Judas... great sinner or great necessity?

[Ion]

Moderators don’t usually intervene on the first occasion…
It is evident to everyone that the view about Judas I cited is not specifically Mormon. Your implication that I am intellectually dishonest and your surmise about my hypothetical agenda are further infringements of the forum courtesy rule.

How is weather in SLC?

 

[Ion]

Dante puts Judas in the 9th circle. The deepest part of hell. Judas, Brutus, and Cassius are in the Devils mouth, chewed for all eternity. Ptolemy Cain and others are also there.

While Dante is hardly an authority on doctrine I think he is quite relevant to the discussion from a Catholic perspective.

A suicide is in hell, this is my opinion as far as this is what I know about that person and believe as a Catholic.
But this does not exclude God’s mercy in the day of judgement as his judgement is above of what I know.
There is no contradiction with the Church teaching,because we guide ourselves by what we know and believe. The Church does not condemn to hell anybody in person.
Judas’s sin is unique and when you mention him you can’t avoid thinking of his sin. There is nobody who is going to commit exactly his sin again or something more grievous.
In as much as we know, we can say that his place is at the bottom of the pit, but that is only in as much as we know now.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Non sequitur. “hardly an authority” is an inadequate basis for the conclusion that** Judas is in hell from a Catholic perspective**.

I am sorry we cannot continue this conversation. I am satisfied that I have sufficiently provided the argument that your sources were inadequate. I have attempted to answer your questions and continue dialogue to be met with evasiveness and accusations of breaching forum rules.

Personally, I encourage you to continue to learn about Mormon writings. I was mormon for a time in my life and was quite well versed in the writings and beliefs of the LDS faith. I grew up in a mormon area and must tell you that the society that the LDS faith brings about is something to be envied. The communities that are mormon are far superior to Catholic communities that I have ever lived in. The poor are taken care of, the family is the first priority, everyone is very charitable and downright Christian in action, people are helped in job searches, young couples are matched quite well.

Provided you are well versed in your own faith, reading other faiths can be quite enlightening. I have come accross aspects of Truth in every religion I have learned about. Some more so than others. But it is always Truth that the Catholic Church has always had. Mormons have some valuable things to teach us. But all of that does not give one ounce of authority to their scripture. No aspect of the Mormon faith should lead a Catholic to ANY sort of idea of divine revelation within their scriptures.

Charitably I have to believe that you are citing them because they agree with your view on this subject and not because you are trying to proselytize for other faiths. But I encourage you to dig deeper into that particular faith, and as you do, you will find that you will not cite the writings anymore.

Ironically I was an Elder in the Mormon faith and you could be considered an Elder on these forums.

Dante, while not authoritative has much more of a Catholic view and is much more qualified to speak to this issue than Mormonism. Perhaps, that, a source that is complete fiction (dante) is more theologically sound regarding Christ, Judas and the Catholic beliefs than a religious text of another faith should tell you something.

Again, I am sorry this will not be able to continue. Please, take the time to look into the LDS faith. You will find some wonderful things and some false things.

 

[tonyrey]

I am sorry we cannot continue this conversation. I am satisfied that I have sufficiently provided the argument that your sources were inadequate. I have attempted to answer your questions and continue dialogue to be met with evasiveness and accusations of breaching forum rules.

Personally, I encourage you to continue to learn about Mormon writings. I was mormon for a time in my life and was quite well versed in the writings and beliefs of the LDS faith. I grew up in a mormon area and must tell you that the society that the LDS faith brings about is something to be envied. The communities that are mormon are far superior to Catholic communities that I have ever lived in. The poor are taken care of, the family is the first priority, everyone is very charitable and downright Christian in action, people are helped in job searches, young couples are matched quite well.

Provided you are well versed in your own faith, reading other faiths can be quite enlightening. I have come accross aspects of Truth in every religion I have learned about. Some more so than others. But it is always Truth that the Catholic Church has always had. Mormons have some valuable things to teach us. But all of that does not give one ounce of authority to their scripture. No aspect of the Mormon faith should lead a Catholic to ANY sort of idea of divine revelation within their scriptures.

