Judas... great sinner or great necessity?

  • Thread starter Thread starter smorin1487
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I, but Judas’ sin might be termed a Deicide.
More so than the crowed that called for his execution? More so than those who beat him and physically nailed him to the cross? If you remember, those are the ones who Jesus was speaking when he said “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” But Judas, he knew, he knew and he knew that Jesus knew. At the Last supper this was evident.
 
More so than the crowed that called for his execution? More so than those who beat him and physically nailed him to the cross? If you remember, those are the ones who Jesus was speaking when he said “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” But Judas, he knew, he knew and he knew that Jesus knew. At the Last supper this was evident.
“Judge not lest you be judged.” Matt 7:1
 
I guess I don’t really understand.
Would you choose to die to save another person?
Did Jesus have to die for humanity to be saved?
Does anyone who challenges evil and exploitation of the poor have to die?
If so didn’t someone have to kill him?
History answers that question. Did some one have to kill Lincoln, Gandhi, Luther King and innumerable others?
Actually don’t bother, Mike Godwin has informed me that I’ve won this argument by default.
One man’s meat is another man’s poison… Self-deception is always a temptation!
 
I guess I don’t really understand. . . I’ve won this argument . . .
I didn’t realize we were arguing. I think I will sit out this dance, but address two parts of your statement that I have juxtaposed above.
(Rather than arguing, I try to perfect the ad hominem. ;))
It’s going to be a long-winded, convoluted route that will lead back to the OP.

What you have here fits the pattern of a distortion, which can be termed projective identification.
Identification: “I don’t understand”
Projective: Pertaining to the qualities of the other - You have lost and I have won.

“Not understanding” is an existential reality within the human condition.
It drives us to seek God, who is Truth itself and the Answer to all questions.
A form of suffering, it can reach abysmal proportions. Usually it simply involves the discomfort of not getting something and is associated with feeling stupid and vulnerable.
Clearly it is associated with the desire for truth, which people attempt fulfill in a variety of ways. Only God can truly fulfill this need as it is essentially a desire for Him.
However, we can get around to satisfy it by other means; e.g.: winning an argument. I am no longer stupid; the other guy is.
The joy that comes with knowledge, understanding and wisdom, is replaced by the elation of superiority.
The sense that “I don’t understand” is transformed, given to the other, becoming, “He doesn’t understand.”

This activity in which I am currently engaged also fits the same sort of pattern.
“It’s not me, it’s him.”
I think we can also all recognize Genesis:
  • it’s the woman you gave me.
  • it was the snake
Which brings us back to your previous post and the OP:
Originally Posted by Sparkythedog:
I was wondering that myself. It seems to me that Judas is actually the hero of this story. Without him there would be no salvation. And if he is condemned to hell for it, it seems like he made the biggest sacrifice.
Assertions to the effect that:
  • It is not the sinner but God who bears the guilt.
  • The good that God created from the act of evil is the result of the evil-doer’s actions.
    are total distortions of the truth.
Back to Judas,
he appears to repent:
Matt 27: 3-5 When he found that Jesus had been condemned, then Judas, his betrayer, was filled with remorse and took the thirty silver pieces back to the chief priests and elders saying, ‘I have sinned. I have betrayed innocent blood.’
but then goes on:
. . . he made off, and went and hanged himself.
It is not that suicide is typically a sin, but in this case it could be seen as an expression of his ultimate rejection of God’s mercy and forgiveness. Even towards others, the potters’ field graveyard was brought about by the intervention of the priests. At any rate:
Matt 26: 24 The Son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!’
suggests that he met ultimate condemnation.
 
It is not that suicide is typically a sin, but in this case it could be seen as an expression of his ultimate rejection of God’s mercy and forgiveness.
It is far more likely it was an expression of his utter despair at the enormity of his crime. He was obsessed with his own guilt to the exclusion of everything else.
Even towards others, the potters’ field graveyard was brought about by the intervention of the priests. At any rate: suggests that he met ultimate condemnation.
If Judas hadn’t killed himself you would have a far stronger case. The simple fact that he hanged himself is sufficient evidence that he was completely devastated by a sense of guilt and unworthiness. Having seen how often His Master had cured the afflicted and was the embodiment of love Judas must have regarded himself as utterly evil. There is no greater crime than to betray the Son of God but there is no evidence that his suicide was an ultimate rejection of God’s mercy and forgiveness. When a man is in a state of utter despair he is incapable of thinking about anything else but what he has done.

