Judas... great sinner or great necessity?

[Ion]

Judas is in Hell for sure. Even he was sorry for selling Jesus, he was not sorry for the faults for which Satan was able to enter him. And the most obvious is the “I am” hidden in his suicide. He judged himself and again contested Jesus as our Lord.

 

[tonyrey]

Judas is in Hell for sure. Even he was sorry for selling Jesus, he was not sorry for the faults for which Satan was able to enter him. And the most obvious is the “I am” hidden in his suicide. He judged himself and again contested Jesus as our Lord.

Your dogmatism is inconsistent with the Church’s teaching:

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives.** By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. **The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

It also contradicts the teaching of Jesus that for God all things are possible.

We are expected to acknowledge our ignorance, not be like Pharisees who condemn others and bring religion into disrepute.

 

[Ion]

Your dogmatism is inconsistent with the Church’s teaching:

It also contradicts the teaching of Jesus that for God all things are possible.

We are expected to acknowledge our ignorance, not be like Pharisees who condemn others and bring religion into disrepute.

I said “for sure” as my opinion and not as a fact. God is the Judge.

 

[tonyrey]

I said “for sure” as my opinion and not as a fact. God is the Judge.

“Judas is in Hell for sure” gives precisely the opposite impression! How do you know “he contested Jesus as our Lord”?

 

[djames99]

*What do you think? *

Just a little study on this passage…

And Jesus said to him: “That which thou dost, do quickly”.

For what purpose would a short time interval assist the tempted person, if indeed we are seeing an example of caring most for our brethren before ourselves? For what purpose would a long interval be a negative factor for the destined recipient of the wrong? Could doing things slowly allow for more time for discernment? What effect does a long or short interval affect the prophesied outcome, and if indeed the benefit of the other guy predominates?

In some cases we see a long duration is an asset. We see in the cases of anger and indeed the laws of our nations recommend a two week time out to permit a license to purchase a firearm so people who may purchase one in anger may have some time to reconsider and collect himself.

If one is tempted to say “don’t do it”, wouldn’t second best be a default to no suggestions at all, to be fully exempt as a contributor in the decision purpose?

It still leaves me with the question of what would occur if Jesus said nothing to him. If warning of a wrong is not appropriate, then of all the intricate variables and minutest influences that summate to a final decision, I think saying nothing is the right choice. Perhaps an extended time would have allowed that waiting influencing factor an opportunity to become part of the whole, thus turning the events to a new vector. It would allow the probability wheel to spin just that much longer to allow it to make it’s presence.

Now given Christ knew he was fulfilling the prophecy, this seemingly innocent suggestion becomes significant judicially in the final analysis, as we cannot discount it in the fact that Jesus,* who knew how the events would unfold*, needed his one last say. The fact remains *it is a suggestion to the other to action something. *

We will never know if Judas doing it slowly resulted in his remembering he had an appointment elsewhere.

 

[Ion]

“Judas is in Hell for sure” gives precisely the opposite impression! How do you know “he contested Jesus as our Lord”?

He tried to undo his wrong with another behind the back doing, when he went to give the money back. Then he judged and condemned himself.

His suicide is less evil that the betrayal, but without suicide, it would have been possible the real repentance for betrayal.

Also, we know that Judas fell because Satan entered him; but by his self judgement he somehow assumed this evil

 

[Ion]

Also, at the last Supper Jesus told Judas “What you do, do quickly”. What difference would that make for Judas? The difference were to keep Judas under the authority of Jesus, that would have been enough for a real repentance.
In the garden Jesus asked Judas “With a kiss you betray your master?”. Again, that was said to help Judas, to confront him with the fact that Jesus is his master. But Judas went to the Jews and told them “I have sinned. I have betrayed innocent blood.”
Would Judas have recognized Jesus as the Lord, he would have remembered his words and have listened to him: “Repent and believe in the gospel”

 

[tonyrey]

Also, at the last Supper Jesus told Judas “What you do, do quickly”. What difference would that make for Judas? The difference were to keep Judas under the authority of Jesus, that would have been enough for a real repentance.
In the garden Jesus asked Judas “With a kiss you betray your master?”. Again, that was said to help Judas, to confront him with the fact that Jesus is his master. But Judas went to the Jews and told them “I have sinned. I have betrayed innocent blood.”
Would Judas have recognized Jesus as the Lord, he would have remembered his words and have listened to him: “Repent and believe in the gospel”

How do you** know**** “**he contested Jesus as our Lord” and didn’t believe in the Gospel??

