Julian of Norwich

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simple_soul said:
…maybe some day we will find out that no one died in the state of mortal sin…
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You’re approaching this the wrong way, a legalistic way. Sin is a result from the separation of the human heart from God. Some men choose this separation and this choice cannot be abridged by mercy without repentance. Just like satan chose hell and God mercifully granted it to him, so can men choose hell and all that God’s mercy will effect is hell, for He will not force His presence on anyone, for God desires our love, not a pet.

Pax Christi
 
Augustine said:
You’re approaching this the wrong way, a legalistic way. Sin is a result from the separation of the human heart from God. Some men choose this separation and this choice cannot be abridged by mercy without repentance. Just like satan chose hell and God mercifully granted it to him, so can men choose hell and all that God’s mercy will effect is hell, for He will not force His presence on anyone, for God desires our love, not a pet.

Pax Christi
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What is legalistic about what I said?

The way I understand what you just explained here sounds/reads as a more leagalistic way of seeing it.

In thinking about it some more I believe we might actually be saying the same thing…hhhmm…I’ll have to ponder this some more…
 
Augustine said:
Because this is an affront to God and to man. God will not use His mercy to force those who choose to depart from Him to remain with Him for eternity. Just like satan chose hell, and he is in hell, men are as free to choose hell and God’s mercy cannot abrogate the liberty that we were endowed with by God Himself.

Pax Christi
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It is not an affront to God or man if God makes it so. You use the word “force”, but that’s not how I see it. God can certainly use His mercy to remove the scales from our eyes, the scales that make sin seem like the greater good. He can open our eyes and fix our understanding so that the right choice becomes so obvious as to seem irresistible, just as sin seems irresistible to so many of us now. If we truly understood what God is offering us, and God can give us this understanding where it is lacking now, there would be no need for force, and we would all freely choose the good.
 
houston1 said:
Thanks for sharing and for all that your contribute to the CAF. I have been following you for a while and am thankful that you share your knowledge with us all.

houston1
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Thank you, I’m happy to share what was given to me.

Jim
 
Keep in mind that Fr Barron never teaches universal salvation, this has been an accusation against him which turns out to be false.

If you listened to what he says in the video I linked, he teaches what Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI taught. God does not send souls to hell, they go their on their own.

We can have “reasonable hope,” that all souls are saved. This does not mean we know all souls are saved, but we can merely hope that it’s so.

And why not have this hope ?

Isn’t it better to hope all souls are saved than to celebrate that many go to hell as some tend to do ?

God’s mercy is beyond our understanding, and anyone who follows the devotion of Divine Mercy, will understand this.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
We can have “reasonable hope,” that all souls are saved. This does not mean we know all souls are saved, but we can merely hope that it’s so.

And why not have this hope ?
…

God’s mercy is beyond our understanding, and anyone who follows the devotion of Divine Mercy, will understand this.
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It is not a reasonable hope. Our Lord didn’t think it was reasonable, but rather repeatedly stated that many would go to hell, even from among those who called Him Lord.

And it is not a matter of His mercy, which is unfathomable, but of human freedom to choose hell.

Pax Christi
 
christofirst said:
It is not an affront to God or man if God makes it so. You use the word “force”, but that’s not how I see it. God can certainly use His mercy to remove the scales from our eyes, the scales that make sin seem like the greater good. He can open our eyes and fix our understanding so that the right choice becomes so obvious as to seem irresistible, just as sin seems irresistible to so many of us now. If we truly understood what God is offering us, and God can give us this understanding where it is lacking now, there would be no need for force, and we would all freely choose the good.
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If God reveals Himself to us in an irresistible manner, then we are not free to choose Him. Depriving man of freedom is an affront to God’s creation, therefore an affront to God Himself.

Pax Christi
 
simple_soul said:
What is legalistic about what I said?
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By legalistic I mean the thought that hell is punishment for bad deeds. Rather, it is just and merciful that God grants those who choose other than Him to go to hell. In this sense, hell, the absence of God, is what such poor souls desire. As a matter of fact, were God to bring those who want nothing to do with Him to heaven, it would actually be hell to them. And then, God would have given them hell, which is not what He wants. But He allows those who so desire to go to hell, much to His sadness.

Pax Christi
 
Augustine said:
It is not a reasonable hope. Our Lord didn’t think it was reasonable, but rather repeatedly stated that many would go to hell, even from among those who called Him Lord.

And it is not a matter of His mercy, which is unfathomable, but of human freedom to choose hell.

Pax Christi
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So you reject what the Church teaches.
CCC
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.” “The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”
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Jim
 
Augustine said:
If God reveals Himself to us in an irresistible manner, then we are not free to choose Him. Depriving man of freedom is an affront to God’s creation, therefore an affront to God Himself.

Pax Christi
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The fallen angles had the full vision of God, but rejected him.

God’s revelation to us does not remove free will. We can still chose to reject him.

Christ revealed himself to Judas, but Judas betrayed him.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
The fallen angles had the full vision of God, but rejected him.

