Judge orders lesbian reinstated to Air Force

[cyberwolf001]

Currently, I am serving in Afghanistan in a medical capacity. Heres a story for you all to think on. Recently, a femal Navy Corpsman was assigned to a MOD (this is a multi person berthing unit) with three female soldiers. One night she was called to the Hospital to assist with treatment of a number of combat casualties. When she returned to her MOD at about 0200 she opened the door and found her three roommates engaing in homosexual sex. They yelled at her to either join in or get out. She got out and went to her Chief who went to the SGTMAJ for the unit these three soldiers were part of. The next day they were administratively discharged and the Corpsman was able to return to the MOD safe in the knowledge that she would not be harrassed.

Do you all think that without Don’t ask, don’t tell this happy outcome would have occurred. I suspect her complaint would go no where and she would have to live in fear in the MOD until the Soldiers moved on or she did.

Are you all ready to bear the expense of paying benefits to gay partners, having to build housing that accomadates not only Male and Female, but gay and straight as well.

Your one dimensional thinking is truly amazing. There are consequences with all actions.

By the way, there is no shortage of Nurses in the Military above the rank of O4; frankly they stop being nurses and start being administrators. So I am not moved by the Air Force nurse loosing her really easy gig.

Finally, what do they mean by highly decorated. The USAF passes out medals like McDonalds gives away toys in a Happy Meal. PLEASE

An when it is a guy and a girl?

An what is up with slamming the USAF? One minute your all for protect our troops then you slam a branch for being to liberal with medals.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

Currently, I am serving in Afghanistan in a medical capacity. Heres a story for you all to think on. Recently, a femal Navy Corpsman was assigned to a MOD (this is a multi person berthing unit) with three female soldiers. One night she was called to the Hospital to assist with treatment of a number of combat casualties. When she returned to her MOD at about 0200 she opened the door and found her three roommates engaing in homosexual sex. They yelled at her to either join in or get out. She got out and went to her Chief who went to the SGTMAJ for the unit these three soldiers were part of. The next day they were administratively discharged and the Corpsman was able to return to the MOD safe in the knowledge that she would not be harrassed.

Do you all think that without Don’t ask, don’t tell this happy outcome would have occurred. I suspect her complaint would go no where and she would have to live in fear in the MOD until the Soldiers moved on or she did.

Are you all ready to bear the expense of paying benefits to gay partners, having to build housing that accomadates not only Male and Female, but gay and straight as well.

Your one dimensional thinking is truly amazing. There are consequences with all actions.

By the way, there is no shortage of Nurses in the Military above the rank of O4; frankly they stop being nurses and start being administrators. So I am not moved by the Air Force nurse loosing her really easy gig.

Finally, what do they mean by highly decorated. The USAF passes out medals like McDonalds gives away toys in a Happy Meal. PLEASE

I’m also a veteran of Afghanistan, and I’m an active-duty JAG.

DADT probably resulted in their administrative discharge, because that’s what policy requires. But even without DADT, these sailors would have been in violation of General Order 1 and subject to . . . most probably NJP - and perhaps redeployment (just like all the other soldiers, sailors, and marines who violate that order).

Your arguments about building housing puzzle me - we already have barracks and family housing, neither of which is sufficient for most of our military members (most live on the economy). And there’s nothing about repealing DADT that has anything to do with establishing dependency for pay and allowance purposes.

Quite the opposite, that would deal with another law entirely.

I think most active-duty personnel don’t really care a bit about repealing DADT.

Despite with the talking heads - and Lady GaGa - seem to think, the long-overdue repeal of the DADT law will be met in the miltary by a collective yawn.

Pax,
OA

 

[Cubsfan]

So how many straight guys have been discharged for having sex and not getting along with their roommates?

Nobody said close quarters living was easy for anyone, but if adults can’t sort out simple roommate disputes without the intervention of command, I question whether they are capable of dealing with one of the most volatile areas of the world.

This problem you mention is not high-order mathematics or rocket science. You work out times when people can have some privacy, find someplace other than quarters for romps and use the old coathanger on the door code.

