Judas... great sinner or great necessity?

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Dick_t said:
The key word you folks keep using is"could" This action at Passover was surely
God’s plan, His way to open up the way to bring the Gentiles into His world.God
leaves very little to resources of man. I believe Judas was chosen to make it happen.
If it had been left to happen-stance, our history might have been changed drastically.
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You are implying that Judas was compelled to betray Jesus against his will…
 
tonyrey said:
  1. Ad hominem.
  2. “your literacy” breaches the forum rule of courtesy.
  3. Your implication that **everything **written by Mormons is false is obviously untrue.
    You have forgotten doubting Thomas…
    Your speculative presumption in condemning Judas is not only unChristian but also unjustifiable. How do you know Judas was a “regular sinner”?
    A false deduction. To give way to despair is not a mental problem but an understandable reaction to **an overwhelming sense of guilt - rather than a hypothetical concern about other people’s opinion.
    Self-contradiction! The fact that Jesus could have prevented His crucifixion demonstrates that He was directly responsible. He chose to do so because it was a lesser evil than not liberating us from evil. That was the ultimate purpose of His mission on earth.
    How could Judas possibly know Jesus was to be resurrected? And how can you be     sure **the money was Judas’s main or sole motive for betraying his Master?
Another presumption. How do you know Judas is in hell?
Does that mean he was damned beyond all shadow of doubt??
You are underestimating both his intelligence and the enormity of his treachery. Had he witnessed any crime comparable to what he had done?

You also imply that he had no conscience whatsoever - that he was diabolically evil - even though he clearly stated “I have betrayed innocent blood”.
Do you really believe he killed himself solely because of public opinion? Why did he bother to return the money? Was it so that people would think better of him? Or was it because he realised he shouldn’t have betrayed his Master?
Not one of them was fully responsible. They were all responsible to some extent for the death of Jesus. None of them believed He was the Son of God. They were ignorant, weak and callous.
** Whether we are Christians or not, all of us without exception **are collectively responsible for His torture and execution because we are all sinners in need of redemption. Our Lord died for everyone - including Judas - not just the select few. We are not expected to judge anyone but to give them the benefit of the doubt. “There but for the grace of God go I…”
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Let it go… It has been over a month. Lets not pick the scabs…😃
 
Dick_t said:
Here-here-- “Let it go–”
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Do you not see that that is directed at you as well.

I must say if you insist on engaging in the debate that more than just a short post is needed. Tonrey and I have put much thought into our posts. A quip a month later is almost disrespectful.
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
Do you not see that that is directed at you as well.

I must say if you insist on engaging in the debate that more than just a short post is needed. Tonrey and I have put much thought into our posts. A quip a month later is almost disrespectful.
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👍 It implies that the condemnation of Judas is a trivial matter.
 
tonyrey said:
The truth is not a disease nor affected by the lapse of time… It is significant that you haven’t refuted any of my statements.
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I have said all I need to in post 106 which you labeled a well ballance survey. Do you have other points you feel I need to refute?
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
I have said all I need to in post 106 which you labeled a well ballance survey. Do you have other points you feel I need to refute?
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My post #141 was a response to another member which you criticised as “picking the scabs… after over a month”, implying that it was unnecessary - or even doing more harm than good…

The thread had also been revived by the OP.
 
I found this in the office of readings for the Friday in the Eleventh Week in Ordinary Time. It is a citation from the treatise on the Lord’s Prayer by Saint Cyprian, n. 24.

“He cannot be united with Christ, who has preferred to imitate Judas rather than Christ.”
 
steph_86 said:
I do agree that Judas realized the enormity of his Crime. St. Peter did too, however, He heard the call of Mercy in his conscience, and he cried, and therefore, repented. Judas, however, gave way to despair, and committed suicide, which is a mortal sin.** It is certain that had Judas heeded the call of Mercy, he too would have repented.**
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I guess the biggest question is should he have repented to do something that had to be done?

You may say he did not have to, but whoever it would have been, that person should have repented for fulfilling the scripture? I know that murder is a sin, but the way the sacrifice of Christ began had to began that way.
So I think since Christ could not have gone to Jerusalem and sacrifice Himself by Himself, whoever it was to kill Him would have been needed. So the mystery is why this person should not have been born?
 
What matters to Judas was his response to the situation that he was presented with. I don’t think he had such an understanding of God’s plan that he thought he had a necessary evil role to play. God will judge him on what he choose to do.

Judas’ reaction to the capture and death of Jesus seemed to both take him by surprise and convinced him that it condemned him. The biblical statement that it had been better that he were never born seems to indicate he was right.

Judas made a free choice. God knew what his choice would be at all times otherwise God would have made slightly different plans. God also knew that the prophecy of it would not change the freedom of the choice or the action taken.

I don’t see Judas as being a parallel to the snake of the Garden of Eden. I see him more as an opposite of Mary. If she was going to say, “no” rather than, “yes” to the Angel then she never would have been conceived without Original Sin, but both their free choices, good and bad, fit into God’s plan. This helps us understand that we are free to be any part in the plan for either good or bad, but either way God’s plan will march on with what ever free choice we make.
 
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