jesus work miracles and raise people from the dead. IMO he believed Jesus was the Messiah and was determined to be an apostle so he would be an important person when Jesus “came into His kingdom.” I had the feeling that he hoped to be either the “King’s” counsellor or treasurer, or both.

What happened was that Jesus would not listen to his advice and continued to do things that seemed to set the authorities against Him. I can imagine Judas getting nervous about where it was going and he desperately wanted to belong to the winning side.

My conclusion was that his betrayal was an attempt to put Jesus into a position where He had to exert His power and claim His Kingdom. When he witnessed the Passion and Death he was horrified and had remorse…but not repentance. He felt he had been deceived, had chosen the wrong side and now was held in contempt by the Sanhedrin, Pharisees and Scribes. Being unable to live with that contempt, he chose to kill himself.

Jesus would have discerned what was in Judas’ heart and thoughts and must have looked at him with sorrow and tried to turn him away from the course he had chosen, which Judas would have hated.

No, he didn’t have to betray Jesus, the High Priest and his cronies could easily have had a false disciple infiltrate the group to spy on Jesus in order to accuse Him. Jesus would have made every effort to turn Judas away from the coming betrayal but in the end, God will not violate the free will of any person.

Judas was not a hero, he was a man who allowed his pride to rule his actions and instead of repenting and asking forgiveness he took the coward’s way out.

:twocents:

“Judge not lest you be judged.” Matt 7:1

 

[animalis]

In the Liturgy of St. Basil, which is said on Holy Thursday in the Byzantine Rite Churches, there is a prayer that is said (paraphrasing) I will not betray your mysteries like Judas.

This Liturgy is a fruitful indication of Sacred Tradition in regard to Judas. Hence, given the content of the prayer, Judas is not one to be imitated. Futhermore, Sacred Tradition is to be esteemed in equal respect with Sacred Scripture.

Moreover, I have never read any praise of Judas by the Fathers of the Church, of which we should ascertain sound opinions.

 

[Aloysium]

I was wondering that myself. It seems to me that Judas is actually the hero of this story. Without him there would be no salvation. And if he is condemned to hell for it, it seems like he made the biggest sacrifice.

We are saved because in Christ evil is defeated.
Evil acts did not make this possible; God’s goodness and love did.
Let’s take a more recent historical example: The holocaust brought to light the horrors of racism, not to mention the depths to which we can sink. It also led to the creation of Israel, which most Jews applaud. Hitler is not that different from Judas in that their actions contributed to the creation of a “good”. Would you expect the Jews to consider Hitler a hero?

 

[steph_86]

This is a question I have pondered too. Based on the Gospels, it was God’s Will that Jesus die on the Cross in order to atone for Sin, redeem Humanity, and open the doors of Heaven again by meriting Grace for men.

For instance, Jesus rebuked Peter, when the latter expressed his opposition to Christ’s Mission, which was to die on the Cross in obedience to the Will of the Father.

Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you. He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.”

• Matthew 16:22.

My position on the matter of Judas’ betrayal and on the necessity of Christ’s redemptive sufferings during His Passion, is that, although it was necessary for Christ to die, it was possible for God to bring this about in a different way.

What I am essentially saying is that, Christ’s Death was necessary, but Judas’ betrayal was not. This means that, God could have brought Christ’s redemptive works by using other means, which, in my opinion, remain a mystery.

My position that Judas’ betrayal was not necessary, is in part based on the fact that, Christ chose Judas as one of his 12 disciples, taught him, loved him, and as such, tried to save Judas’ soul. Had Christ not wanted to save Judas, He would not have chosen him as one of his disciples, who, in comparison to Jesus’ other disciples and of the crowds He preached to, were privy to Jesus’ friendship as well as to the Master’s most intimate lessons.

In the last analysis, then, it must be stated that Judas truly was responsible for his free acts. There was no compulsion on the part of Jesus, who still showed the traitor Mercy, when the latter kissed His cheek to signal his betrayal. It is true, it was foreknown that Judas would betray Jesus, as the Lord states in the following:

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

• John 17:12

One can question whether even after the betrayal, Christ would have saved Judas. And the answer is in the affirmative, but it would have necessitated repentance on Judas’ part. Most probably, Christ could have effected Redemption, even without Judas’ betrayal, and so, there was no necessity for Judas’ treachery.

But still, to contemplate the necessity of Redemption, and the responsibility of Judas in the exercise of his free facts, is in the end to raise the questions of human liberty and of divine foreknowledge, meaning, of Predestination. And this, is essentially a mystery.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I was wondering that myself. It seems to me that Judas is actually the hero of this story. Without him there would be no salvation. And if he is condemned to hell for it, it seems like he made the biggest sacrifice.

You think that Judas’ sin of betrayal was unforgiveable? It wasn’t. St Peter betrayed Christ THREE TIMES, but repented and was forgiven. IF Judas ‘went to hell’ he did so because he did NOT repent. So no, there was no “I Judas will do God’s will and then nobly accept punishment for doing God’s will”. . .yikes. Bleah.

 

[steph_86]

Luke 22:3

It is impossible to know to what extent Judas was responsible for his betrayal of Jesus. He was probably possessed and didn’t come to his senses until his Master had been arrested. That is the most reasonable explanation of why he hanged himself. If he had not felt remorse he would certainly have been a great sinner.

There is nothing remarkable about treachery. Throughout history prophets and saints have been executed or assassinated for exposing and condemning injustice and wickedness. In this world there is constant warfare between good and evil. It would have been a miracle if Jesus had not been vilified and put to death for His revolutionary teaching. It is a mistake to single out Judas as the hero or the villain. Caiphas and members of the Sanhedrin, Pilate, Herod, the Jews who shouted “Crucify him” and the Roman soldiers who scourged and executed Jesus were also responsible.

