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tonyrey
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SC4PROF
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Great topic! Here is how I handle the Judas conundrum in my Catechism/RCIA classes.
Q. Who was the only Apostle to stand up for Jesus when he was being accused?
A. Judas!
This is a great irony, is it not? Peter himself denied Christ 3 times and Scripture mentions that the other apostles fled but only Judas went back to Jesus’ accusers and tried to save him by recanting his accusations. When he failed he (as we all know) took his own life.
So why don’t we venerate the apostle Judas? There is only one reason - because he did not seek forgiveness. The convicted and confessed criminal on the cross next to Jesus was saved solely because he did seek forgiveness - but not Judas. Imagine if Judas had gone to the foot of the cross and begged for that same forgiveness. Would he have gotten it? Absolutely! And likewise His church would have to forgive his actions and we would hold Judas in esteem with the other apostles. But alas; he did not. Why? We’ll never know. Was it self motivated (guilt)? Externally motivated (possession)? Or was it disbelief in the ability of Christ to save him (pride)? We just don’t know.
But just for a minute, imagine if he had…
Imagine the dialogue between him and Jesus and Jesus saying something like “it was necessary, now go in peace”. It would not have changed Salvation History, but it definitely would have forever changed how we see Judas. He would have become the “patron saint of last-minute-redemption”
It reminds us that it is no sin that can not be forgiven and it is NEVER too late to seek that forgiveness.
PAX
Q. Who was the only Apostle to stand up for Jesus when he was being accused?
A. Judas!
This is a great irony, is it not? Peter himself denied Christ 3 times and Scripture mentions that the other apostles fled but only Judas went back to Jesus’ accusers and tried to save him by recanting his accusations. When he failed he (as we all know) took his own life.
So why don’t we venerate the apostle Judas? There is only one reason - because he did not seek forgiveness. The convicted and confessed criminal on the cross next to Jesus was saved solely because he did seek forgiveness - but not Judas. Imagine if Judas had gone to the foot of the cross and begged for that same forgiveness. Would he have gotten it? Absolutely! And likewise His church would have to forgive his actions and we would hold Judas in esteem with the other apostles. But alas; he did not. Why? We’ll never know. Was it self motivated (guilt)? Externally motivated (possession)? Or was it disbelief in the ability of Christ to save him (pride)? We just don’t know.
But just for a minute, imagine if he had…
Imagine the dialogue between him and Jesus and Jesus saying something like “it was necessary, now go in peace”. It would not have changed Salvation History, but it definitely would have forever changed how we see Judas. He would have become the “patron saint of last-minute-redemption”
It reminds us that it is no sin that can not be forgiven and it is NEVER too late to seek that forgiveness.
PAX
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Dick_t
Guest
Tonyrey;
Looking through the letters on the subject of Judas, I find references to “Judas had the
choice” and “your thinking not as God, but as Human being’s do”
This is where we part in our beliefs; I believe that God’s thought process is far and
above any of mans abilities to understand. St Paul, “Saul”, a devote and learned Jew
enticed and oversaw the stoning to death of the Disciple Stephen. God chose him
and put words in his mouth shortly after that on the road to, and in Damascus.
That Peter saw Judas walking with Jesus, and that all the negative things that people
say about Judas are not in the gospels.But in the minds of those to want to believe
him guilty. There is no doubt in my mind that he was guilty of no sin, but of doing what
God needed done to bring Christ to the world.
Our human minds tend to create pictures; Example; I’ve yet been able to find any
reference to Mary Magdalene being a prostitute, only of Jesus removing 7 demons from
her and her then becoming a follower of him as a part of the women that followed The Lord.
God Bless you Tony, nice conversation.
Looking through the letters on the subject of Judas, I find references to “Judas had the
choice” and “your thinking not as God, but as Human being’s do”
This is where we part in our beliefs; I believe that God’s thought process is far and
above any of mans abilities to understand. St Paul, “Saul”, a devote and learned Jew
enticed and oversaw the stoning to death of the Disciple Stephen. God chose him
and put words in his mouth shortly after that on the road to, and in Damascus.
That Peter saw Judas walking with Jesus, and that all the negative things that people
say about Judas are not in the gospels.But in the minds of those to want to believe
him guilty. There is no doubt in my mind that he was guilty of no sin, but of doing what
God needed done to bring Christ to the world.
Our human minds tend to create pictures; Example; I’ve yet been able to find any
reference to Mary Magdalene being a prostitute, only of Jesus removing 7 demons from
her and her then becoming a follower of him as a part of the women that followed The Lord.
God Bless you Tony, nice conversation.
D
Dick_t
Guest
Welcome to the forum!
I cannot find any reference to Judas being raised.
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Dick_t
Guest
Tony, I missed this, I assume that were he seen walking with Jesus on the last
day that Jesus was here after his Crucifixion and that being the same number of days
from his death, that he was raised. On occasion I too think as a human. lol
day that Jesus was here after his Crucifixion and that being the same number of days
from his death, that he was raised. On occasion I too think as a human. lol
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tonyrey
Guest
Welcome to the forum!Great topic! Here is how I handle the Judas conundrum in my Catechism/RCIA classes.