Charitably I have to believe that you are citing them because they agree with your view on this subject and not because you are trying to proselytize for other faiths. But I encourage you to dig deeper into that particular faith, and as you do, you will find that you will not cite the writings anymore.

Ironically I was an Elder in the Mormon faith and you could be considered an Elder on these forums.

Dante, while not authoritative has much more of a Catholic view and is much more qualified to speak to this issue than Mormonism. Perhaps, that, a source that is complete fiction (dante) is more theologically sound regarding Christ, Judas and the Catholic beliefs than a religious text of another faith should tell you something.

Again, I am sorry this will not be able to continue. Please, take the time to look into the LDS faith. You will find some wonderful things and some false things.

It is significant that you have ignored the words of Pope Benedict:

This mystery is even more profound if one thinks of his eternal fate, knowing that Judas “repented and brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying ‘I have sinned in betraying innocent blood’” (Matthew 27:3-4). Though he departed afterward to hang himself (cf. Matthew 27:5),** it is not for us to judge his gesture, putting ourselves in God’s place, who is infinitely merciful and just. **

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3733

 

[tonyrey]

A suicide is in hell, this is my opinion as far as this is what I know about that person and believe as a Catholic.
But this does not exclude God’s mercy in the day of judgement as his judgement is above of what I know.
There is no contradiction with the Church teaching,because we guide ourselves by what we know and believe. The Church does not condemn to hell anybody in person.
Judas’s sin is unique and when you mention him you can’t avoid thinking of his sin. There is nobody who is going to commit exactly his sin again or something more grievous.
In as much as we know, we can say that his place is at the bottom of the pit, but that is only in as much as we know now.

It is significant that you have ignored the words of Pope Benedict:

This mystery is even more profound if one thinks of his eternal fate, knowing that Judas “repented and brought back the 30 pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders, saying ‘I have sinned in betraying innocent blood’” (Matthew 27:3-4). Though he departed afterward to hang himself (cf. Matthew 27:5),** it is not for us to judge his gesture, putting ourselves in God’s place, who is infinitely merciful and just. **

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3733

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

It is significant that you have ignored the words of Pope Benedict:

catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=3733

How have I ignored that?

What is interesting is your accusations and putting forth of your view but absolute refusal to address points made or questions asked. I typed that post and you responded with that!? Ok.

How have I ignored those words. It would seem the only ignoring going on is any view that does not match your own.

I will wait for meaningful dialogue.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

The Church has never EVER declared a person in Hell. Except one. Lucifer. Not Judas, not HItler, not my grandma. BUT the Church does tell is who is NOT in hell. These are the saints, the ones who are declared infallibly by the CHurch to be in heaven. Not purgatory, not hell, but heaven. The Church has never declared a non Catholic to be in heaven. And the Church has had the advantage of many many years of retrospect of people who were a part of salvation history, especially those who lived with and followed Jesus. The Roman soldier, Longinus, who pierced the side of Jesus is a Saint. Peter, who denied Jesus, is a Saint. Paul, who killed Christians and by extension, Christ, Is a Saint.

Jesus, Himself tells us, and tells us often, that people will go to hell. So, hell is populated. THis we know from scripture. What we do not know is the identity of a single person in Hell. I suppose, under the power of binding and loosing and the gift of the keys, The Church would have authority to declare a person in Hell. But at what gain? At what theological purpose?

As I have always stated, ONLY GOD HAS THE POWER TO DECLARE SOMEONE IN HELL. He could have done this scripturally or through His Holy Church. He has not.

However, it can be theologically beneficial and correct for someone to have the BELIEF that someone like Judas is in hell. It may play into a theological view of God’s ultimate JUSTICE. It may play into a theological view of Catholic repentance, that sorrow and pity are not enough. IT may play into a view of scripture that while Jesus said that we must eat his Body and Blood and we take that literally, perhaps we should take literally the threat of Hell and the reality of it. Perhaps, when a pro life faith, has a scripture about a certain person should not have been born, we should sit up and take notice.
A catholic can certainly believe that Judas is most likely in Hell, A catholic can also take the view that at the last second when he hung himself in plot of land he did, the last thing that went through his mind was a perfect contrition. Both are valid views. I agree with one more than another, but no matter what I think, I cannot influence the outcome of Judas’s eternity. Unless I suppose you want to gain a full indulgence from the Church, for the purpose of Judas to get Him out of purgatory.
I’m sure some wonky person has already done this. So, either Judas is in heaven, right next to Jesus, or he is in Hell. My theological view has nothing to do with his eternal salvation at all. But it can be beneficial.

