Julian of Norwich

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Must be time to return to my standard signature.

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Wonderful! You brought a smile to my face. It is good to find another lover of Julian.

I have seen but not read a recent biography of Lady Julian titled:

Julian’s Gospel: Illuminating the Life and Revelations of Julian of Norwich
by Veronica Mary Rolf

amazon.com/Julians-Gospel-Illuminating-Revelations-Norwich/dp/1626980942/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1437524701&sr=1-9&keywords=julian+of+norwich

It won the 2014 Catholic Association Book Award and is supposedly one of the best biographies of her. Hefty though. I’m eager to read it.
 
+JMJ+
Which is exactly why she should NOT be a saint. Universal Salvation is a heresy.
Woah there with the heresy hammer! You probably read first from the source before you go there.

This is not the first time I have heard of her, but this is the first time I got curious enough to read more on her. I checked up on her in the trusty old online Catholic Encyclopedia and it seems to have nothing but good words for her: newadvent.org/cathen/08557a.htm

I’m gonna have a look at her writings (ccel.org/ccel/julian/revelations) and see for myself.

Thanks OP!
 
It looks wonderful. You know the author is a monk from the Order of Julian of Norwich. They are in Wisconsin. I have never been, but I would love to go visit them.

orderofjulian.org
Oh my! Wisconsin is my home state,Imagine that.having an episcopalian monastery dedicated to Julian of Norwich right in my backyard.
 
Yeah and the retreat master we had, spoke on then Pope Benedict XVI’s Spe Salvi and Julian of Norwich.

It came across as universal salvation and a fellow retreatent claimed that "universal salvation,’’ was condemned as heresy by the Church.

I’ve yet to find that condemnation to date.

Jim
Fr Barron does not dismiss universalism out of hand.
 
Fr Barron does not dismiss universalism out of hand.
I think it comes down to that the Church can not say who is saved and who is not.

She knows that sin is the pathway to hell, but also knows that God’s mercy is beyond our understanding.

Remember, God became man in Jesus Christ, even while we were sinners. So, this act of mercy is beyond comprehension for most humans.

Jim
 
It’s been a little while since we have posted about Julian of Norwich, but I thought I would share a blog post I got today from the author of the biography called ā€˜Julian’s Gospel’ by Veronica Mary Rolf. She write on the famous words, ā€˜All shall be well…’

Lovely.

juliansvoice.com/veronicas-blog
 
I’ve yet to find that condemnation to date.
Try the Gospels: Lk 13:22-30, Mt 7:21-3, Lk 16:19-31, etc.

Nothing that contradicts the Gospels, especially private revelations, may be regarded orthodox.

Pax Christi
 
Try the Gospels: Lk 13:22-30, Mt 7:21-3, Lk 16:19-31, etc.

Nothing that contradicts the Gospels, especially private revelations, may be regarded orthodox.

Pax Christi
And nothing that Julian of Norwich wrote is contrary to orthodoxy, hence the words of commendation regarding her from Pope Benedict and others.

As Fr. John-Julian, OJN, comments in the above mentioned Complete Julian of Norwich:

ā€œMany commentators on Julian (who supposedly respect her) apparently do not take her seriously when they foolishly and pointlessly try to guess what the ā€œGreat Deedā€ is that Julian alludes to, when she says that God shall do a ā€œSecret Deedā€ and all will ultimately be well. We are cautioned by Julian several times not to try to find out, but these commentators theorize that it may be ā€œuniversal salvationā€ or a ā€œnew creation.ā€ I suspect that Julian’s answer to those queries would simply be the ā€œGreat Deedā€ is God’s business and not ours, and that is more than enough for a person of faith to know. For Julian, the knowledge that what God wills will finally come about is comfort enough.ā€

Personally, I do hope that Julian’s message refers to some way where all will be saved, but to say assuredly so, which is the error of universal salvation, would be a mistake, both for myself, and to ascribe to Julian. It is the idea of certainty that all will be saved that is the problem here, not the hope that it somehow can and will happen, for nothing is impossible with God. Of course, I’m just poorly parroting the ideas of Hans Urs von Balthasar and Bishop-elect Robert Barron here, but it is a hope which I hold dear.
 
