Judge rules Obamacare unconstitutional, endangering coverage for 20 million

[Metis1]

The reality is that if nations with less wealth can have medical delivery systems that cover all and with better outcomes and less cost, we’d be fools to continue with our for-profit delivery system and not look into what they do that might help us renew our system to build a better one.

Our history with major projects like the ACA, Social Security, Medicare, etc., is that there always going to be problems initially but that the smart thing to do is to tweak and tweak some more to get it right, which is what we have had to do in each of these areas. Even our Constitution became a byproduct of the Articles of Confederation that had too many flaws, but we didn’t give up on having a basic “law of the land”, thus the Constitution.

We can do better, and doing better isn’t going to happen on its own with what we have now. Certainly we can keep some things that are working well, so I am not proposing throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

So, why weren’t charities filling that gap and providing health care to those people if they are so good at doing that? And I’m not talking about emergency care.

No one, not even foreign nationals here illegally, could be turned down st an emergency room for care.

I say in my post that I’m not talking about emergency care and you respond that people can go to emergency rooms for care.

Did you even read my post or the one after it? How, for example, is going to an emergency room going to help someone with diabetes who needs to take insulin every day or someone with asthma who needs to use inhalers and other medications to control their asthma? Do you think that someone like that should go to the emergency room every day? Emergency rooms aren’t going to solve the problems that people with chronic health conditions have. Nor can charities really cover those costs. If a patient needs insulin that costs $1000 a month, that’s $12,000 a year and that’s just one patient. Most charities don’t have the money for those kinds of needs.

 

[JonNC]

I say in my post that I’m not talking about emergency care and you respond that people can go to emergency rooms for care.

Oh, so you want to ignore what government has done in this regard?

How, for example, is going to an emergency room going to help someone with diabetes who needs to take insulin every day or someone with asthma who needs to use inhalers and other medications to control their asthma?

Oh, I think it is a terrible solution, not surprising since it is a government solution. I certainly don’t think it wize to get government to fix what they messed up.

Do you think that someone like that should go to the emergency room every day? Emergency rooms aren’t going to solve the problems that people with chronic health conditions have. Nor can charities really cover those costs. If a patient needs insulin that costs $1000 a month, that’s $12,000 a year and that’s just one patient. Most charities don’t have the money for those kinds of needs.

Of course I don’t, and that’s the point. Goihas proven over and over that it is not capable of providing quality care. It needs to get out of the way and let a combination of market forces and charities fix the mess government has created.

 

[Thorolfr]

Of course I don’t, and that’s the point. Goihas proven over and over that it is not capable of providing quality care. It needs to get out of the way and let a combination of market forces and charities fix the mess government has created.

I think that you’re wrong that government can’t provide quality care. I rely on the government for my healthcare and have an excellent primary care doctor, and go to the same specialists as the people who have private health care insurance. In the past, I couldn’t get private health insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

 

[JonNC]

I think that you’re wrong that government can’t provide quality care. I rely on the government for my healthcare and have an excellent primary care doctor, and go to the same specialists as the people who have private health care insurance. In the past, I couldn’t get private health insurance because of pre-existing conditions.

That’s curious since you spent the better part of you last two posts accurately describing how badly government has handled healthcare.
Maybe the solution is choice. If you want government healthcare, pay the government for it. If you want private healthcare, you keep your money and government stays out of your personal business.
For those who can’t afford it, a joint effort by churches, charities, state and local governments.

 

[Thorolfr]

That’s curious since you spent the better part of you last two posts accurately describing how badly government has handled healthcare.
Maybe the solution is choice. If you want government healthcare, pay the government for it. If you want private healthcare, you keep your money and government stays out of your personal business.
For those who can’t afford it, a joint effort by churches, charities, state and local governments.

If the government has handled it badly, it’s because they haven’t adopted universal health care for everyone like most European countries have. I certainly wouldn’t want to rely on churches or charities for my health care if I was poor.

 

[JonNC]

If the government has handled it badly, it’s because they haven’t adopted universal health care for everyone like most European countries have.

I’ve never understood the philosophy of government handles powerbadly so give them more power.

I certainly wouldn’t want to rely on churches or charities for my health care if I was poor.

I certainly do not believe if someone is relying on others for help they should have the choice to force someone, or have the government force people to help them.

 

[Thorolfr]

I certainly do not believe if someone is relying on others for help they should have the choice to force someone, or have the government force people to help them.

So, what if someone’s house is burning down? Should they reasonably expect that there would be a fire department to put the fire out since that would require the government forcing people to pay taxes, some of which go towards supporting things like fire departments? And what about if someone is being robbed? Can they reasonably expect for there to be a police department that other people are forced to support through their taxes? Maybe fire departments and police departments should have to rely on individual donations from people who want to support them where people can pay however much or little they want.