Both views can be good and bad.

Judas is in hell.
Good: God’s Justice is indeed perfect. And mercy is also perfect. God will protect the Just and keep all order in the universe. By extension, a rapist who gets away with it on earth will still face a judgement.
I should go to confession, and not only be sorry for my sin, but truly be forgiven. I should follow peter and not Judas and go on to live and die for my Lord.
Bad. We run the risk of putting ourselves in God’s shoes and declaring a brother damned. Not just judas, but anyone.
We also can lose hope which is not a good thing. We can think, bad people like Judas go to hell, there is no hope for me.

Judas is saved.
Good: Anyone, is saveable. There is hope for even the most wicked on earth including me when I fail. No matter what I do, there is a path back. God has perfect mercy and can undo even the most horrendous sin.

Bad: Hell is not a danger. All I must do is be sorry for my sin and I am fine. Hell is not a reality, not even the worst traitors go there so I need not make time to go to confession and clean the mortal sin from my soul. Heck, there is no mortal sin. There is always the idea of invincible ignorance or an illness to excuse evil. Humans free will is ordered to always choosing the good. Baptism, and the Church are not necessary. OR worse, I can start identifying and using Judas as a viable way to get to heaven, I can canonize him by misusing the verse of “Judge not” and ignoring the verse of" Better that he not be born"

It would seem most Christians historically have sided with Judas being in hell on this issue, it would seem that the easiest and most logical conclusion when weighing what we know about scripture, Judas, Heaven and hell. BUt it is certainly an issue that we can have differing views on, without accusing others of being “judgemental” or “relativists”

I cannot declare Judas in hell. And I will be judged by the same measurement Judas was. In my view, my 100 percent catholic view, I believe Judas to be in hell. I will not pray for his intercession and I will not pray for his soul as I believe it is futile. Could I be wrong? Sure. But if Judas is not damned and is in fact in heaven, then I doubt I will be in hell for my purely Catholic understanding of scripture, good, bad, justice and injustice and mercy.

We have angels that are saints. Michael, Gabriel, etc. And we have a declaration of a person in hell. Lucifer. We know that other demons reside there as well. We know that humans will go to hell. We know that Jesus wills each of us to be born, and that he wants salvation for all. But we know that will not happen. We know that some will betray our Lord, Ignore Our Lord and sell our Lord to the accusers for profit, We know that if we do this, we would be in danger of Hell. If we die with even one mortal sin on our soul, we will join satan in Hell. We know that the CHurch so recognizes this danger that she mandates we go to confession at least once a year. Pope or Pauper, She protects all of us by mandating the sacrament of baptism and confession. We should listen to Her, we should listen to God himself in the scriptures and we should not betray our Lord and follow our pride to our death, but rather like Peter, return to Him, feed his sheep, and die in service to the Gospel and Him.

 

[tonyrey]

The Church has never EVER declared a person in Hell. Except one. Lucifer. Not Judas, not HItler, not my grandma. BUT the Church does tell is who is NOT in hell. These are the saints, the ones who are declared infallibly by the CHurch to be in heaven. Not purgatory, not hell, but heaven. The Church has never declared a non Catholic to be in heaven. And the Church has had the advantage of many many years of retrospect of people who were a part of salvation history, especially those who lived with and followed Jesus. The Roman soldier, Longinus, who pierced the side of Jesus is a Saint. Peter, who denied Jesus, is a Saint. Paul, who killed Christians and by extension, Christ, Is a Saint.

Jesus, Himself tells us, and tells us often, that people will go to hell. So, hell is populated. THis we know from scripture. What we do not know is the identity of a single person in Hell. I suppose, under the power of binding and loosing and the gift of the keys, The Church would have authority to declare a person in Hell. But at what gain? At what theological purpose?

