Just came back from Tridentine Mass

[AmyS]

Can someone please explain to me some of the comments made about NO mass… The Trindentine Mass sounds beautiful. I love my NO mass too, I have a very quaint church. I don’t understand the whole “true” mass thing some of the Trindentines have said. I really have respect for you and the mass you love so much, but, why the lack of charitablility when it comes to NO. I understand holding on to the traditions of the Trindentine Mass, but, isn’t it the Traditions that matter? I hope this is coming out right, it is just that reading some of these post breaks my heart, aren’t we all still Catholic?

 

[Franciscum]

AmyS:

Can someone please explain to me some of the comments made about NO mass… The Trindentine Mass sounds beautiful. I love my NO mass too, I have a very quaint church. I don’t understand the whole “true” mass thing some of the Trindentines have said. I really have respect for you and the mass you love so much, but, why the lack of charitablility when it comes to NO. I understand holding on to the traditions of the Trindentine Mass, but, isn’t it the Traditions that matter? I hope this is coming out right, it is just that reading some of these post breaks my heart, aren’t we all still Catholic?

Only someone extremely ignorant or intentionally misled would suggest that only the Tridentine Mass was the only “true” Mass. That’s simply a false statement. The normative Mass of Pope Paul VI is every bit as “true” as the Tridentine variety.

Some with a limited understand of liturgy and the Church in general erroneously latch-onto the normative Mass as being the source of all the problems in the Church today. They compound their confusion by incorrectly viewing the Tridentine Mass as some sort of silver bullet that would fix everything – if only it would once again become normative within the Church.

Utter poppycock indeed, but a great many “traditionalists” hold this intrinsically flawed position, much like some of our Protestant breathern cling to the notion of “KJV-onlyism.”

 

[jimmy]

AmyS:

Can someone please explain to me some of the comments made about NO mass… The Trindentine Mass sounds beautiful. I love my NO mass too, I have a very quaint church. I don’t understand the whole “true” mass thing some of the Trindentines have said. I really have respect for you and the mass you love so much, but, why the lack of charitablility when it comes to NO. I understand holding on to the traditions of the Trindentine Mass, but, isn’t it the Traditions that matter? I hope this is coming out right, it is just that reading some of these post breaks my heart, aren’t we all still Catholic?

There is nothing wrong with the people who go to the NO mass, they are all still just as much Catholic. But if you go to a tridentine mass you will see that everyone is serious about there Catholic faith. There is always a line to recieve reconciliation. It is not like that at a NO mass. Many of the people at the NO mass are not paying attention and just can’t wait to get out.

The tridentine mass is also a much fuller liturgy than the NO mass. It is done in a much more reverent way without any liturgical abuses. With the NO mass some churches do not have the liturgical abuses, but many others do. Also there is an attempt in the NO mass to appeal to the teens and the protestants. They have the guitars and stuff and the teen masses.

Both the NO and the tridentine are valid though. When you here the “true mass” stuff, it is probably from a SSPX perspective. The SSPX do not accept the NO mass.

 

[AmyS]

jimmy:

There is nothing wrong with the people who go to the NO mass, they are all still just as much Catholic. But if you go to a tridentine mass you will see that everyone is serious about there Catholic faith. There is always a line to recieve reconciliation. It is not like that at a NO mass. Many of the people at the NO mass are not paying attention and just can’t wait to get out.

The tridentine mass is also a much fuller liturgy than the NO mass. It is done in a much more reverent way without any liturgical abuses. With the NO mass some churches do not have the liturgical abuses, but many others do. Also there is an attempt in the NO mass to appeal to the teens and the protestants. They have the guitars and stuff and the teen masses.

Both the NO and the tridentine are valid though. When you here the “true mass” stuff, it is probably from a SSPX perspective. The SSPX do not accept the NO mass.

Great answer… Thank you so much. I think the people who go to NO who get offended probably have good parishes like me… I have a very reverant priest, we are very blessed at our parish. I think any reverant Catholic is going to offended by the liturgical abuses, I am… I think those parish priest need to be put out. That is true about the SSPX, I think that is also why I have a hard time with the bickering, I have mentioned before that my bestfriend is now SSPX. It is very much like a cult. She doesn’t see it either and is constantly pointing out "t"raditions she sees wrong with NO masses… I try to keep her focused on the "T"raditions but unfortunatly she really doesn’t know what she is talking about.