No one is condemned by God. It is the self-righteous who condemn themselves…
 
It is far more likely it was an expression of his utter despair at the enormity of his crime. He was obsessed with his own guilt to the exclusion of everything else.

If Judas hadn’t killed himself you would have a far stronger case. The simple fact that he hanged himself is sufficient evidence that he was completely devastated by a sense of guilt and unworthiness. Having seen how often His Master had cured the afflicted and was the embodiment of love Judas must have regarded himself as utterly evil. There is no greater crime than to betray the Son of God but there is no evidence that his suicide was an ultimate rejection of God’s mercy and forgiveness. When a man is in a state of utter despair he is incapable of thinking about anything else but what he has done.

No one is condemned by God. It is the self-righteous who condemn themselves…
You may be right. Depression and other psychiatric disorders can be fatal.
I personally do not think Judas was mentally ill.
I would think that had he accepted God’s forgiveness following his repentance there would have been much good he could have done in spreading the good news. He didn’t.
So why was he a disciple? In what way was he a fisher of men.
It is probably, IMHO, a case where you have eleven positive reasons related to love, for choosing God, and one negative: avoidance of hell.
As much as I would wish otherwise, it appears that it exists.
 
The words of Jesus are sufficient:
Matt 7:2-3
I still do not understand what you are saying. 🤷 It does not further conversation when one just throws out a verse that is commonly misunderstood. It is the equivalent of just screaming John 3:16 at someone. Could you elaborate how your "words of Jesus: are sufficient. I also used words of Jesus when I said that “it would be better that he never be born”

I am just having a hard time understanding how your quote relates.
 
More so than the crowed that called for his execution? More so than those who beat him and physically nailed him to the cross? If you remember, those are the ones who Jesus was speaking when he said “Forgive them, they know not what they do.” But Judas, he knew, he knew and he knew that Jesus knew. At the Last supper this was evident.
The Deicide means the Death of God. And yes, it is true that the chief Priests, Pilate, Caiaphas, and all those that were complicit and called for the Death of Christ did commit the Deicide, in thought, in word, and in act.

However, the question concerning the matter of Judas is a question of guilt, or of culpability. As the Sacred Scripture states:

“and the servant who was ignorant of his master’s will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more.” - Luke 12:48.

“To whom much is given, much is demanded.” As I stated earlier, because he was part of the twelve disciples, Judas had been given much. He received knowledge due to being privy to Jesus’ most private lessons. He benefited from Christ’s love and example. For that fact, by being in the daily and constant company of Christ, Judas received greater Grace; in very much the same way that St. Peter and St. John in comparison to the crowds of Jews and of Gentiles, received greater Grace. For that reason, Judas had the responsibility of achieving greater sanctity.

In other to convey the above understanding, it is necessary that I provide some relevant examples.

Firstly, the Jews who had received the Decalogue and had formed an Alliance with God in the desert, had received the Old Law. The Pagans, however, had not. For that reason, God would have been stricter against the Jews, than against the Pagans.

Another case, is our revered religion, that of Catholicism. Catholicism, which is the truest form of Christianity, presents the Catholic with a fuller Grace in comparison to other Christian denominations. God will be stricter against the Catholic than against the Protestant, because the former has received greater Knowledge, and greater Grace. Greater Knowledge of God through the Magisterium, Tradition, and Sacred Scripture, and greater Grace through the Sacraments, the Marian devotions, and the Communion of Saints. Added to that, are a repository of two thousand years of civilization as evidenced in its intellectual life, its sacramental and artistic life, and the examples of countless Saints.

Consider, for instance, the example of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Blessed was born in the Immaculate Conception, that is, she had the fullness of Grace. For this reason, she did not have the inclination to Sin. Her animal nature always was always subject to and obeyed her reason, and her spirit was always subservient to the Will of God. In comparison to the Catholic, and even to the Catholic Saint, Mary therefore had greater Grace, that is, greater Sanctity. Due to having received greater Grace, lived in greater sanctity, and exercised greater Justice, had Mary sinned, she would have had greater Sin, and greater Guilt, in comparison to the Catholic, and even to the Catholic Saint.

