Julian of Norwich

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There is so much good to ponder in Lady Julian! All shall indeed be well, and even if all is not yet well in this thread (or world, for that matter), I can’t resist bringing up another of her quotes:

"God is the goodness that cannot be angry, for He is nothing but goodness.
Our soul is one-ed to Him, who is unchangeable goodness, and between God and our soul is neither anger nor forgiveness, as He sees it. For our soul is so completely one-ed to God by His own goodness, that there can be absolutely nothing at all separating God and soul."
The Revelations of Julian of Norwich, Chapter 46

And some thoughts on that quote from Fr. William Meninger, O.C.S.O.:

“Julian takes up again the conundrum of the two opposing revelations: God imputes to us no blame, but the Church says we are sinners and deserving of suffering and wrath. Despite all this, Julian insists that in her revelations she saw that God was never angry and never will be, because he is good; He is truth, love, and peace, and his power, wisdom, and charity will never allow him to be angry. It is against God’s nature to be angry; it is contrary to his goodness. Between God and the soul there is neither wrath nor forgiveness. Our souls are so wholly united to God because of his goodness and love that nothing can interpose between God and our souls. God has given Julian this understanding in every revelation. He wishes us to know how this is so insofar as it is appropriate for us. At the same time, God tells Julian that there are many hidden mysteries that will only be known at the time when God makes us worthy of them. Julian is satisfied with this and waits upon the Lord to manifest his will. Meanwhile, she submits herself to holy mother Church, as a simple child should.”
 
I’ve finally got around to reading Revelations of Divine Love 🙂 (well I’m only a couple of pages in) But I find it most refreshing to read a females theological work.
 
Welcome to Catholic Calvinism, when one is doubly predestined to Heaven. :whacky:
 
Welcome to Catholic Calvinism, when all are doubly predestined to Heaven. :whacky:
 
Augustine said:
Welcome to Catholic Calvinism, when all are doubly predestined to Heaven. :whacky:
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If only I could change my screen name to Origen, then the irony of having this discussion with Augustine would be perfect. 🙂

Fr. John-Julian, OJN, addresses the issue of predestination and salvation in the writings of Lady Julian rather well, in my opinion. Some of his thoughts I have already quoted here, and the whole section would be too long, but it is summed up rather nicely with:

"Therefore, it can be said that Julian held the very orthodox doctrine of “single predestination”: that all souls are predestined for heaven, but they are free to reject that predestination."

And my personal view is still that while we are indeed free to reject God and heaven, God can certainly make the right choice so obvious for us, whether now, later in our lives, or at the moment of death, that no one would ever make the wrong choice. But these are just my thoughts and my hope.
 
Julian’s message about there being for us no anger or blame in God is so beautiful and enlightening, I can’t stop rejoicing in it!

**“God is the goodness that cannot be angry, for He is nothing but goodness” #46

“And the careful awareness to this intention of His saves us from grumbling and despair when we experience our own pains, as long as we see truly that our sin deserves it, yet His Love excuses us, and of His great graciousness He does away with all our blame, and He looks upon us with mercy and pity as children, innocent and not loathsome.” #28

“Here I understood that the lord looks upon his servant with pity and not with blame, for this passing life does not require that we live wholly without guilt and sin.” #82

"And here I wondered and marveled with all the diligence of my soul, meaning thus: "Good Lord, I see Thee who art very truth and I know truly that we sin grievously all day and are much blameworthy; and I can neither relinquish the knowledge of this truth, nor can I see Thee showing to us any manner of blame. How can this be?

Then was this a miracle to me: that I saw our Lord God showing us no more blame as if we were as pure and holy as angels are in heaven." #50**

All around me I see people talking about the wrath of God, wondering when He will smite this or that person, group or nation in His great anger. And here God tells us through Julian that there is no anger in Him, nor does He blame us for our many transgressions. This is so heartening for me to consider, I think I can understand in my own way what Thomas Merton meant when he said,

“Julian is, without doubt, one of the most wonderful of all Christian voices. She gets greater and greater in my eyes as I grow older, and whereas in the old days I used to be crazy about St. John of the Cross, I would not exchange him now for Julian if you gave me the world and the Indies and all the Spanish mystics rolled up into one bundle. I think Julian of Norwich is, with Newman, the greatest English theologian.”
 
christofirst said:
Julian’s message about there being for us no anger or blame in God is so beautiful and enlightening, I can’t stop rejoicing in it!

