Judgmental Catholics

[AlanFromWichita]

Gilbert Keith:

Or are we supposed to judge the actions of others to be evil and oppose them in the most Christian way possible and not resort to stoning them to death, which seems to be the context in which Jesus opposed judgment?

Hey, that works for me with one caveat. Not only must we not stone them to death, but we must not even have the desire to do so. We can oppose them without condemning them in our hearts, just like I can oppose my toddler’s running into the street with preventive action, while still not being angry at him.

To me, it all gets back to our thinking we are better than another person. I consider myself no better a person than the “BTK” killer here in Wichita, but that wouldn’t stop me from shooting him in self-defense or in defense of other innocents if I had gotten the chance. It is sufficient that I fear his actions to the point I take action to stop him one way or the other, but unacceptable to do it out of hate or contempt.

Does that work for you?

[edit]One reason I’m “giving in” here is that now I can see you are clearly separating out heartfelt condemnation with the duty we have to keep order in our society – if I understand you right.

Alan

 

[vern_humphrey]

Gilbert Keith:

ALAN

I repeat the question that started this thread:

It is said that the reason evil triumphs is that good men and women do or say nothing. And finally it is too late when outrage is no longer even possible.

We live in a sick world. It is getting sicker. Are we supposed to be passive and shut up?

Or are we supposed to judge the actions of others to be evil and oppose them in the most Christian way possible and not resort to stoning them to death, which seems to be the context in which Jesus opposed judgment?

We are supposed to work for good, not strut like a Pharasee while condemning others.

I see again and again on these forums people whose goal is not to correct an evil, but to wallow in condemnation of someone else. I also notice that people who are condemnatory rarely have any practical course of action when it comes to correcting evil.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

*We are supposed to work for good, not strut like a Pharasee while condemning others.
*
Well, look who is full of judgment this morning!

Now you’re cooking.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Alan

*if I understand you right.

*And you do!

 

[vern_humphrey]

We are supposed to work for good, not strut like a Pharasee while condemning others.

Well, look who is full of judgment this morning!

Now you’re cooking.

Mirrors are spiteful things.

 

[felra]

vern humphrey:

We are supposed to work for good, not strut like a Pharasee while condemning others.

I see again and again on these forums people whose goal is not to correct an evil, but to wallow in condemnation of someone else. I also notice that people who are condemnatory rarely have any practical course of action when it comes to correcting evil.

Or, as more the case in my observation, people on these forums are offfended by someone who would dare offend them by presenting the truth of the Church’s teaching in matters of faith and morals. This accounts for a lot of the reactionary finger pointing and false labelling when one does not like it when their heldfast misconceptions are challenged by an authoritative source. :yup:

 

[vern_humphrey]

felra:

Or, as more the case in my observation, people on these forums are offfended by someone who would dare offend them by presenting the truth of the Church’s teaching in matters of faith and morals. This accounts for a lot of the reactionary finger pointing and false labelling when one does not like when their heldfast beliefs are challenged by an authoritative source. :yup:

I don’t know anyone who’s offended by Church teaching. I have seen many cases of holier-than-thou behavior.

 

[felra]

Or, as more the case in my observation, people on these forums are offfended by someone who would dare offend them by presenting the truth of the Church’s teaching in matters of faith and morals. This accounts for a lot of the reactionary finger pointing and false labelling when one does not like it when their heldfast misconceptions are challenged by an authoritative source.

vern humphrey:

I don’t know anyone who’s offended by Church teaching. I have seen many cases of holier-than-thou behavior.

My point in example.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Please discuss, contrast and compare: “Go, and sin no more,”

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Please discuss, contrast and compare: “Go, and sin no more,”

But it’s so much more fun to strut around feeling superior to that “sinner” over there as we piously go to church, stand there and pray to ourselves, “God, I thank you that I’m not like other men…”

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

Query:

When the pope or a bishop excommunicates somebody, has he sinned because he passed judgment and condemned?

“Let him be anathema!”

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Gilbert Keith:

Query:

When the pope or a bishop excommunicates somebody, has he sinned because he passed judgment and condemned?

“Let him be anathema!”

No. That’s would be part of the Power of the Keys and Binding and Loosing…in other words, it’s their JOB to do that. Also, they’re not saying a particular person is anathema per se, they are saing "If anyone (set condition here), let him be anathema. In other words, it’s a warning…don’t do this or that or you’ll be in BIG trouble.

Excommunication is a form of Church discipline and Christ instructed the Church to do it, so that’s not a sin, either.

 

[fix]

LCMS_No_More:

But it’s so much more fun to strut around feeling superior to that “sinner” over there as we piously go to church, stand there and pray to ourselves, “God, I thank you that I’m not like other men…”

Please see post #63.