Finally, there is the Sin of the First Parents. Adam and Eve had been born in Paradise, innocent, intelligent, perfect, free, and not subject to mortality and the flesh. They had, hence, received the fulness of Grace. Specifically, Adam and Eve were born in Paradise, where there was no Evil, and as such no cause for them to sin. For that reason, one act of Sin, was sufficient for them to lose their original Justice and Innocence. In regards to all humans born of woman, however, all of us who are born with the tinge, the inclination to Sin, God is understanding, and our multiple transgressions are not cause for us to lose our Salvation, unless we persist in sin, and reject God’s call and invitation to conversion. All children of Adam, therefore, have extenuating circumstances due to the inclination to Evil inherited through Original Sin, as well as our Ignorance, and our mortality.

Mary, Adam, and Eve, had the fulness of Grace, and had no extenuating circumstances.


In Sacred Scripture, our Lord states the following:
“But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” - Matthew 5:28.

Our Lord also states the following:
“But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy.” - Matthew 15:18-19

In other words, it is possible to sin in thought, in word, in act, in omission, and in intention. However, it can be stated that Sin begins with thought, for thought governs will, and the will governs the inclination to act.
 
Great sinner and totally unnecessary.

The Romans didn’t require Judas to capture Jesus. They could have had any spy turn him in.

Jesus said it would have been better had he never been born. So obviously he is guilty, and guilt only comes from free exercise of the will, not from God’s plan to destroy Judas.
 
You may be right. Depression and other psychiatric disorders can be fatal.
I personally do not think Judas was mentally ill.
I would think that had he accepted God’s forgiveness following his repentance there would have been much good he could have done in spreading the good news. He didn’t.
So why was he a disciple? In what way was he a fisher of men.
It is probably, IMHO, a case where you have eleven positive reasons related to love, for choosing God, and one negative: avoidance of hell.
As much as I would wish otherwise, it appears that it exists.
I agree, I don’t think he was mentally ill either. To box it up that way seems to miss the entire point. His pride interefered with his salvation. His sense of right and wrong, his own will. These are what kept him from the forgiveness of God. He chose himself and evil. And he did so to his death. I have always been rather annoyed by Judas apologists and even movies such as Jesus Christ Superstar tend to take the sympathetic “hero” approach.

I think of it much more like Javert’s character in Les Mis.
And must I now begin to doubt,
Who never doubted all these years?
My heart is stone and still it trembles
The world I have known is lost in shadow.
Is he from heaven or from hell?
And does he know
That granting me my life today
This man has killed me even so?
I am reaching, but I fall
And the stars are black and cold
As I stare into the void
Of a world that cannot hold
I’ll escape now from the world
From the world of Jean Valjean.
There is nowhere I can turn
There is no way to go on…
(He throws himself into the swollen river)
His ideas of justice, God, Royalty, Salvation and deliverance so differed form the actuality of the savior, that he would rather die than face a world where his view was wrong.

Javert’s Idea of Justice was born Holy. But it turned to justice without mercy. Same with Judas. He gave up his life and followed Christ, but his own will got in the way, and God’s mercy, His Miracles, His preaching, and His forgiveness will not override a will of one of His Children.
 
Part II: "Everyone who looks at a woman with lust"

Mary, Adam, and Eve, had the fulness of Grace, and had no extenuating circumstances.


In Sacred Scripture, our Lord states the following:
“But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” - Matthew 5:28.

Our Lord also states the following:
“But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy.” - Matthew 15:18-19

In other words, it is possible to sin in thought, in word, in act, in omission, and in intention. However, it can be stated that Sin begins with thought, for thought governs will, and the will governs the inclination to act. But as Our Lord states in the above quotes, sin in thought can be equated to sin in deed. Sin in thought is equated to sin in deed, not because they are the same, but rather because the sin in thought is the seed from which sin in deed proceeds. As such, because thought brings the seed of sin, it makes it possible to sin in deed, because it is from the seed, that the plant receives its development.