Its a combat zone get it! This is not a college dorm. No one should be subject to having group sex take place in their quarters.

 

[Cubsfan]

An when it is a guy and a girl?

An what is up with slamming the USAF? One minute your all for protect our troops then you slam a branch for being to liberal with medals.

!) I am not advocating for consensual heterosexual sex between consenting adults in a combat zone. Same punishment should apply.

1. I am not slamming the USAF, I am merely pointing out that if one stays in long enough in the Air Force (and the Army for that matter) one will accumulate a number of medals, and thus become “Highly Decorated” the implication in the story was that the person was on par with Audie Murphy, and thus indispensible. Sorry no one is irreplaceable.

 

[kenofken]

Its a combat zone get it! This is not a college dorm. No one should be subject to having group sex take place in their quarters.

If that’s the worst thing that happens to someone in a combat zone, they should count themselves lucky. All I’m saying is it can be addressed very effectively without something as odious as DADT. If this really amounted to sexual harassment or intimidation, there are laws to deal with that. If sexual activity in those quarters is unlawful, it can be dealt with at that level and should apply equally.

Presumably the real problem here is that she was being denied the use of her own quarters during what is probably limited time to sleep etc. It would have been a problem if it was hetero sex too. If it’s a case of ongoing friction among roommates, that too can be sorted out without discharging anyone. Senior NCOs deal in human drama all the time and things get worked out. Sacking three people with years of training and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in them is a pretty poor solution to a roommate dispute. And this person is probably at higher risk of harassment than before as the three discharged likely may have friends remaining in the unit.

The main problem with DADT is that is usually has nothing to do with disciplinary breaches at all. Most who get discharged under it were doing their jobs and keeping out of trouble

 

[Cubsfan]

I’m also a veteran of Afghanistan, and I’m an active-duty JAG.

DADT probably resulted in their administrative discharge, because that’s what policy requires. But even without DADT, these sailors would have been in violation of General Order 1 and subject to . . . most probably NJP - and perhaps redeployment (just like all the other soldiers, sailors, and marines who violate that order).

Your arguments about building housing puzzle me - we already have barracks and family housing, neither of which is sufficient for most of our military members (most live on the economy). And there’s nothing about repealing DADT that has anything to do with establishing dependency for pay and allowance purposes.

Quite the opposite, that would deal with another law entirely.

I think most active-duty personnel don’t really care a bit about repealing DADT.

Despite with the talking heads - and Lady GaGa - seem to think, the long-overdue repeal of the DADT law will be met in the miltary by a collective yawn.

Pax,
OA

So really think that once don’t ask don’t tell is repealed that will be the end of it eh!

You go ahead and keep thinking that, actions have consequences intended and unintended.

Many bachelor quaters place members of the same sex in a room togehter. So what happens when a straight guy (or girl) gets put into a room with an openly gay roommate? How is this different than making a male and female room together?

As for the repeal of Don’t ask don’t tell, you maybe right it maybe met with a yawn. But unlike you I am a knuckle dragging orthodox Catholic who sees this for what it is a further deterioration of our society.

 

[Cubsfan]

If that’s the worst thing that happens to someone in a combat zone, they should count themselves lucky. All I’m saying is it can be addressed very effectively without something as odious as DADT. If this really amounted to sexual harassment or intimidation, there are laws to deal with that. If sexual activity in those quarters is unlawful, it can be dealt with at that level and should apply equally.

Presumably the real problem here is that she was being denied the use of her own quarters during what is probably limited time to sleep etc. It would have been a problem if it was hetero sex too. If it’s a case of ongoing friction among roommates, that too can be sorted out without discharging anyone. Senior NCOs deal in human drama all the time and things get worked out. Sacking three people with years of training and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in them is a pretty poor solution to a roommate dispute. And this person is probably at higher risk of harassment than before as the three discharged likely may have friends remaining in the unit.