 

[tonyrey]

He tried to undo his wrong with another behind the back doing, when he went to give the money back. Then he judged and condemned himself.

His suicide is less evil that the betrayal, but without suicide, it would have been possible the real repentance for betrayal.

Also, we know that Judas fell because Satan entered him; but by his self judgement he somehow assumed this evil

How do you **know **he didn’t repent? Does committing suicide always incur damnation?

 

[Ion]

From the gospels. There it is written what he said and what he did.

 

[Ion]

In other words he was probably possessed and/or mentally disturbed.

If he was mentally disturbed he did not even consider whether he was submitting to God.

“perhaps” is an inadequate reason for concluding that Judas is in hell.
Hell is the result of determination to live for oneself and be totally independent. It is far more likely that Judas wanted to disappear and no longer exist at all, let alone live for himself. He hated himself not his Master. Why else did he say: “'I have sinned. I have betrayed innocent blood.” ?

Judas confessed he had committed a terrible crime. He wanted to disassociate himself from his reward because he knew he deserved to be punished. Yet the worst criminals don’t even regard themselves as evil because they worship themselves and convince themselves God doesn’t exist - or is insignificant. For them nothing matters except their own pleasure and satisfaction. They are guilty of egolatry whereas Judas regarded himself as totally unworthy of respect. No one could have had less self-esteem when he hanged himself.

Unlike St Paul, Judas couldn’t even say “For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God”. He may even have believed he had destroyed the church of God. That fact alone is enough to justify the statement of Jesus it is better for that man if he hadn’t been born. To be overwhelmed by guilt not only in this world but for all eternity is surely one of the worst punishments imaginable. No wonder so many people believe Judas is in hell. :tsktsk:

They forget that God is not only infinitely just but also infinitely loving and infinitely merciful. The inability of Judas to forgive himself was not due to malice or wilfulness but ignorance. Those who condemn him should remember the words of Jesus in answer to the question “Who then can be saved?”

Well, if Judas punished himself so badly, then he deserves to go in heavens???

 

[steph_86]

Only God knows whether Judas was in a state of mortal sin. It is not for us to condemn anyone.

Including Judas…

I agree with the above statements. Absolutely speaking, it is not possible to make a definitive judgment concerning one’s ultimate eternal fate - concerning Judas or any other soul - , whether it is Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell.

However, the Scriptures make some very stern statements concerning Judas and his fate.

“The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it.” - Matthew 26:24-25

The following statement in particular, is almost of a statement of curse, of malediction, or of doom, concerning Judas.

“While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled.” - John 17:12

The consensus opinion, is that the term son of perdition in this passage, refers to Judas. The question to be asked then, is as to why the Lord refers to the one who betrayed him, as the son of perdition. My understanding is simply that, the Deicide, which refers to Judas’ betrayal, is a malediction. From this understanding, one can infer that Judas by his Sin, forfeited his soul, and lost his salvation.

Whether this position be argued against, yes indeed, it can. But there is enough evidence in Holy Scripture in order to state that position as defensible and probable.

 

[hu324b]

I have to point out - not sure if someone did - that the bible clearly states that Satan went into him - a full possession - Satan didn’t leave it to Judas’s it was a direct intervention by Satan himself to kill Jesus - I am not saying Judas was innocent.

 

[tonyrey]

Well, if Judas punished himself so badly, then he deserves to go in heavens???

Those who are in hell have excessive love for themselves. They certainly wouldn’t punish themselves deliberately!

 

[tonyrey]

I have to point out - not sure if someone did - that the bible clearly states that Satan went into him - a full possession - Satan didn’t leave it to Judas’s it was a direct intervention by Satan himself to kill Jesus - I am not saying Judas was innocent.

The wisdom of Catholicism is demonstrated by the doctrine of purgatory which tends to be neglected yet it corresponds to God’s infinite mercy and justice. Most of us need to be purified by suffering before we can enter the kingdom of heaven. There is no doubt that Judas suffered before he died but it is not for us to judge whether he is saved or damned.

The topic is whether he was a great sinner or compelled to betray his Master but it is simplistic to think in terms of black and white with regard to human behaviour. I think it is a false dilemma. We cannot possibly know to what extent Judas was responsible for what he did. As so often the truth probably lies between the two extremes. He may well have been guilty but with the mitigating circumstance of diabolical inspiration.