Q. Who was the only Apostle to stand up for Jesus when he was being accused?
A. Judas!
This is a great irony, is it not? Peter himself denied Christ 3 times and Scripture mentions that the other apostles fled but only Judas went back to Jesus’ accusers and tried to save him by recanting his accusations. When he failed he (as we all know) took his own life.
So why don’t we venerate the apostle Judas? There is only one reason - because he did not seek forgiveness. The convicted and confessed criminal on the cross next to Jesus was saved solely because he did seek forgiveness - but not Judas. Imagine if Judas had gone to the foot of the cross and begged for that same forgiveness. Would he have gotten it? Absolutely! And likewise His church would have to forgive his actions and we would hold Judas in esteem with the other apostles. But alas; he did not. Why? We’ll never know. Was it self motivated (guilt)? Externally motivated (possession)? Or was it disbelief in the ability of Christ to save him (pride)? We just don’t know.
But just for a minute, imagine if he had…
Imagine the dialogue between him and Jesus and Jesus saying something like “it was necessary, now go in peace”. It would not have changed Salvation History, but it definitely would have forever changed how we see Judas. He would have become the “patron saint of last-minute-redemption”
It reminds us that it is no sin that can not be forgiven and it is NEVER too late to seek that forgiveness.
PAX
:clapping: A superb and original post.
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tonyrey
Guest
I don’t believe anyone goes to Hell for lack of faith alone - and I certainly don’t believe Judas didn’t repent given his reference to “innocent blood”. It is their response “What do we care?” that indicates an evil state of mind - and culpability…
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tonyrey
Guest
Don’t we all, Dick? But it shows you have compassion for Judas and don’t condemn him outright as unforgivable. “There but for the grace of God go I…”
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tonyrey
Guest
Thank you, Dick. It is quite possible you are right. Judas could have been possessed without having done anything to deserve it, although there is a reference to his being a thief which complicates matters. Yet it is a far cry from being a thief to being a traitor.
One thing is certain, as you pointed out, he did what God needed done to bring Christ to the world. When all is said and done, that is all that matters and we should leave God to judge how far any of us are to blame for our sins.
God bless you.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Interesting. I never thought of this. But I have one question. Many Exorcists have made it quite clear that possession can only be done if the person opens a gateway for it. A Ouija Board, an idol, or a sin. So can we think of other possessions where the person’s free will was overcome by the Devil. It would seem God does not usually work that way. That free will is free will and Judas had free will.
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tonyrey
Guest
I agree with you. We are all susceptible and the higher we climb the further we can fall. Saints are more subjected to more temptation than most of us yet God’s grace gives them more strength to resist. Judas may not have been a saint but we can be sure Satan did his worst to bring about the diabolical betrayal, arrest, torture and murder of Jesus.
“Courage, mon ami, le diable est mort!” was the watchword of Denys in the novel *The Cloister and the Hearth *by Charles Reade but unfortunately it is not entirely true…
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Ion
Guest
I think that the devil entered into the most sinful of the apostles, so it was a consequence of previous wrong choices. Also, the devil was limited to push Judas to betray Jesus, only.
What do you think about Judas returning the money: did he try a reconciliation with God, confessing what he thought was his sin and making a sacrifice of money, did he try to reconcile with the Jews so they would not consider him as a traitor, did he try to undo the transaction?
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tonyrey
Guest
I believe the dominant thought in his mind was “I have betrayed innocent blood”. He was confessing he was a traitor and making a futile attempt to atone for his crime but, understandably, he thought it was unforgivable. He hanged himself because he didn’t know what else he could do.
What would we have done if we had been in his situation? He hadn’t heard the words of Jesus on the Cross on behalf of His executioners “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.” Those words could be applied to Judas because he did not foresee precisely what would happen and may have thought his Master would save Himself. He didn’t realise Jesus intended to save others rather than Himself. There is little doubt Judas was in a state of utter despair and not fully responsible for his actions. At the very least there are mitigating circumstances in spite of the horrendous consequences of his treachery.
Not one of them was fully responsible for the death of Jesus. Caiaphas believed Jesus was guilty of blasphemy, neither Herod nor Pilate condemned Him but they abdicated responsibility, the Jewish crowd didn’t believe He was the Messiah and the Roman soldiers were simply obeying their orders. Like us they were collectively responsible for His torture and execution because we are all sinners in need of redemption.
The only Person who knew precisely what He was doing was Jesus Himself! He was directly responsible because He could have prevented them from committing deicide, the greatest crime in history. Yet it was a lesser evil than not liberating us from evil with the power of His love. It is in that context we should think of Judas, not as the primary cause of the Passion and Death of Jesus but as an unwitting accomplice to the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord and Saviour…
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Ion
Guest
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Ion
Guest
You are reading too much of that Mormon texts and you understand what you should not, and do not understand what you should. No wonder we have found out about your literacy while discussing about Judas.
We are speaking about the apostles, the persons who spent 3 years at Jesus side, almost every day, and have heard the gospel with all the explanations, have seen the miracles, and even doing themselves miracles.