The main problem with DADT is that is usually has nothing to do with disciplinary breaches at all. Most who get discharged under it were doing their jobs and keeping out of trouble

I don’t see that service in the military is a basic right guaranteed by the Constitution it is a privelege to serve and one needs to follow the rules whe one is chosen to serve.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

!) 2) I am not slamming the USAF, I am merely pointing out that if one stays in long enough in the Air Force (and the Army for that matter) one will accumulate a number of medals, and thus become “Highly Decorated” the implication in the story was that the person was on par with Audie Murphy, and thus indispensible. Sorry no one is irreplaceable.

What article anywhere claimed that she was on a par with Audie Murphy? When I was in the Air Force, I got decorations for my service, such as the Vietnam Service Medal. That didn’t make me highly decorated; it more than anything told people where I’d been and what units I’d served with.

The Air Force doesn’t hand out medals indiscriminately. She undoubtedly earned the medals she had.

 

[kenofken]

So really think that once don’t ask don’t tell is repealed that will be the end of it eh!

You go ahead and keep thinking that, actions have consequences intended and unintended.

Many bachelor quaters place members of the same sex in a room togehter. So what happens when a straight guy (or girl) gets put into a room with an openly gay roommate? How is this different than making a male and female room together?

As for the repeal of Don’t ask don’t tell, you maybe right it maybe met with a yawn. But unlike you I am a knuckle dragging orthodox Catholic who sees this for what it is a further deterioration of our society.

What happens when a straight guy gets assigned a room with an openly gay roommate? Well first of all, they would both have the advantage of working from a position of opennes and honesty, unlike the culture of coercion, secrecy and backstabbing that DADT fosters. Most gay guys have the judgement not to make advances on people whose orientation they don’t know or whom they know is straight. Gay men tell me that for a variety of reasons, most straight guys due to their mannerisms, culture, whatever, do not appeal to them.

The rest can easily be handled by codes of conduct, professionalism, respect and in some cases, separate housing. None of it amounts to rocket science, and none of it bears a cost tag that would raise any eybrows in a world where $100 million peices of equipment are everywhere. Nor would we have to reinvent the wheel on this. Many of Europe’s armies and Israel have been doing this for years. We have on the ground experience and policies which have been road tested to work from. None of these forces could be considered in anyway to be demoralized or ineffective as the result of allowing openly gay soldiers.

Can I tell you with a straight face that there will never be problems? Of course not. But they can be managed by recruiting, culture and training, and when that fails, the same discilplinary mechanisms that all soldiers are subject to. In return, we will get the willing and eager service of a whole class of young men and women who include some of the brightest and most intelligent our nation has to offer. For whatever reasons, the overwhelming number of gay men and women I have met in the civilian sector have been very hard working, highly organized and utterly professional. I don’t think our military is in any position in this world to write off such people without damn good reason.

I won’t touch the whole knuckle-dragging characterization of anyone, but I will say that many otherwise good-hearted Catholic and Christian folks believed that racial integration of the military was a harbinger of social deterioration and a violation of how God meant people to live. That’s for real, and it happened within a generation of most of us on this board. Of course we all know how that story ended. With a yawn.

 

[kenofken]

I don’t see that service in the military is a basic right guaranteed by the Constitution it is a privelege to serve and one needs to follow the rules whe one is chosen to serve.

Something much more fundamental than the Constitution is at stake here: the ideas of right action and honor. Your vet benefits - medical care, disability pay etc, are not enumerated in the Constition. But you probably wouldn’t accept that argement if you were sent home with a life altering injury and your benefits were revoked because some Congressional accountant thought it best. It would be a breach of honor and trust, to say the least.

DADT is a lot like that. It says to gay soldiers “we’ll accept your service and use you as we see fit, but if you make any enemies who out you, all of your service and our obligations to you are out the window, at our discretion, regardless of your own conduct.”

If that’s really what our country is going to stand for, I don’t see where it’s worth defending anymore.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

So really think that once don’t ask don’t tell is repealed that will be the end of it eh!

You go ahead and keep thinking that, actions have consequences intended and unintended.