We have such a beautiful faith with so many trying to cut us down, we need to stand strong together and work through all the problems. It is like family fighting, it is sad.

 

[jimmy]

AmyS:

Great answer… Thank you so much. I think the people who go to NO who get offended probably have good parishes like me… I have a very reverant priest, we are very blessed at our parish. I think any reverant Catholic is going to offended by the liturgical abuses, I am… I think those parish priest need to be put out. That is true about the SSPX, I think that is also why I have a hard time with the bickering, I have mentioned before that my bestfriend is now SSPX. It is very much like a cult. She doesn’t see it either and is constantly pointing out "t"raditions she sees wrong with NO masses… I try to keep her focused on the "T"raditions but unfortunatly she really doesn’t know what she is talking about.

We have such a beautiful faith with so many trying to cut us down, we need to stand strong together and work through all the problems. It is like family fighting, it is sad.

I think the SSPX ignores the fact that there have always been different liturgies in the church. There has always been the liturgies of St. John(Byzantine) and of St. James(Maronite) and others. They also ignore the fact that the church has the right to adjust the liturgy if it is necisary. Its not a dogma that the mass must be in latin.

I think that many of the modern Catholics look at the traditional movement as bad and they reject the tridentine mass. This is the other extreme. Many bishops will not allow it, like the bishop here around Penn State.

If you go to a tridentine mass you can see that there is no wasted time and everything is done with the most possible reverence. I personally think that the tridentine mass is a better expression of the ideal liturgy because it mainains all the symbolism and it is more focused on the sacrifice to God. The NO mass has moved a little away from this.

 

[jimmy]

AmyS:

Great answer… Thank you so much. I think the people who go to NO who get offended probably have good parishes like me… I have a very reverant priest, we are very blessed at our parish. I think any reverant Catholic is going to offended by the liturgical abuses, I am… I think those parish priest need to be put out. That is true about the SSPX, I think that is also why I have a hard time with the bickering, I have mentioned before that my bestfriend is now SSPX. It is very much like a cult. She doesn’t see it either and is constantly pointing out "t"raditions she sees wrong with NO masses… I try to keep her focused on the "T"raditions but unfortunatly she really doesn’t know what she is talking about.

We have such a beautiful faith with so many trying to cut us down, we need to stand strong together and work through all the problems. It is like family fighting, it is sad.

The SSPX is definately like a cult in some ways. They have all these conspiracy theories about the modern church. They need to realize that obedience to the pope is meant to be in all matters, even those which they do not agree with. If you are only obeying when you agree, are you really obedient? Ignatius said to treat the bishop as you would treat Christ because the bishop has your best interest in mind.

Be ye subject to the bishop as to the Lord, for "he watches for your souls, as one that shall give account to God. Ignatius to the Tralians

be subject to the presbytery, as to the apostle of Jesus Christ, who is our hope, in whom, if we live, we shall [at last] be found. It is fitting also that the deacons, as being [the ministers] of the mysteries of Jesus Christ, should in every respect be pleasing to all.

Ignatius to the Tralians

There are some good NO parishes. The one I go to here at Penn State is a very orthodox parish. They take the sacraments very seriously and they consider confession to be important. I also don’t see a whole lot of liturgical abuse either.

Yes, we have to realize that we are all one church and that we are fighting the same things.

 

[misericordie]

RSiscoe:

For a minute there I thought I was viewing a video of the Papal Mass at “world youth day 2004”

Texcellent: That’s one type of thing I meant.
Very good.

 

[misericordie]

jimmy:

The SSPX is definately like a cult in some ways. They have all these conspiracy theories about the modern church. They need to realize that obedience to the pope is meant to be in all matters, even those which they do not agree with. If you are only obeying when you agree, are you really obedient? Ignatius said to treat the bishop as you would treat Christ because the bishop has your best interest in mind.

There are some good NO parishes. The one I go to here at Penn State is a very orthodox parish. They take the sacraments very seriously and they consider confession to be important. I also don’t see a whole lot of liturgical abuse either.

Yes, we have to realize that we are all one church and that we are fighting the same things.