**“God is the goodness that cannot be angry, for He is nothing but goodness” #46

“And the careful awareness to this intention of His saves us from grumbling and despair when we experience our own pains, as long as we see truly that our sin deserves it, yet His Love excuses us, and of His great graciousness He does away with all our blame, and He looks upon us with mercy and pity as children, innocent and not loathsome.” #28

“Here I understood that the lord looks upon his servant with pity and not with blame, for this passing life does not require that we live wholly without guilt and sin.” #82

"And here I wondered and marveled with all the diligence of my soul, meaning thus: "Good Lord, I see Thee who art very truth and I know truly that we sin grievously all day and are much blameworthy; and I can neither relinquish the knowledge of this truth, nor can I see Thee showing to us any manner of blame. How can this be?

Then was this a miracle to me: that I saw our Lord God showing us no more blame as if we were as pure and holy as angels are in heaven." #50**

All around me I see people talking about the wrath of God, wondering when He will smite this or that person, group or nation in His great anger. And here God tells us through Julian that there is no anger in Him, nor does He blame us for our many transgressions. This is so heartening for me to consider, I think I can understand in my own way what Thomas Merton meant when he said,

“Julian is, without doubt, one of the most wonderful of all Christian voices. She gets greater and greater in my eyes as I grow older, and whereas in the old days I used to be crazy about St. John of the Cross, I would not exchange him now for Julian if you gave me the world and the Indies and all the Spanish mystics rolled up into one bundle. I think Julian of Norwich is, with Newman, the greatest English theologian.”
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Beautiful posts ! 👍

St Francis of Assisi knew God the same way Julian.

Despite the Church being corrupt as it was in his time, he didn’t point fingers and condemn people for not following doctrine.

Instead, he lived the Gospel and did it with joy.

Jesus is here in the now, dwelling within our very beings.

We merely have to go to Him to know His love and mercy.

Jim
 
And I’ll just leave this:

It is incorrect and misleading to connect the heresies of Universalism, Annihilationism (also known as Extinctionism or Destructionism) in any way shape or form with pious Catholics such as; Julian of Norwich and Saint Padre Pio.

People need to be careful not to be subtlety mislead into erroneous understandings. Always use the Ten Commandments and the Sacraments as anchors and the teachings of the Church to evaluate a presentation or notion.

Matthew 10:16
"Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilationism Universalism et al are held by the Seventh Day Adventist and the Jehovah’s Witness and modern erroneous sentimental notions.
The Fathers of the Church on the heresies of Universalism et al…

150 AD Second Clement “If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment” (Second Clement 5:5).

150 AD Second Clement “But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’” (Second Clement , 17:7).

150 AD Justin Martyr: “No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments” (First Apology 12).

150 AD Justin Martyr: “We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire” (First Apology, 21).

150 AD Justin Martyr: “[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons” (First Apology, 52).

Cont…
 
155 AD The Martyrdom of Polycarp “Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3).

160 AD Mathetes “When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world” (Letter to Diognetus 10:7).

177 AD Athenagoras “[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated” (Plea for the Christians 31).

181 AD Theophilus of Antioch “Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God… [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things… For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire” (To Autolycus 1:14).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons “[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire” (Against Heresies 1:10:1).

189 AD Irenaeus of Lyons “The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming … *t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever” (Against Heresies, 4:28:2).

197 AD Tertullian “After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending” (Apology 18:3).

197 AD Tertullian “Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility” (Apology , 44:12-13).

212 AD Hippolytus “Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just if your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them” (Against the Greeks 3).

226 AD Minucius Felix “I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them” (Octavius 34:12-5:3).

Athough not a Catholic website this site provides just about every quote of the Fathers of the Church on on these heresies: bible.ca/H-hell.htm*
 
P.s. I forgot to mention in addition to Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witness and modern sentimental misplaced notions, that of: Unity Theology. That’s the one where they are all becoming Gods and Jesus was just one who achieved this just like they all can. They tend to present their ideology sandwiched in between Catholic and Biblical teachings.
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JimR-OCDS said:
A total hijacking of the thread. 😦

Jim
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I agree.