As I have always stated, ONLY GOD HAS THE POWER TO DECLARE SOMEONE IN HELL. He could have done this scripturally or through His Holy Church. He has not.

However, it can be theologically beneficial and correct for someone to have the BELIEF that someone like Judas is in hell. It may play into a theological view of God’s ultimate JUSTICE. It may play into a theological view of Catholic repentance, that sorrow and pity are not enough. IT may play into a view of scripture that while Jesus said that we must eat his Body and Blood and we take that literally, perhaps we should take literally the threat of Hell and the reality of it. Perhaps, when a pro life faith, has a scripture about a certain person should not have been born, we should sit up and take notice.
A catholic can certainly believe that Judas is most likely in Hell, A catholic can also take the view that at the last second when he hung himself in plot of land he did, the last thing that went through his mind was a perfect contrition. Both are valid views. I agree with one more than another, but no matter what I think, I cannot influence the outcome of Judas’s eternity. Unless I suppose you want to gain a full indulgence from the Church, for the purpose of Judas to get Him out of purgatory.
I’m sure some wonky person has already done this. So, either Judas is in heaven, right next to Jesus, or he is in Hell. My theological view has nothing to do with his eternal salvation at all. But it can be beneficial.

Both views can be good and bad.

Judas is in hell.
Good: God’s Justice is indeed perfect. And mercy is also perfect. God will protect the Just and keep all order in the universe. By extension, a rapist who gets away with it on earth will still face a judgement.
I should go to confession, and not only be sorry for my sin, but truly be forgiven. I should follow peter and not Judas and go on to live and die for my Lord.
Bad. We run the risk of putting ourselves in God’s shoes and declaring a brother damned. Not just judas, but anyone.
We also can lose hope which is not a good thing. We can think, bad people like Judas go to hell, there is no hope for me.

Judas is saved.
Good: Anyone, is saveable. There is hope for even the most wicked on earth including me when I fail. No matter what I do, there is a path back. God has perfect mercy and can undo even the most horrendous sin.

Bad: Hell is not a danger. All I must do is be sorry for my sin and I am fine. Hell is not a reality, not even the worst traitors go there so I need not make time to go to confession and clean the mortal sin from my soul.Heck, there is no mortal sin. There is always the idea of invincible ignorance or an illness to excuse evil. Humans free will is ordered to always choosing the good. Baptism, and the Church are not necessary. OR worse, I can start identifying and using Judas as a viable way to get to heaven, I can canonize him by misusing the verse of “Judge not” and ignoring the verse of" Better that he not be born"

It would seem most Christians historically have sided with Judas being in hell on this issue, it would seem that the easiest and most logical conclusion when weighing what we know about scripture, Judas, Heaven and hell. BUt it is certainly an issue that we can have differing views on, without accusing others of being “judgemental” or “relativists”

I cannot declare Judas in hell. And I will be judged by the same measurement Judas was. In my view, my 100 percent catholic view, I believe Judas to be in hell. I will not pray for his intercession and I will not pray for his soul as I believe it is futile. Could I be wrong? Sure. But if Judas is not damned and is in fact in heaven, then I doubt I will be in hell for my purely Catholic understanding of scripture, good, bad, justice and injustice and mercy.

We have angels that are saints. Michael…, etc. And we have a declaration of a person in hell. Lucifer. We know that other demons reside there as well. We know that humans will go to hell. We know that Jesus wills each of us to be born, and that he wants salvation for all… We know that some will betray our Lord, Ignore Our Lord and sell our Lord to the accusers for profit, We know that if we do this, we would be in danger of Hell. If we die with even one mortal sin on our soul, we will join satan in Hell. We know that the CHurch so recognizes this danger that she mandates we go to confession at least once a year. Pope or Pauper, She protects all of us by mandating the sacrament of baptism and confession. We should listen to Her, we should listen to God himself in the scriptures and we should not betray our Lord and follow our pride to our death, but rather like Peter, return to Him, feed his sheep, and die in service to the Gospel and Him.

A well-balanced survey!

 

[tonyrey]

How is weather in SLC?

More promising than at the bottom of the pit…

 

[clem456]

It’s not that complicated.

The Church recognizes the existence of hell and that it is populated.