After such a personal experience, I think that an apostle doing a “regular” sin is as bad as the betrayal. The fall of Judas was caused by his sins, and I think in Judas we can see God’s view on “regular” sins, when was about an apostle. It is understandable why God let it happen. But the suicide was not from God, as you suggest by considering it “understandable” and taking it together with the betrayal. Seeing the consequences of his sin, the fall from the position of an apostle to that of a traitor in everybody’s eyes, no wonder he got desperate. He was supposed to bear his cross. There is a modern view of the suicide, as to consider it always the result of mental problems, but I do not think it is true.
**Tonyrey: “The only Person who knew precisely what He was doing was Jesus Himself! He was directly responsible because He could have prevented them from committing deicide, the greatest crime in history” **
Jesus was not directly responsible for his crucifixion. He let every person do his own will. He could have prevented it only by supernatural means.
Tonyrey about Judas: “an unwitting accomplice to the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord and Saviour…”
Fact is, Judas wanted the money and was not an unwitting accomplice. Fact is Judas committed suicide, and did not share in Jesus resurrection. The apostles chose another one in his place.
**Tonyrey about Judas: “? He hadn’t heard the words of Jesus on the Cross on behalf of His executioners “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do.”
“I believe the dominant thought in his mind was “I have betrayed innocent blood”. He was confessing he was a traitor and making a futile attempt to atone for his crime but, understandably, he thought it was unforgivable. He hanged himself because he didn’t know what else he could do.” **
You think the problem was he did not hear those particular words of Jesus? Why wasn’t he at foot of the cross? How can you understand “he thought it was unforgivable” after 3 YEARS with Jesus?
Why don’t we know what was in Judas’ head? Why didn’t he shout it on the streets? Wasn’t he desperate? Why didn’t he sell himself in slavery and atone not only with the money he got from betrayal? I think the dominant thought in his mind was: “everybody will treat me as a traitor”.
**Tonyrey: “Not one of them was fully responsible for the death of Jesus. Caiaphas believed Jesus was guilty of blasphemy, neither Herod nor Pilate condemned Him but they abdicated responsibility, the Jewish crowd didn’t believe He was the Messiah and the Roman soldiers were simply obeying their orders. Like us they were collectively responsible for His torture and execution because we are all sinners in need of redemption.” **
Having a trial in the middle of the night, with a death sentence? Couldn’t Herod or Pilate free him? Jesus was condemned before the trial, and everybody you mentioned wanted him dead, but they were afraid of people revenge. They are not “like us” because they did not look at Jesus as our redeemer. Saint Paul became one “like us”.
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Aloysium
Guest
Matt 11:21-25 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”
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smorin1487
Guest
I was the original poster of this question about two months ago. It kind of died, but I just want to say thanks to everyone that responded to help me with my question. I am only know having the time to return to the boards and read the responses, and it was helpful.
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Dick_t
Guest
The key word you folks keep using is"could" This action at Passover was surely
God’s plan, His way to open up the way to bring the Gentiles into His world.God
leaves very little to resources of man. I believe Judas was chosen to make it happen.
If it had been left to happen-stance, our history might have been changed drastically.
God’s plan, His way to open up the way to bring the Gentiles into His world.God
leaves very little to resources of man. I believe Judas was chosen to make it happen.
If it had been left to happen-stance, our history might have been changed drastically.
T
tonyrey
Guest
- Ad hominem.
- “your literacy” breaches the forum rule of courtesy.
- Your implication that **everything **written by Mormons is false is obviously untrue.
You have forgotten doubting Thomas…
Your speculative presumption in condemning Judas is not only unChristian but also unjustifiable. How do you know Judas was a “regular sinner”?
A false deduction. To give way to despair is not a mental problem but an understandable reaction to **an overwhelming sense of guilt - **rather than a hypothetical concern about other people’s opinion.
Self-contradiction! The fact that Jesus could have prevented His crucifixion demonstrates that He was directly responsible. He chose to do so because it was a lesser evil than not liberating us from evil. That was the ultimate purpose of His mission on earth.
How could Judas possibly know Jesus was to be resurrected? And how can you be** sure **the money was Judas’s main or sole motive for betraying his Master?
Another presumption. How do you know Judas is in hell?
Does that mean he was damned beyond all shadow of doubt??
You are underestimating both his intelligence and the enormity of his treachery. Had he witnessed any crime comparable to what he had done?
You also imply that he had no conscience whatsoever - that he was diabolically evil - even though he clearly stated “I have betrayed innocent blood”.
Do you really believe he killed himself solely because of public opinion? Why did he bother to return the money? Was it so that people would think better of him? Or was it because he realised he shouldn’t have betrayed his Master?
Not one of them was fully responsible. They were all responsible to some extent for the death of Jesus. None of them believed He was the Son of God. They were ignorant, weak and callous.
**
They are not “like us” because they did not look at Jesus as our redeemer. Saint Paul became one “like us”,
Whether we are Christians or not, all of us without exception **are collectively responsible for His torture and execution because we are all sinners in need of redemption. Our Lord died for everyone - including Judas - not just the select few. We are not expected to judge anyone but to give them the benefit of the doubt. “There but for the grace of God go I…”
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