Many bachelor quaters place members of the same sex in a room togehter. So what happens when a straight guy (or girl) gets put into a room with an openly gay roommate? How is this different than making a male and female room together?

As for the repeal of Don’t ask don’t tell, you maybe right it maybe met with a yawn. But unlike you I am a knuckle dragging orthodox Catholic who sees this for what it is a further deterioration of our society.

I would appreciate it if you chose not to disparage me by speculating whether or not I’m an Orthodox Catholic - you don’t know me well enough.

Pax,
OA

 

[RobHom]

**HOOAH! **My brother is a Nam vet 11B Infantry, Rob thank you for my freedom brother.

Thank you my Brother!! I pray and trust your brother came home OK, and I value your service as well!! I was 17K on the Cambodian border in the Mekong south of Chau Duc, for a loooonnnggg time!! 69th Inf Det (GSR), MACV attached.

 

[RobHom]

Currently, I am serving in Afghanistan in a medical capacity. Heres a story for you all to think on. Recently, a femal Navy Corpsman was assigned to a MOD (this is a multi person berthing unit) with three female soldiers. One night she was called to the Hospital to assist with treatment of a number of combat casualties. When she returned to her MOD at about 0200 she opened the door and found her three roommates engaing in homosexual sex. They yelled at her to either join in or get out. She got out and went to her Chief who went to the SGTMAJ for the unit these three soldiers were part of. The next day they were administratively discharged and the Corpsman was able to return to the MOD safe in the knowledge that she would not be harrassed.

Not to be snide, but you say you are serving in a “medical capacity”…First, thank you for your voluntary service to our nation…You ARE to be commended!!

But I have to question the veracity of your statements as second or third hand information.
I say this tongue in cheek, because I was not there, but at the same time I ask myself how a commander could eliminate three serving members of their staff over one persons claim. Was there an Article 31 investigation? An administrative Discharge such as a Chapter 5 or other discharge takes far more than one day…its a rather ongoing process subject to due process…jagdefense.com/administrative-discharge.php So please don’t try to pipe sunshine to people living in the real world.

Do you all think that without Don’t ask, don’t tell this happy outcome would have occurred. I suspect her complaint would go no where and she would have to live in fear in the MOD until the Soldiers moved on or she did.

I don’t think it would make any difference one way or the other. When I was in the service well prior to DADT…personal objections to bunking in rooms with individuals with certain peccadilloes was often worked through to the betterment of all involved.

Are you all ready to bear the expense of paying benefits to gay partners, having to build housing that accomadates not only Male and Female, but gay and straight as well.

Non-issue since the vast majority of military members with dependents have historically lived off-post or on-the-economy…

Your one dimensional thinking is truly amazing. There are consequences with all actions

Yes there are consequences with all actions. But as a real combat veteran…were I to be wounded in combat I wouldn’t care if the Flight Nurse on my Evac Flight had 3 eyes and I certainly wouldn’t be concerned with her sexual preference…Shame on me, but all I would be concerned with would be surviving and returning to the battle or living to see another sunrise…not who she is in love with.

By the way, there is no shortage of Nurses in the Military above the rank of O4; frankly they stop being nurses and start being administrators. So I am not moved by the Air Force nurse loosing her really easy gig.

So you claim…but then maybe you would like to explain to us why the military services are offering $20,000 to $30,000 sign up bonuses to Nurses??? Oh wait…too many administrators and not enough indians? Please…no BS, OK?

Finally, what do they mean by highly decorated. The USAF passes out medals like McDonalds gives away toys in a Happy Meal. PLEASE

Oh, really… my friends that served in the Air Force for many years said otherwise…and they further stated that attaining rank was not easy and was a matter or professional proficiency coupled with “slot availability”… Please stick to facts or stay silent, OK?

 

[A_Fortiori_33]

So really think that once don’t ask don’t tell is repealed that will be the end of it eh!

You go ahead and keep thinking that, actions have consequences intended and unintended.

Many bachelor quaters place members of the same sex in a room togehter. So what happens when a straight guy (or girl) gets put into a room with an openly gay roommate? How is this different than making a male and female room together?