 

[JonNC]

So, what if someone’s house is burning down? Should they reasonably expect that there would be a fire department to put the fire out since that would require the government forcing people to pay taxes, some of which go towards supporting things like fire departments?

Is the federal government in charge of fire departments? Are you required to pay a premium for fire department service?
Have you never heard of volunteer fire departments? Should they be outlawed and taken over by the federal government?

And what about if someone is being robbed? Can they reasonably expect for there to be a police department that other people are forced to support through their taxes?

Are you required to buy a house robbery insurance policy, and if you don’t, you pay an extra tax?
But police are an interesting comparison, since police cannot be held responsible if a robber breaks in to your house and they aren’t there to stop it. When police cars say “to serve and protect “, they mean in a general sense, not a contract to protect you personally.

It’s s false comparison any way you look at it.
Additionally, in a previous post I mentioned that state and local governments could play a role.

 

[Thorolfr]

Additionally, in a previous post I mentioned that state and local governments could play a role.

So, you would be OK then if states forced their residents to support universal health care for all residents of the state through their state taxes?

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Additionally, in a previous post I mentioned that state and local governments could play a role.

So, you would be OK then if states forced their residents to support universal health care for all residents of the state through their state taxes?

I would not be in favor of it, but that would be better than a government dictated health system under the control of Donald Trump. Wouldn’t you agree? And light years better than one controlled by someone like Obama.

What I really favor is individual freedom. Yeah, I know how outdated that is.

 

[Stephen_C]

The word freedom (individual or otherwise) rings hollow for those who cannot afford their medication or to visit a Doctor and such. I suppose they have the freedom to choose between food or med’s and such. If that is indeed a choice. Sacrificed on your altar (individual or otherwise) of freedom. I had asked you if all this is a right or privilege. You said it was a right. All I see from you is that it is a privilege. Life is good if you can afford such things. Not so much if you cannot. Oh well so sad… Your free! Nothing more to say. have a blessed and healthy life

 

[Stephen_C]

And just one more little thing. How a society treats the least of its people. Speaks volumes about that society. There are some that have bent over backwards characterizing such as no more then bloodsucking leaches.

 

[JonNC]

The word freedom (individual or otherwise) rings hollow for those who cannot afford their medication or to visit a Doctor and such.

It also rings hollow under government coercion. That’s why I favor caring for the needs of those who need help, not by government dictates and bureaucracies, but by churches and charities and if needed, local and state governments.

Sacrificed on your altar (individual or otherwise) of freedom. I had asked you if all this is a right or privilege. You said it was a right. All I see from you is that it is a privilege.

My altar of freedom is far more valuable than your altar of tyranny.
It is a right, and that is precisely why government should stay out of it. Rights are neither created by nor provided for by government. Rights are antecedent to government.
If government takes over, it becomes a privilege, as easily rescinded as granted. And that’s what government healthcare does: rations, queues, and if it pleases, denies.

Life is good if you can afford such things. Not so much if you cannot. Oh well so sad… Your free! Nothing more to say. have a blessed and healthy life

It is a false and dangerous premise that if government doesn’t take care of people no one will. It is the playground of tyrants and despots.
It is remarkable how those who claim they care the most are certain they would turn their backs on the poor unless government is running the show.

 

[Stephen_C]

Oh btw there is not a charity I know of that has the resources money or otherwise can pick up the mantle to provide health care to all those in need of it. At least in the US.

 

[JonNC]

Jon I am done. You can scream "Freedom (individual or otherwise) from the top of your lungs. All you want. Meanwhile the sick and poor just get sicker and poorer. We are a society. Only as strong as it’s weakest link. Have a blessed and healthy life.

And the only solution is government. The unwillingness to look at nothing but government is the weakest link in society.

 

[JonNC]

Oh btw there is not a charity I know of that has the resources money or otherwise can pick up the mantle to provide health care to all those in need of it. At least in the US.

Not as long as government takes all the resources and sets all the regulations. The only difference between the possible resources is government collects resources by coercion. It is the same people with the same wealth.

 

[Stephen_C]

Well dang it. I said I was done. How about how we as a society would…

 

[Stephen_C]

But we as a society (it seems) are just too busy marginalizing and demonizing those who are the least of us.

 

[JonNC]

Well dang it. I said I was done. How about how we as a society would…

Start with the market. Allow for large voluntary associations nationwide to negotiate with providers and insurance companies to set prices and coverage.
Facilitate NGOs such as churches and charities, backed by state and local governments to care for the poor in their area.

Beyond all of that, however, is the dishonesty about single payer or any other government dictated healthcare. It is incredibly expensive. The tax rates in Europe for such programs is astounding, and not just for the wealthy.
There’s an old saying that a government powerful enough to provide for all your needs is powerful enough to take all you have.