God revealed to Julian of Norwich the promise of a "great deed’ in the end that would make all things well. Julian immediately wondered how all things could be well if people were in hell. God basically told her not to worry about it. Trust in God, and all shall be well. Since that time, people have speculated on what the “great deed” might be, and so I am not really surprised that the debate continues in this thread. I am puzzled and disappointed that the pro-hell camp, having produced copious evidence for the existence of hell which was never in question here, failed to provide one quote from Lady Julian herself in a thread dedicated to her. It leads me to believe that these posters have never actually read Julian of Norwich, couldn’t care less about her, and are only here to promote hell. If that is their primary interest, why not start another thread about hell, or add their considerable passion and knowledge about hell to one of the many threads devoted to hell already here on CAF?
 
christofirst said:
I agree.

God revealed to Julian of Norwich the promise of a "great deed’ in the end that would make all things well. Julian immediately wondered how all things could be well if people were in hell. God basically told her not to worry about it. Trust in God, and all shall be well. Since that time, people have speculated on what the “great deed” might be, and so I am not really surprised that the debate continues in this thread. I am puzzled and disappointed that the pro-hell camp, having produced copious evidence for the existence of hell which was never in question here, failed to provide one quote from Lady Julian herself in a thread dedicated to her. It leads me to believe that these posters have never actually read Julian of Norwich, couldn’t care less about her, and are only here to promote hell. If that is their primary interest, why not start another thread about hell, or add their considerable passion and knowledge about hell to one of the many threads devoted to hell already here on CAF?
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I’m being lead to believe that the good deed is for us to forgive. To forgive the way Jesus forgives. “Father! Forgive them. For they know not what they do.” Probably starting with forgiving ourselves.
 
simple_soul said:
I’m being lead to believe that the good deed is for us to forgive. To forgive the way Jesus forgives. “Father! Forgive them. For they know not what they do.” Probably starting with forgiving ourselves.
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You make a great point. The words of Our Lord indicate how unaware we really are when we fall into sin. If we truly knew God’s great love for us, how could we ever sin? There would be no contradiction with free will, because our will would naturally be aligned with God’s. “For now we see in a mirror dimly,” as Saint Paul says, “But then we will see face to face.”

And Julian makes the amazing assertion that God does not blame us for our falling - He does not even see us as falling! - and so in light of this it really is we who must learn to forgive ourselves and each other.

"But this was shown: that whether in falling or in rising we are ever protected in one love. In the sight of God we do not fall; in the sight of self, we do not stand - and both of these are true as I see it, but the way our Lord God sees it is the highest truth." Revelations of Julian of Norwich #82.

But always with Julian, it is a paradox. Both/and, instead of either/or. Both the existence of hell and the fact that somehow all shall be well. Both justice and mercy (even though she never uses those exact terms). And this notion of paradox is just unacceptable for some of us.
 
christofirst said:
You make a great point. The words of Our Lord indicate how unaware we really are when we fall into sin. If we truly knew God’s great love for us, how could we ever sin? There would be no contradiction with free will, because our will would naturally be aligned with God’s. “For now we see in a mirror dimly,” as Saint Paul says, “But then we will see face to face.”

And Julian makes the amazing assertion that God does not blame us for our falling - He does not even see us as falling! - and so in light of this it really is we who must learn to forgive ourselves and each other.

"But this was shown: that whether in falling or in rising we are ever protected in one love. In the sight of God we do not fall; in the sight of self, we do not stand - and both of these are true as I see it, but the way our Lord God sees it is the highest truth." Revelations of Julian of Norwich #82.

But always with Julian, it is a paradox. Both/and, instead of either/or. Both the existence of hell and the fact that somehow all shall be well. Both justice and mercy (even though she never uses those exact terms). And this notion of paradox is just unacceptable for some of us.
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I guess my problem may be that I am not sure that I find it to be a paradox but I am beginning to understand why others do. The fact that I am not sure there even is a paradox makes me feel like I am seriously missing something or there is something seriously wrong or broken inside of me. I will have to take another look at everything and ask myself again why I don’t find it to be a paradox. :o
 
simple_soul said:
I guess my problem may be that I am not sure that I find it to be a paradox but I am beginning to understand why others do. The fact that I am not sure there even is a paradox makes me feel like I am seriously missing something or there is something seriously wrong or broken inside of me. I will have to take another look at everything and ask myself again why I don’t find it to be a paradox. :o
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Saint Thomas Aquinas, I think it was, tried to resolve the problem of hell by proposing that we in heaven would be happy to see those in hell, knowing they got their just deserts. In that case, maybe the “great deed” Julian alludes to is that I will lose all compassion for my fellow human beings, good or bad… but I certainly hope not! And hope is the real issue here. If you do not see a paradox where hell is concered, then good for you, and I wouldn’t try to change your outlook to satisfy anyone else’s point of view. However, I do see a paradox, and it is made abundantly clear to me whenever the hell promoters here remind us about how full hell is going to be.