As for the repeal of Don’t ask don’t tell, you maybe right it maybe met with a yawn. But unlike you I am a knuckle dragging orthodox Catholic who sees this for what it is a further deterioration of our society.

Have you ever served in the armed forces?

 

[Cubsfan]

I would appreciate it if you chose not to disparage me by speculating whether or not I’m an Orthodox Catholic - you don’t know me well enough.

Pax,
OA

I called myself a knuckle dragging Orthodox Catholic. How is that disparaging you?

 

[Cubsfan]

Something much more fundamental than the Constitution is at stake here: the ideas of right action and honor. Your vet benefits - medical care, disability pay etc, are not enumerated in the Constition. But you probably wouldn’t accept that argement if you were sent home with a life altering injury and your benefits were revoked because some Congressional accountant thought it best. It would be a breach of honor and trust, to say the least.

DADT is a lot like that. It says to gay soldiers “we’ll accept your service and use you as we see fit, but if you make any enemies who out you, all of your service and our obligations to you are out the window, at our discretion, regardless of your own conduct.”

If that’s really what our country is going to stand for, I don’t see where it’s worth defending anymore.

So what about the soldier who test positive for Marijauna use, or the Soldier who gains too much weight, or the soldier who has an affair and gets caugt. IF these people all served honorably are they too being dishonored.

 

[Cubsfan]

Something much more fundamental than the Constitution is at stake here: the ideas of right action and honor. Your vet benefits - medical care, disability pay etc, are not enumerated in the Constition. But you probably wouldn’t accept that argement if you were sent home with a life altering injury and your benefits were revoked because some Congressional accountant thought it best. It would be a breach of honor and trust, to say the least.

DADT is a lot like that. It says to gay soldiers “we’ll accept your service and use you as we see fit, but if you make any enemies who out you, all of your service and our obligations to you are out the window, at our discretion, regardless of your own conduct.”

If that’s really what our country is going to stand for, I don’t see where it’s worth defending anymore.

There is something far more fundamental here it is called future of civilization itself.

 

[kenofken]

So what about the soldier who test positive for Marijauna use, or the Soldier who gains too much weight, or the soldier who has an affair and gets caugt. IF these people all served honorably are they too being dishonored.

All of those things have a rational basis for punishment in that they render a soldier a danger to themselves and others and unfit for duty. Adultery is iffy in that respect. If someone is conducting an affair with a fellow service member’s spouse, it’s obviously corrosive to unit cohesion and morale.

Being gay has in no way been demonstrated to damage one’s effectiveness as a soldier nor to affect unit morale in any way that is reasonable worth accommodating. (White supremecists no doubt hate having to serve with black guys, but for 60 some years now, the military has wisely said “too bad.” )

 

[kenofken]

There is something far more fundamental here it is called future of civilization itself.

Yes, the future of civilization itself is at stake, and it’s being threatnened by guys with nuclear ambitions and a dreams of martyrdom. Throwing our best men and women off of defense for a stupid thing like their orientation helps those who threaten civilization. It makes as much sense as publishing our satellite feed encryption codes in Waziristan.

If you really believe enforcing sexual purity is the bottom line of our national interest, we really have no argument with the Taliban. We ought to be signing surrender papers or forming a joint government.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

All of those things have a rational basis for punishment in that they render a soldier a danger to themselves and others and unfit for duty. Adultery is iffy in that respect. If someone is conducting an affair with a fellow service member’s spouse, it’s obviously corrosive to unit cohesion and morale…

And that is why adultery is an Article 134 offense, which means that the keystone element is that the offensive act must be “to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces.”

As a result, adultery is almost never charged. And most cases that are charged involve sleeping with another servicemember’s spouse, open and notorious acts, or sleeping with a senior or subordinate in the same chain of command.

Pax,
OA

PS: Cubsfan, I took offense at the “unlike you . . . I’m . . . an Orthodox Catholic” - there was more than one way to interpret the sentence, and I apparently didn’t interpret it as you intended.