 

[felra]

Al Masetti:

Please discuss, contrast and compare: “Go, and sin no more,”

…with “admonish” the sinner:

Acts 20: 31 “Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one with tears.”

1 Cor. 4: 14 “I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to** admonish** you as my beloved children.”

Col 3: 16 “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teach and admonish one another in all wisdom, and sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs with thankfulness in your hearts to God.”

1 Thes. 5: 12, 14 “But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonishyou, …and we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with them all.”

Titus 3: 10 “As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him,”

and …

Galatians 4: 16 “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?”

 

[fix]

felra:

…
Galatians 4: 16 “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?”

In many cases these days, yes. No matter how the correction is phrased, or the demeanor, or the preface some will always charge “judging” as if that is the only “sin” many will accept as legitimate in this age.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Gilbert Keith:

Query:

When the pope or a bishop excommunicates somebody, has he sinned because he passed judgment and condemned?

“Let him be anathema!”

I may be wrong, but I don’t think there are any bishops contributing to this thread. The Pope and bishops – like judges and other secular magistrates - have duties.

We, on the other hand, have no duty to find, accuse, try and punish our fellow man.

When Jesus said “Judge not, lest you be judged” he wasn’t talking to a properly-appointed judge. He was talking to a lynch mob that had assembled to stone a woman to death.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

ad·mon·ish

1. To reprove gently but earnestly.
2. To counsel (another) against something to be avoided; caution.
3. To remind of something forgotten or disregarded, as an obligation or a responsibility.

I see very little gentleness in many of the admonishing going on by certain people around here. More like, “You stupid idiot sinner! REPENT, you fool!”

 

[felra]

LCMS_No_More:

ad·mon·ish

1. To reprove gently but earnestly.
2. To counsel (another) against something to be avoided; caution.
3. To remind of something forgotten or disregarded, as an obligation or a responsibility.

I see very little gentleness in many of the admonishing going on by certain people around here. More like, “You stupid idiot sinner! REPENT, you fool!”

There seems to be a significant chasm between your experience and those of others on these forums (hence, the pointed exchanges). I for one have not read too many “You stupid idiot sinner! REPENT, you fool!” flavored, tenored threads (these few posters tend to be short lived flame throwers).

I think that it would be useful if you could evidence your claim that “many” lack the “gentleness” accorded with “admonishing”, as a way to provide a reality check for myself and others who want to appreciate your concerns (and your subjective scale for determining judgmentalism). Can you please produce quotes (minus source) of some of these outrageous and rude and uncharitable comments by these “certain” posters?

 

[vern_humphrey]

felra:

There seems to be a significant chasm between your experience and those of others on these forums (hence, the pointed exchanges). I for one have not read too many “You stupid idiot sinner! REPENT, you fool!” flavored, tenored threads (these few posters tend to be short lived flame throwers).

I think that it would be useful if you could evidence your claim that “many” lack the “gentleness” accorded with “admonishing”, as a way to provide a reality check for myself and others who want to appreciate your concerns (and your subjective scale for determining judgmentalism). Can you please produce quotes (minus source) of some of these outrageous and rude and uncharitable comments by these “certain” posters?

You recall the now-closed thread started by the lady who had a bad first three months of her marriage?

I think it’s safe to say a LOT of people judged her husband – based on two posts on the internet. Some of them were adamant that they were RIGHT to condemn him – no defense he could make would be adequate.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

VERN

When Jesus said “Judge not, lest you be judged” he wasn’t talking to a properly-appointed judge. He was talking to a lynch mob that had assembled to stone a woman to death.

No doubt. And since he could see into their hearts, he may have known that among the men were adulterers that should be throwing stones at each other if they were sincere about stoning adulterers.

But when you shift the ground of the discussion to people who are downright evil, people like Hitler for example, do you not judge them for what they transparently are without you being the hypocite? When Hitler was rounding up Jews, were we devout Catholics supposed to just pray and be humble and wait for our bishops to stop twiddling their thumbs and start issuing anathemas? Or were we supposed to fight Hitler and his ilk with every weapon at our command … including the judgment of him as a maniac and master of genocide?

And when we had finished with our own personal anathemas, if we were bold enough to issue them, should we have felt guilty because we too are maniacs and masters of genocide?

This is not to judge Hitler worthy of hell, because only God makes that kind of judgment. But don’t we as mere mortals have to register condemnation of evildoers now and then … as opposed to the situation of the woman caught in adultery whose accusers may have been more guilty than she of the same or comparable sin of lusting in the heart?