Personally, I do hope that Julian’s message refers to some way where all will be saved, but to say assuredly so, which is the error of universal salvation, would be a mistake, both for myself, and to ascribe to Julian. It is the idea of certainty that all will be saved that is the problem here, not the hope that it somehow can and will happen, for nothing is impossible with God. Of course, I’m just poorly parroting the ideas of Hans Urs von Balthasar and Bishop-elect Robert Barron here, but it is a hope which I hold dear.
Julian does imply the mistake of universal salvation, not merely hope, as do Balthasar and Barron oftentimes.

It is a heresy and a very modern one, convenient to a post-Christian West. Lest we forget, now as in the past, most heresies were promoted by bishops and priests and religious.

Pax Christi
 
Well, the Church does not have an official condemnation of Universal Salvation, from what I can see.

However, neither does the Church say hell does not exist and no one goes there. Instead, the Church says that its OK to have reasonable ā€œhope,ā€ that all souls are saved.

Fr Barron, whom I’ve just come to learn about, who was just elevated to Axillary Archbishop of LA, by Pope Francis, has a good talk in YouTube where he explains it really well.

Fr. Robert Barron on Whether Hell is Crowded or Empty

Go here

Jim
 
Well, the Church does not have an official condemnation of Universal Salvation, from what I can see.
No, because she states that those who die unrepentant of mortal sin do go to hell. Therefore, universal salvation contradicts Holy Scriptures, Holy Tradition and the Magisterium.
However, neither does the Church say hell does not exist and no one goes there. Instead, the Church says that its OK to have reasonable ā€œhope,ā€ that all souls are saved.
She does not teach that. Rather, she teaches that the Four Last Things.
Fr Barron, whom I’ve just come to learn about, who was just elevated to Axillary Archbishop of LA, by Pope Francis, has a good talk in YouTube where he explains it really well.
I am very familiar with Fr. Barron and consider this point a sore spot in his otherwise brilliant thought. But I point Ralph Martin to do the critique, whom Fr. Barron attacked viciously and uncharitably: renewalministries.net/wordpress/?p=348

Pax Christi
 
No, because she states that those who die unrepentant of mortal sin do go to hell. Therefore, universal salvation contradicts Holy Scriptures, Holy Tradition and the Magisterium.

She does not teach that. Rather, she teaches that the Four Last Things.

I am very familiar with Fr. Barron and consider this point a sore spot in his otherwise brilliant thought. But I point Ralph Martin to do the critique, whom Fr. Barron attacked viciously and uncharitably: renewalministries.net/wordpress/?p=348

Pax Christi
Ralph Martin or Fr Barron ?

I’ll go with Fr Barron as does Pope Francis.

Jim
 
Yeah and the retreat master we had, spoke on then Pope Benedict XVI’s Spe Salvi and Julian of Norwich.

It came across as universal salvation and a fellow retreatent claimed that "universal salvation,’’ was condemned as heresy by the Church.

I’ve yet to find that condemnation to date.

Jim
I guess it depends what is meant by universal salvation. If it means everybody has the opportunity to be saved that’s fine but if it means everyone at the end of time (including those in Hell) will be saved then that is heresy (i.e. Universalism is heresy).

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

UNIVERSALISM, DOCTRINAL. The theory that Hell is essentially a kind of purgatory in which sins are expiated, so that eventually everyone will be saved. Also called apokatastasis, it was condemned by the church in A.D. 543, against the Origenists, who claimed that ā€œthe punishment of devils and wicked men is temporary and will eventually cease, that is to say, that devils or the ungodly will be completely restored to their original stateā€ (Denzinger 411).
 