Under some respect, the seed can be considered to be greater than the plant. Of course, this is not exactly true, since the plant is the developed seed. However, the seed is greater, because it is the cause, or the principle of the plant. That is to say, hence, without the seed, there would be no plant. It is in very much that same way that the Father can be considered greater than the Son, because He is the Cause, or the Principle of the Son. And it is under this respect that Christ equates lust in the heart, with lust in deed. Without the lust in the heart, there would be no lust in deed. That is, it is lust in the heart, that makes lust in deed possible.

But in order to comprehend the reason for Christ’s statement, it is necessary to understand man as a spiritual creature. For it is only in the realm of the spirit that thought and deed can truly be said to be the same thing.

If then, one can begin to accept the above principles, then it is possible to understand the matter of Judas’ culpability, or guilt. It was not necessary for Judas to commit the Deicide in deed, that is, by murdering Christ, in order for him to incur the guilt of said Deicide. All that was necessary, was for Judas to conceive it, to consent to it, and to follow the counsel of the Devil. For that same reason, no rational creature can equate the guilt of Satan because of Satan’s greater due to his angelic nature which endows him with greater intelligence, but above all, because he is the Origin, the Source, and the Cause of Evil.

Why was Judas more culpable than the chief Priests, than Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and the crowds?
  • He received greater Grace
  • He had greater Knowledge
  • He conceived, consented, and premeditated the Betrayal and the Death of Christ.
 
Great sinner and totally unnecessary.

The Romans didn’t require Judas to capture Jesus. They could have had any spy turn him in.

Jesus said it would have been better had he never been born. So obviously he is guilty, and guilt only comes from free exercise of the will, not from God’s plan to destroy Judas.
I agree. But I think that one of the arguments was that Judas understood prophecy, knew the Plan of God, the Mission of Christ, and likely thought that it was necessary for him to betray Jesus in order to fulfill Scripture.

Christ did indeed state:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” - Matthew 5:17

This implies, perhaps, as some think, that Judas was a necessary agent of the Redemption. At the same time, it also implies that Jesus was not free, not to fulfill Scripture.
 
**

If then, one can begin to accept the above principles, then it is possible to understand the matter of Judas’ culpability, or guilt. It was not necessary for Judas to commit the Deicide in deed, that is, by murdering Christ, in order for him to incur the guilt of said Deicide. All that was necessary, was for Judas to conceive it, to consent to it, and to follow the counsel of the Devil. For that same reason, no rational creature can equate the guilt of Satan** because of Satan’s greater due to his angelic nature which endows him with greater intelligence, but above all, because he is the Origin, the Source, and the Cause of Evil.

*****Correction:

For that same reason, no rational creature can equate the guilt of Satan because of Satan’s angelic nature which endows him with greater intelligence, but above all, because he is the Origin, the Source, and the Cause of Evil.
 
I agree. But I think that one of the arguments was that Judas understood prophecy, knew the Plan of God, the Mission of Christ, and likely thought that it was necessary for him to betray Jesus in order to fulfill Scripture.

Christ did indeed state:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” - Matthew 5:17

This implies, perhaps, as some think, that Judas was a necessary agent of the Redemption. At the same time, it also implies that Jesus was not free, not to fulfill Scripture.
Foreknowledge does not imply causation!

The theory that Judas believed it was necessary for him to betray Jesus in order to fulfill Scripture also seems farfetched. It casts doubt on his ability to think for himself.
 
Part II: "Everyone who looks at a woman with lust"

Mary, Adam, and Eve, had the fulness of Grace, and had no extenuating circumstances.


In Sacred Scripture, our Lord states the following:
“But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” - Matthew 5:28.

Our Lord also states the following:
“But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy.” - Matthew 15:18-19

In other words, it is possible to sin in thought, in word, in act, in omission, and in intention. However, it can be stated that Sin begins with thought, for thought governs will, and the will governs the inclination to act. But as Our Lord states in the above quotes, sin in thought can be equated to sin in deed. Sin in thought is equated to sin in deed, not because they are the same, but rather because the sin in thought is the seed from which sin in deed proceeds. As such, because thought brings the seed of sin, it makes it possible to sin in deed, because it is from the seed, that the plant receives its development.