God’s revelation to us does not remove free will. We can still chose to reject him.

Christ revealed himself to Judas, but Judas betrayed him.
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So, by your own words, even if God removes the scales of sin from our eyes, we’d still be able to choose other than Him. That’s hell.

Pax Christi
 
JimR-OCDS said:
So you reject what the Church teaches.
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Of course not. The Church teaches that one can reject any of the theological virtues. But this hope applies only to the subject who received this virtue and hopes about his own salvation, not about a collective universal salvation, an unreasonable distortion of this teaching.

On the contrary, such a hope of universal salvation is akin to some sort of universal calvinist predestination.

All heresies started with theological speculation uprooted from Tradition.

Pax Christi
 
Augustine said:
So, by your own words, even if God removes the scales of sin from our eyes, we’d still be able to choose other than Him. That’s hell.

Pax Christi
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Free will isn’t hell.

Hell is separation from God.

Jim
 
Augustine said:
Of course not. The Church teaches that one can reject any of the theological virtues. But this hope applies only to the subject who received this virtue and hopes about his own salvation, not about a collective universal salvation, an unreasonable distortion of this teaching.

On the contrary, such a hope of universal salvation is akin to some sort of universal calvinist predestination.

All heresies started with theological speculation uprooted from Tradition.

Pax Christi
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So you’re putting your own spin to what the Church teaches.

Read it again;
CCC
1817 Hope is the theological virtue by which we desire the kingdom of heaven and eternal life as our happiness, placing our trust in Christ’s promises and relying not on our own strength, but on the help of the grace of the Holy Spirit. “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.” “The Holy Spirit . . . he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.”
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Pope Benedict XVI wrote that salvation was never individualistic, but communal.

In other words, Christ didn’t come to save individuals, but many.

He also formed the Church which is the body of Christ, in the people who make it.

We as a Church have the theological virtues of Faith, Hope and Love.

Jim
 
Augustine said:
Of course not. The Church teaches that one can reject any of the theological virtues. But this hope applies only to the subject who received this virtue and hopes about his own salvation, not about a collective universal salvation, an unreasonable distortion of this teaching.
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Correct.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
We can have “reasonable hope,” that all souls are saved. This does not mean we know all souls are saved, but we can merely hope that it’s so.

And why not have this hope ?

Isn’t it better to hope all souls are saved than to celebrate that many go to hell as some tend to do ?

God’s mercy is beyond our understanding, and anyone who follows the devotion of Divine Mercy, will understand this.

Jim
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It’s nice that you should start this discussion as I was reflecting on this point just this week. I considered God’s mercy and pondered on this for a while. I wondered if there would be a way out for the souls in hell someday somehow in eternity. But, I don’t know.

I do believe there are souls in hell and many will continue to go to hell, like Saint Anthony Mary Claret would say - some are marching straight to hell. Oh yeah! There is a hell and there are souls in hell. I believe in the Fatima apparition and one of the things about it is that the children were shown hell and they saw souls in despair and suffering.

The question I posed myself is will the souls in hell remain there for all eternity? Would God someday provide them a way out? I don’t know. But, for now, I understand they are there for good and hell is not a good place to be and the souls who end up there are there for good.

Avoid hell at all cost. 🙂
 
Abba said:
It’s nice that you should start this discussion as I was reflecting on this point just this week. I considered God’s mercy and pondered on this for a while. I wondered if there would be a way out for the souls in hell someday somehow in eternity. But, I don’t know.

I do believe there are souls in hell and many will continue to go to hell, like Saint Anthony Mary Claret would say - some are marching straight to hell. Oh yeah. There is a hell and the are souls in hell. I believe in the Fatima apparition and one of the things about it is that the children were shown hell and they saw souls in despair and suffering.

The question I posed myself is will the souls in hell remain there for all eternity? Would God someday provide them a way out? I don’t know. But, for now, I understand they are there for good and hell is not a good place to be and the souls who end up there are there for good.

Avoid hell at all cost. 🙂
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Fr Barron never teaches that hell does not exist. Neither does Julian of Norwich.

However, they both teach in having trust and hope in God, that all things will be made well.

Whatever that means, doesn’t concern me, other than His will be done.

If the souls in hell are released at the end of time, it is God’s will and praise God if this happens.

When you die, if you saw Hitler in heaven, would it upset you ?

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Keep in mind that Fr Barron never teaches universal salvation, this has been an accusation against him which turns out to be false.

If you listened to what he says in the video I linked, he teaches what Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI taught. God does not send souls to hell, they go their on their own.

We can have “reasonable hope,” that all souls are saved. This does not mean we know all souls are saved, but we can merely hope that it’s so.

And why not have this hope ?

Isn’t it better to hope all souls are saved than to celebrate that many go to hell as some tend to do ?

God’s mercy is beyond our understanding, and anyone who follows the devotion of Divine Mercy, will understand this.

Jim
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Yes, I agree. We should hope for salvation of all. We have hope that all will be reconciled to God. There’s nothing wrong or naïve about hope.
 
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