…maybe some day we will find out that no one died in the state of mortal sin…
 
Julian does imply the mistake of universal salvation, not merely hope, as do Balthasar and Barron oftentimes.

Pax Christi
That is simply not true, for declaring universal salvation implies a certitude, and a careful reading of Julian herself shows that she does not hold any such belief. Here from chapter 32 of her Revelations, she struggles to reconcile what the Church teaches about hell - which she believes - with what she has been told concerning the ā€œGreat Deedā€ that will make all things well:

"At this insight I marveled greatly, and looked at our Faith, marveling thus: our Faith is based in God’s word, and it is part of our Faith that we believe that God’s word shall be preserved in all things, and one point of our Faith is that many creatures shall be damned (as were the angels who fell out of heaven because of pride - who are now demons), and many on earth who die outside of the Faith of Holy Church (that is to say, those who are heathen men and also men who have received Christianity but live unchristian lives and so die without love) all these shall be damned to hell without end, as Holy Church teaches me to believe.

Given all this, it seemed to me that it was impossible that all manner of thing would be well as our Lord showed at this time; and in regard to this, I had no other answer in any showing of our Lord God except this: 'What is impossible for thee is not impossible for me. I shall preserve my word in all things, and I shall make everything well.’

Thus I was taught by the grace of God that I should steadfastly keep myself in the Faith as I had interpreted it before, and also that I should firmly believe that everything shall be well as our Lord showed at the same time; because this Great Deed that our Lord shall do, in which deed he shall preserve His word in everything and He shall make well all that is not well. But what the deed shall be, and how it shall be done, there is no creature beneath Christ that either knows it or shall know it until it is done."

Do you see a clear confirmation of universal salvation in her words? I don’t. Do you think Joseph Ratzinger could have overlooked such a glaring error which you accuse her of, when he glowingly recommended her? I don’t… not from Pope Benedict, who is so very meticulous in his writings and observations.

I leave you with some thoughts from the Cistercian scholar William Menninger, whose ideas may or may not hold water with you, but I like his notion that what we have here is a paradox:

"God has known this deed, whatever it is, from the beginning. From all eternity, God had intended to make all things well. There may even be an allusion here to chapter 1 of Genesis where God saw that all He made was good. Julian then considers one article of faith that, like all articles of faith, is based on God’s word, namely, that hell is real. There are condemned souls as well as condemned angels in hell. This is the clear teaching of the Holy Church. How then, is it possible for all things to be well? As our Lord emphasizes, so Julian insists that she is called to maintain firmly what the Church teaches and also to believe as the Lord has told her, that all things will be well. She accepts the contradiction by simply stating that, for the Lord, nothing is impossible. Systematic logic is not where Julian is at this moment! It is a moment of faith: the substance of things that appear not.

Once again Julian states, at the end of the chapter, her certain belief that what the Church teaches is true and what God says is the same truth - even though, for us, this is impossible to reconcile… Julian avoids saying that hell will be eliminated because that seems contrary to Church teaching. She is saying that the existence of hell prevents all manner of things from being well. Her conclusion? Be at peace, have faith in God, and you will see for yourself."

And when it comes to the **hope *that all will be saved, I will stick with the ideas of von Balthasar, who was held in such esteem by both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and also Bishop-elect Barron. You are free, of course to disagree. I’m curious though, how can you love all as our Lord commanded: our neighbors, our enemies, everyone, and not at least hope *that all will be saved?
 
And when it comes to the **hope *that all will be saved, I will stick with the ideas of von Balthasar, who was held in such esteem by both Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and also Bishop-elect Barron. You are free, of course to disagree. I’m curious though, how can you love all as our Lord commanded: our neighbors, our enemies, everyone, and not at least hope *that all will be saved?
Because this is an affront to God and to man. God will not use His mercy to force those who choose to depart from Him to remain with Him for eternity. Just like satan chose hell, and he is in hell, men are as free to choose hell and God’s mercy cannot abrogate the liberty that we were endowed with by God Himself.

Pax Christi
 
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