Like them we are not isolated individuals but members of a community who are all responsible to some extent for the suffering in the world. It is not for us to judge anyone and look for scapegoats - or suggest that God is unjust:

John 8:7

You make good points. But in comparison to Caiphas, the Sanhedrin, and Pilate, Judas’ Sin is greater because he is the one by whom Christ’s betrayal came, and His subsequent handing over to the Jews and the Romans, leading eventually to His Death on the Cross.

Our Lord states:
"Jesus replied, “You would have no authority over me if it had not been given to you from above. That’s why the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.” - John 19:11.

Judas’ sin was grave because of his dignity for being among Christ’s twelve disciples. The twelve disciples enjoyed constant friendship with Christ. To the twelve, Christ spoke more intimately than to the crowds. The Iscariot shared fellowship and companionship with Christ, and took part in the life of the Master. In comparison to Caiphas, the Sanhedrin and Pilate, then, Judas received greater Grace. For this reason, it was incumbent on Judas to achieve greater sanctity than the former.

Judas’ Sin consisted in conceiving and executing the betrayal of Jesus at the suggestion of the Devil. Of course, it can be stated that Satan had the even greater Sin, since he conceived the Death of Christ and used human agents in order to accomplish it.

Nevertheless, it can be stated that in comparison to Caiphas, the Sanhedrin, and Pilate, Judas had greater guilt, for he made the Passion and the Death of Christ possible.

"The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born.” - Matthew 26:24

The above seems like a very stern warning.

 

[steph_86]

You think that Judas’ sin of betrayal was unforgiveable? It wasn’t. St Peter betrayed Christ THREE TIMES, but repented and was forgiven. IF Judas ‘went to hell’ he did so because he did NOT repent. So no, there was no “I Judas will do God’s will and then nobly accept punishment for doing God’s will”. . .yikes. Bleah.

I am not sure if both sins are equivalent. St. Peter denied Christ out of weakness; one might say, “because the flesh is weak, and the spirit is strong.” Is this not why the three disciples, slept while Christ was undergoing His Agony in the Garden of the Olives?

On the other hand, Judas acted out of incentive. In other words, Judas’ sin was likely premeditated, since, as someone stated earlier, he at first had hopes that Christ’s Kingdom would be a human, a material, and a worldly kingdom. When he realized that Christ had different aspirations, he was disillusioned, and in the end, he betrayed Jesus.

St. Peter’s weakness might have been mental, or emotional, or spiritual. It might have been because in one instance the lower part (the animal faculty, which in this instance causes fear out of concern for bodily death) overwhelms the higher part, that of reason and of the spirit, leading to a decision that is contrary to morals, and contrary to the Faith. This was St. Peter’s sin.

Judas’ sin involved the use of his higher faculty (the reason and the spirit) which is the faculty that most resembles God, in order to achieve a nefarious end. I am not of the opinion that Judas’ sin was merely a moment of weakness, or of simple possession. I am of the opinion that his sin was prepared in time. In fact, St. John notes in his Gospel that, Judas “was a thief”.

“He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions.” - John 12:6.

I do not mean to imply that Judas was always evil. All that I would like to state and reiterate, is simply that Judas had ideas other than Jesus’ as to what the “Kingdom of God” meant, and on how to bring it about.

St. Peter’s sin might be termed an apostasy - which is something that used to happen at times, during the Christian persecution by the Romans, when some were faced with martyrdom -, but Judas’ sin might be termed a Deicide.

 

[Sparkythedog]

We are saved because in Christ evil is defeated.
Evil acts did not make this possible; God’s goodness and love did.
Let’s take a more recent historical example: The holocaust brought to light the horrors of racism, not to mention the depths to which we can sink. It also led to the creation of Israel, which most Jews applaud. Hitler is not that different from Judas in that their actions contributed to the creation of a “good”. Would you expect the Jews to consider Hitler a hero?

I guess I don’t really understand. Did Jesus have to die for humanity to be saved? If so didn’t someone have to kill him?

Actually don’t bother, Mike Godwin has informed me that I’ve won this argument by default.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I was wondering that myself. It seems to me that Judas is actually the hero of this story. Without him there would be no salvation. And if he is condemned to hell for it, it seems like he made the biggest sacrifice… I guess I don’t really understand. Did Jesus have to die for humanity to be saved? If so didn’t someone have to kill him?

A hero is someone who brings good as the result of an intentional effort, sometimes with the awareness of the possibility of great cost to himself. Judas did not have the intention of bringing salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus. We don’t know for sure what his motives were, but they were certainly not that. The fact that good did come of it is despite his intentions. And his “sacrifice” was also not foreseen by him as a possibility. If he was anticipating anything, it was probably that he would be praised for his help in stopping a madman. The fact that his betrayal was instrumental in bringing about salvation should not be translated into any praise of him for both these reasons.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I think people are confusing betrayal with murder. Judas betrayed Jesus. Knowing what Jesus had done, what he had preached and who he said he was. But Judas did not kill Jesus, it is not as if Jesus would not have died for our sins IF he was not betrayed by Judas. It fulfilled a prophecy. That is all, no more than the soldiers casting lots for his clothes. The great sin of Judas was the sin of knowing God, hearing the Gospel and not only doubting it and rejecting it, but trying to foil it. Judas BETRAYED on a level that is profoundly worse than Pontius Pilate. A thing Jesus pointed out for the benefit of US. Jesus said it would be better that he never be born.