 

[tonyrey]

I agree with the above statements. Absolutely speaking, it is not possible to make a definitive judgment concerning one’s ultimate eternal fate - concerning Judas or any other soul - , whether it is Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell.

However, the Scriptures make some very stern statements concerning Judas and his fate.

“The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it.” - Matthew 26:24-25

The following statement in particular, is almost of a statement of curse, of malediction, or of doom, concerning Judas.

"While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture may be fulfilled." - John 17:12

The consensus opinion, is that the term son of perdition in this passage, refers to Judas. The question to be asked then, is as to why the Lord refers to the one who betrayed him, as the son of perdition. My understanding is simply that, the Deicide, which refers to Judas’ betrayal, is a malediction. From this understanding, one can infer that Judas by his Sin, forfeited his soul, and lost his salvation.

Whether this position be argued against, yes indeed, it can. But there is enough evidence in Holy Scripture in order to state that position as defensible and probable.

Then you are faced with the problem of necessity. You imply that Satan was more powerful than Jesus who was incapable of saving Judas because he was possessed and could not act otherwise:

The fact that the phrase is used again to describe the Antichrist shows us that forgiveness was not planned for Judas. God could have saved Judas – moved his heart to repentance – but He chose not to. He was indeed “doomed to destruction.”

gotquestions.org/son-of-perdition.html#ixzz2uI9tDdGf

If Judas was** predestined** to be damned what happened to his free will and God’s infinite love for** all **His children? Calvinism has again reared its ugly head…

 

[tonyrey]

From the gospels. There it is written what he said and what he did.

Where precisely is it written that Judas didn’t repent - and committing suicide always incur damnation?

 

[tonyrey]

Also, at the last Supper Jesus told Judas “What you do, do quickly”. What difference would that make for Judas? The difference were to keep Judas under the authority of Jesus, that would have been enough for a real repentance.
In the garden Jesus asked Judas “With a kiss you betray your master?”. Again, that was said to help Judas, to confront him with the fact that Jesus is his master. But Judas went to the Jews and told them “I have sinned. I have betrayed innocent blood.”
Would Judas have recognized Jesus as the Lord, he would have remembered his words and have listened to him: “Repent and believe in the gospel”

Why would a disciple of the devil confess his sin? Surely he would have boasted about it and not felt any remorse.

The name Perdition was given to Lucifer, a son of the morning. He refused to accept the plan proposed by God the Father, for the salvation of His spirit children. For this defiant rebellion he was “thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,” and became Satan or the devil who “maketh war with the saints of God.” Those who do likewise, who follow Satan are called sons of perdition. (Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4:1-4). They are they who have known my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power." (D. & C. 76:31)
However, Lucifer was “an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God.” He had risen high in knowledge, understanding, and power. He was Lucifer, a son of the morning (of light). For his rebellion there was no excuse. He committed the unpardonable sin, in denying that of which he had full and complete knowledge. He became thereby the father of lies (See D. & C. 76:26, 32-48).
Judas told the truth to the Jews!

It is probable that only personages who have acquired similar full knowledge, who willfully and deliberately deny the truth, when they know it to be the truth, can commit the unpardonable sin and become sons of perdition.

They are sons of perdition because, “Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to open shame” (D. & C. 76:35). They must have had a fullness of knowledge; a testimony which cannot be destroyed. One must be on a high eminence to fall so low; and few in world’s history have attained such a height. It is doubtful if even Judas, who betrayed Jesus, was sufficiently enlightened to become a son of perdition (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine , p. 545). Cain was called Perdition because of his sin, but it is added “for thou wast also before the world,” implying a reason from out of the pre-existent world, for this heavy punishment (Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5:24). John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p.212
Judas almost certainly had a false concept of the Messiah which was current among the Jews and demonstrated by Peter’s words:

…22Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You.” 23But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”

Matthew 16:23

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Why would a disciple of the devil confess his sin? Surely he would have boasted about it and not felt any remorse.

Judas told the truth to the Jews!

Judas almost certainly had a false concept of the Messiah which was current among the Jews and demonstrated by Peter’s words:

Matthew 16:23

How did Mormon writings become an authority on Judas? They don’t even recognize the same God the Catholics do?

I am very confused by this post. Odd. Why would you use non christian writings to clarify a christian point?

What do the Muslims think of Judas?

 

[Ion]