Judge rules Obamacare unconstitutional, endangering coverage for 20 million

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FYI -

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Reading is FUN-damental.
 
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DENNYINMI said:
I’m happy you mention this because this begs the question of what is considered an inherent right.

From a Catholic teaching perspective we acknowledge health care as an inherent right because it deals with the dignity of a person.
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I agree it is an inherent right. Therefore, government should not interfere in it. Government should not be involved in it since it is a right.
DENNYINMI said:
It is also a moral issue. And for those that cannot afford health care or work jobs that do not provide it?
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that is what the Church is supposed to do. The Church should not cede it’s call from Christ to government. Christ calls us to care for the least of His Children, not render that call unto Caesar.
DENNYINMI said:
I would then suggest to you that the government (as big and bad and as intrusive as some believe it to be) have stepped in to regulate what corporations consisting of individuals have made a mess of. Caps on lifetime medical care, sky high premiums, refusal of care or refusal of access due to a pre-existing condition.
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That can be done just as easily by large interstate healthcare associations. Many of these problems are government created. Government is not the solution.
DENNYINMI said:
The individual is sovereign in our society until the rights of others are tread on.
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If I tread on your rights, then I am not practicing rights, but license.
DENNYINMI said:
I’ve said this too many times to count, our government has put regulations and laws in place due to reactionary necessity. In other words, not because someone might do someone wrong, but because they did!~ Hence, we are a re-actionary government, hardly pro-active.
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I’ve said this so many times: why are those who favor government dictated healthcare unwilling to call for a constitutional amendment? That’s the proper way to react. that’s the way to be proactive.
 
Inisfallen said:
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JonNC:
That doesn’t make it enumerated. The SCOTUS might say it is constitutional, but that doesn’t make it enumerated.
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No, but it makes it constitutional.
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I never denied that. There are a number of things that the Court has declared constitutional and they were wrong. Roe is one. ACA is another.
 
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pnewton said:
You keep saying this as if the Supreme Court has ruled healthcare programs and other social services as unconstitutional based on it not being an enumerated power.
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Not me. I simply said it is not an enumerated power. I believe the Court was wrong, but that doesn’t matter anymore than those who think the Court was wrong about Citizens United, for example.
pnewton said:
We do not get to be our own interpreter of the Constitution. Unless the Supreme court defines a program as unconstitutional for not falling with in the power of the federal government, anyone’s personal opinion is not relevant to reality.
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No argument. It still isn’t an enumerated power.
 
JonNC said:
Roe is one. ACA is another.
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Roe is morally wrong, of course, but not legally wrong (I mean, it may be legally wrong, and there is a body of legal thought that says it is wrong, but in a practical sense, the Constitution means what the Supreme Court says it means, and it’s not legally wrong until the Supreme Court says so). Abortion is permitted in the United States, because the Supreme Court says it is.

The ACA is a somewhat different story. It’s morally right, or closer to right than we had before. And the Supreme Court has said that it is constitutional (somewhat surprisingly, under the taxing authority of the the federal government).

The Constitution was not handed down by God. It is not divine writ. It is a very good effort by fallible, sinful human beings to establish a framework for a true government of and by the people, and by and large it does a pretty good job. That said, it permits things that are morally impermissable (i.e., Roe). That’s just a fact we have to live with, and try to remedy as best we can.
 
JonNC said:
I’ve said this so many times: why are those who favor government dictated healthcare unwilling to call for a constitutional amendment?
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One can sneak a lot of assumptions and meanings into a statement by tricky wording. Those of use who favor a national health insurance plan (as opposed to a UK-style national health care scheme) do not favor “government dictated healthcare.” We would like to see a plan that provides access to health care for all, regardless of income. Not the same thing at all.

And yes, a constitutional amendment defining and making immutable the right to healthcare for all (which is absolutely consistent with Catholic teaching) is something we’d probably all like to see. But we know we’re not going to get it. So we’ll settle for effective legislation, consistent with the Constitution as it is now.
 
Inisfallen said:
The ACA is a somewhat different story. It’s morally right, or closer to right than we had before. And the Supreme Court has said that it is constitutional (somewhat surprisingly, under the taxing authority of the the federal government).
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ACA is morally wrong, as well, but for different reasons than Roe (though ACA has the HHS Mandate that approaches the same immorality as Roe).
 
JonNC said:
that is what the Church is supposed to do. The Church should not cede it’s call from Christ to government. Christ calls us to care for the least of His Children, not render that call unto Caesar.
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The Church (Christs voice on earth) beginning with the Words of Christ has called us to give a coat when we have two, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison and all thing related to charity.

Within that same breath is seems to me I can be directed into the proper way to approach health care by the Church when She speaks for Christ, if indeed I believe she does.

The Church has spoken on the universal healthcare concept and Her teachings are available for all to see. To copy and paste for further argument sake is pointless, and it is intellectually lazy for Catholics not to acquaint themselves with the proposed directives on just how health care can be attained, especially for the most vulnerable.

I also believe a Catholic does a great injustice to themselves by not being acquainted with Her teachings on social justice. It lends them to being ill informed and politically influenced, therefore inclined.

The Church has spoken on how best to accomplish health care for all based on the inherent rights of individuals, but not everyone is open to it.
 
JonNC said:
ACA is morally wrong
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I think you’re not a Catholic? For us, our bishops say otherwise. And papal encyclicals have, for a long time, endorsed what they call “social insurance.”
 
So many people say that they want a government based on Christian values. Well then, shouldn’t the government be doing Christian things (as taught by Christ)?
 
Well now that is a really great point. The funny thing is that universal healthcare doesn’t have to be necessarily “government” run. It should be subject to regulations to protect consumers as is any business, but we don’t have to reinvent the wheel. Other countries have “Ministers of Health” and compulsory affordable insurance, and still others have a “shared” type. I would urge persons to look at other countries (Israel’s universal health care is fabulous) and as an R.N. I’ve looked at some of them.

But as a Catholic, yes. We need to support universal coverage, it is encouraged by the Church to do so and is proclaimed a right due to the inherent dignity of the person in the Image and Likeness of God. It’s all there.

Good point though, thumbs up!~
 
JonNC said:
If the bishops consider the HHS Mandate moral, okay.
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You’re doing it again, aren’t you? Just as those who favor some kind of national health insurance don’t support “government dictated health care,” the bishops have not spoken on a particular aspect of the ACA, nor did I say they have.

It’s difficult to discuss this issue with you if you’re going to restate what is said in ways that twist one’s position out of all recognition.
 
As a Christian, you should be doing it. And so should your government, aka Ceasar, which you should be supporting.
 
sallybutler said:
As a Christian, you should be doing it. And so should your government, aka Ceasar, which you should be supporting.
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Yes, you and I should because we are baptized into His Church.
Where does Christ say we should force others to?
Where does Christ say we should have Caesar do the work of the Church?
 
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Then you are not one of the ones who think that we should have a Christian in the White House, nor should the laws of the country be written to uphold Christian values (aka abortion). In that case, I apologize to you. However, there are many who feel that way. I’m just suggesting that those who do should also insure that we the people have our representatives practice Christianity via the laws of the country.
 
Inisfallen said:
For us, our bishops say otherwise. And papal encyclicals have, for a long time, endorsed what they call “social insurance.”
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“Our bishops” have not endorsed Obamacare as such. Some few fishops did. Some jumped ship when it became clear it would pay for abortifacients. More jumped ship when Obama tried to force the Little Sisters to provide coverage for abortifacients for their employees and themselves.

Sometimes bishops get tricked too.
 
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