The Church does not declare any specific human being to be damned to hell. The Church does not “canonize” the damned like it canonizes saints.

 

[tonyrey]

It’s not that complicated.

The Church recognizes the existence of hell and that it is populated.

The Church does not declare any specific human being to be damned to hell. The Church does not “canonize” the damned like it canonizes saints.

The simplicity of wisdom - which is also relevant to the OP.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It’s not that complicated.

The Church recognizes the existence of hell and that it is populated.

The Church does not declare any specific human being to be damned to hell. The Church does not “canonize” the damned like it canonizes saints.

True.

The Church, however, has declared some angels to be saints and others to be damned.

As with St. Michael the Archangel and Satan.

 

[clem456]

True.

The Church, however, has declared some angels to be saints and others to be damned.

As with St. Michael the Archangel and Satan.

Right, but not human beings.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Right, but not human beings.

Read my post. That’s what I said.

 

[clem456]

Read my post. That’s what I said.

Hey, that’s what I said too!

 

[Baz_Pollard]

I believe it must have been a part of Our Fathers great plan, without Judas to betray Jesus how would Jesus have been arrested and lead to the end in his worldly life on the cross.

 

[Elizabeth_C]

I woke up one morning a few years ago, grabbed paper and pen and wrote about 13 pages about Judas which must have come to me in my sleep because it was so random.

Judas saw Jesus work miracles and raise people from the dead. IMO he believed Jesus was the Messiah and was determined to be an apostle so he would be an important person when Jesus “came into His kingdom.” I had the feeling that he hoped to be either the “King’s” counsellor or treasurer, or both.

What happened was that Jesus would not listen to his advice and continued to do things that seemed to set the authorities against Him. I can imagine Judas getting nervous about where it was going and he desperately wanted to belong to the winning side.

My conclusion was that his betrayal was an attempt to put Jesus into a position where He had to exert His power and claim His Kingdom. When he witnessed the Passion and Death he was horrified and had remorse…but not repentance. He felt he had been deceived, had chosen the wrong side and now was held in contempt by the Sanhedrin, Pharisees and Scribes. Being unable to live with that contempt, he chose to kill himself.

Jesus would have discerned what was in Judas’ heart and thoughts and must have looked at him with sorrow and tried to turn him away from the course he had chosen, which Judas would have hated.

No, he didn’t have to betray Jesus, the High Priest and his cronies could easily have had a false disciple infiltrate the group to spy on Jesus in order to accuse Him. Jesus would have made every effort to turn Judas away from the coming betrayal but in the end, God will not violate the free will of any person.

Judas was not a hero, he was a man who allowed his pride to rule his actions and instead of repenting and asking forgiveness he took the coward’s way out.

:twocents:

I’ve heard/read similar things, including the fact that many people (not just Judas) thought the Messiah (Jesus) would free the Jewish people literally. When Jesus did not start a revolution, it disappointed many people, and probably Judas as well. And IF Judas has been condemned to Hell (which the Church does not state!) it was only partially his non-repentence but mostly his lack of trust/faith in God. (Sorry, can’t remember the specific name for the only non-forgivable sin.)

 

[tonyrey]

I believe it must have been a part of Our Fathers great plan, without Judas to betray Jesus how would Jesus have been arrested and lead to the end in his worldly life on the cross.

Another person could have betrayed Jesus. Or Jesus could have been arrested with being betrayed by anyone…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I believe it must have been a part of Our Fathers great plan, without Judas to betray Jesus how would Jesus have been arrested and lead to the end in his worldly life on the cross.

Are you asserting that without Judas that Roman or Jewish Authorities could not have arrested Jesus!?

 

[Dick_t]

My picture is this, Judas, as all the Deciples was loved. The Gospel of John,
Chapter 13;vrs 18-30 tell’s me that God, The Holy Spirit and Jesus handled the
“necessity”. Psalm 40-9 or 41 -9 (dependent on Vogate or King James bible) prophesied
the event.
And Chapter 21 of the Gospel of John vr’s 20 to 23 shows me that Judas was raised.
Our Savior God, the Trinity, is capable of all things. Look out at the night sky on
a clear night, it’s His creation. We sometimes tend to minamize the Greatness of our God.