Pope St. John Paul II gave an observation that helps me in Crossing the Threshold of Hope (with my comments in parentheses):

"The problem of hell has always disturbed great thinkers in the Church, beginning with Origen and continuing in our time with Mikhail Bulgakov and Hans Urs von Balthasar," (thank you, Holy Father, for allowing that there is a problem with hell!) ** “In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory of a “final apocatastasis,” according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which indirectly abolished hell.”** (and no one here is denying that) “But the problem remains. Can God, who has loved man so much, permit the man who rejects him to be condemned to eternal torment? And yet the words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel, He speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (Mt 25:46). Who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard.” ** (that last sentence bears constant repeating!) “This is a mystery, truly inscrutable, which embraces the holiness of God and the conscience of man.” (hence, it is a paradox) ** “The silence of the Church is therefore the only appropriate position for the Christian faith.” (Amen!) ** “Even when Jesus says of Judas the traitor, “It would be better for that man if he had never been born,” (Mt 26:24) His words do not allude for certain to eternal punishment.”** (and if there is hope for Judas, there is hope for all of us!)

Pope John Paul then seems to attempt to resolve the paradox himself with an allusion to purgatory, using it to perhaps reconcile both the demands of justice and the reality of God’s eternal love and mercy.

"The Holy Scriptures include the concept of the purifying fire. The Eastern Church adopted it because it was biblical, while not receiving the Catholic doctrine on purgatory… God makes man pass through such an interior purgatory of his sensual and spiritual nature in order to bring him into union with Himself. Here we do not find ourselves before a mere tribunal. We present ourselves before the power of Love itself. * Before all else, it is Love that judges. God, who is Love, judges through love. Love that demands purification, before man can be made ready for that union with God which is his ultimate vocation and destiny. Perhaps this is enough."*

Was our Holy Father proposing here that more will pass through purgatory to heaven than will end up in hell? I hope so!
 
I believe the position of Theilhard De Chardin, in that man evolved biologically, up until about 10,000 years ago. Then, man began to evolve intellectually and spiritually.

The last part is my point here.

When we look back and quote the saints understanding of hell like St Thomas Aquinas, we have to keep in mind the time he lived in.

The Church back then had no problem sending heretics to hell burning them at the stake and that lasted right through to St Thomas Moore who sent four or six heretics to eternal damnation.

But I believe as Theilhard believed, man is evolving spiritually and still is.

Our Lord is continuing to reveal Himself and his revelation is one of mercy.

St Faustina’s told us of Jesus Divine Mercy, and now we observe Divine Mercy Sunday, following Easter Sunday. Do we believe in the mercy of Jesus ? We can only if we love Jesus and come to Him with open minds and hearts.

Julian of Norwich was evolved spiritually, not because of her own doing, but what God revealed to her.

We’re just now grasping that revelation she received.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I believe the position of Theilhard De Chardin, in that man evolved biologically, up until about 10,000 years ago. Then, man began to evolve intellectually and spiritually.

The last part is my point here.

When we look back and quote the saints understanding of hell like St Thomas Aquinas, we have to keep in mind the time he lived in.

The Church back then had no problem sending heretics to hell burning them at the stake and that lasted right through to St Thomas Moore who sent four or six heretics to eternal damnation.

But I believe as Theilhard believed, man is evolving spiritually and still is.

Our Lord is continuing to reveal Himself and his revelation is one of mercy.

St Faustina’s told us of Jesus Divine Mercy, and now we observe Divine Mercy Sunday, following Easter Sunday. Do we believe in the mercy of Jesus ? We can only if we love Jesus and come to Him with open minds and hearts.

Julian of Norwich was evolved spiritually, not because of her own doing, but what God revealed to her.

We’re just now grasping that revelation she received.

Jim
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Very good!

Someday, I will read Pierre Teilhard de Chardin for myself. I am a little intimidated. Maybe there is a “Chardin for Dummies” in the series for me :).

Yes, open minds and open hearts. I’ve heard that somewhere before, and I like it.
 
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