Under some respect, the seed can be considered to be greater than the plant. Of course, this is not exactly true, since the plant is the developed seed. However, the seed is greater, because it is the cause, or the principle of the plant. That is to say, hence, without the seed, there would be no plant. It is in very much that same way that the Father can be considered greater than the Son, because He is the Cause, or the Principle of the Son. And it is under this respect that Christ equates lust in the heart, with lust in deed. Without the lust in the heart, there would be no lust in deed. That is, it is lust in the heart, that makes lust in deed possible.

But in order to comprehend the reason for Christ’s statement, it is necessary to understand man as a spiritual creature. For it is only in the realm of the spirit that thought and deed can truly be said to be the same thing.

If then, one can begin to accept the above principles, then it is possible to understand the matter of Judas’ culpability, or guilt. It was not necessary for Judas to commit the Deicide in deed, that is, by murdering Christ, in order for him to incur the guilt of said Deicide. All that was necessary, was for Judas to conceive it, to consent to it, and to follow the counsel of the Devil. For that same reason, no rational creature can equate the guilt of Satan because of Satan’s greater due to his angelic nature which endows him with greater intelligence, but above all, because he is the Origin, the Source, and the Cause of Evil.
If that were the case no one would have been able to exercise free will!
Why was Judas more culpable than the chief Priests, than Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and the crowds?
  • He received greater Grace
  • He had greater Knowledge
  • He conceived, consented, and premeditated the Betrayal and the Death of Christ.
All of these statements are questionable. Only God knows the precise extent to which a person is culpable. It is not for us to judge anyone, let alone who is in hell.
 
I agree, I don’t think he was mentally ill either. To box it up that way seems to miss the entire point.
I stated that Judas was obsessed with his own guilt, not that he was mentally ill.
His pride interfered with his salvation. His sense of right and wrong, his own will. These are what kept him from the forgiveness of God. He chose himself and evil. And he did so to his death. I have always been rather annoyed by Judas apologists and even movies such as Jesus Christ Superstar tend to take the sympathetic “hero” approach. His ideas of justice, God, Royalty, Salvation and deliverance so differed form the actuality of the savior, that he would rather die than face a world where his view was wrong.
Javert’s Idea of Justice was born Holy. But it turned to justice without mercy. Same with Judas. He gave up his life and followed Christ, but his own will got in the way, and God’s mercy, His Miracles, His preaching, and His forgiveness will not override a will of one of His Children.
There is no evidence that Judas rejected the teaching of his Master. The fact that he was stricken with guilt is diametrically opposed to the conjecture that he rejected the teaching of Christ. It is far more likely that he realised the enormity of his crime and gave way to despair - which is understandable in such circumstances. We should always give people the benefit of the doubt rather than make them scapegoats and condemn them without full knowledge of the facts.
 
I still do not understand what you are saying. 🤷 It does not further conversation when one just throws out a verse that is commonly misunderstood. It is the equivalent of just screaming John 3:16 at someone. Could you elaborate how your "words of Jesus: are sufficient. I also used words of Jesus when I said that “it would be better that he never be born”

I am just having a hard time understanding how your quote relates.
It would be more to the point to explain how** you** interpret the words of Jesus rather than use a derogatory expression like “the equivalent of just screaming John 3:16 at someone” - which requires an apology for infringing the conduct rule of courtesy…

“it would be better that he never be born” certainly does not imply that Judas is in hell.
 
It would be more to the point to explain how** you** interpret the words of Jesus rather than use a derogatory expression like “the equivalent of just screaming John 3:16 at someone” - which requires an apology for infringing the conduct rule of courtesy…

“it would be better that he never be born” certainly does not imply that Judas is in hell.
IF you wish to make a point with scripture, please do so. IF you just quote Judge not lest ye be judged over and over again without explaining what you think you are saying then conversation is not fruitful.

Do you mean that we should not speculate on the fate of Judas? Do you mean that we should not EVER condemn bad or evil actions? Do you mean that homosexuals should marry? There is a huge diversity of meanings of the scripture you still refuse to explain. Perhaps, if you mean to use it as a “gotcha” argument, you find a way to do so with more of an intellectual and respectful manner.

As to my scripture, what do you think it implies then? You are fond of stating your opinion as fact without explanation.😉
What does it imply?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top