Can you actually cite ONE single document of “conspiracy” of the St. Pius x society? At least provide ONE DIRECT quolt from them on that? Well of course not: Stop going by just hearsay: it’s sinful: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_9_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_14_4.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_7.gif

 

[FrmrTrad]

jimmy:

Many of the people at the NO mass are not paying attention and just can’t wait to get out.

Here is a good example of how apparently innocent ‘preference’ for the Tridentine liturgy leads inexorably to a judgmental stance.

jimmy:

The tridentine mass is also a much fuller liturgy than the NO mass. It is done in a much more reverent way without any liturgical abuses.

Here is an example of simplistic reasoning. When Tridentine liturgy was normative, there were cases of priests rushing and so forth. The abuse is not the same as the rite.

jimmy:

The SSPX do not accept the NO mass.

And they thus condemn themselves, rejecting the authority of the Church (Dz 1642) and leading many people astray. Schism is a worse sin than unbelief (St. Thomas, S. Theol., II II 39 2 ad 3). See posts 191-197 of this thread, where I have summarized many salient points. Traditionalist literature is rife with errors, and participation in the traditionalist community is dangerous, tending to harm one’s relationship to the sacraments.

 

[misericordie]

FrmrTrad:

Here is a good example of how apparently innocent ‘preference’ for the Tridentine liturgy leads inexorably to a judgmental stance.Here is an example of simplistic reasoning. When Tridentine liturgy was normative, there were cases of priests rushing and so forth. The abuse is not the same as the rite.And they thus condemn themselves, rejecting the authority of the Church (Dz 1642) and leading many people astray. Schism is a worse sin than unbelief (St. Thomas, S. Theol., II II 39 2 ad 3). See posts 191-197 of this thread, where I have summarized many salient points. Traditionalist literature is rife with errors, and participation in the traditionalist community is dangerous, tending to harm one’s relationship to the sacraments.

You are still equating POPE john Paul II’s ecclesia document with schism?? Yes, there is much noise at times in the NO Mass, just go to most parishes. Seems like entertainment at SOME NO masses: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_1.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_137.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_1_144.gif

 

[bear06]

Can you actually cite ONE single document of “conspiracy” of the St. Pius x society? At least provide ONE DIRECT quolt from them on that? Well of course not: Stop going by just hearsay: it’s sinful:

Yes, here’s just one little gem on Fatima:
sspx.org/miscellaneous/fatima.html

Quote from the above article:

This makes us think that not everything that Sister Lucia knows is in this secret.

I’ll give you some more later when I get more time.

 

[misericordie]

bear06:

Yes, here’s just one little gem on Fatima:
sspx.org/miscellaneous/fatima.html

Quote from the above article:

I’ll give you some more later when I get more time.

Actually all, the sspx is not the only ones who have said this (which has elements of truth) see www.fatima.org various theologians have concluded too that (they ARE in good standing) the FULL third secret was NOT revealed: how is this conspiracy?? bear06, please cite something that is NOT regarding private revelations. Now, now, don’t start dancing around the issue again: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_122.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_120.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_118.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/1055.gif

 

[bear06]

Actually all, the sspx is not the only ones who have said this (which has elements of truth) see www.fatima.org various theologians have concluded too that (they ARE in good standing) the FULL third secret was NOT revealed: how is this conspiracy?? bear06, please cite something that is NOT regarding private revelations.

I believe you asked for conspiracy theories. I gave you one. If you want something specific, specify it and stop saying people are avoiding the questions when they answer them. It would seem that you are constantly changing the rules of the game. What theologians are you talking about?

 

[bear06]

You can check out these on the question and answer forum sspx’s own site for just some of their conspiracy theories. There’s too much to paste here but, like I said, you can find them on their site. To catch more you’d actually have to waste time reading some of the Angelus Press books. Some of them are chalk full of them.

Are the prayers after Low Mass to be recited for the conversion of Russia, and if so why is this rarely announced?

THE “SAINTHOOD” OF JOSEMARIA ESCRIVA
Is the Novus Ordo Mass invalid, or sacrilegious, and should I assist at it when I have no alternative?

Can Catherine of Siena and Saint Therese of the Child Jesus be considered Doctors of the Church?

Can a traditional Catholic go to confession to a Novus Ordo priest?

Has the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart requested by Our Lady been accomplished?

Is it possible to say that the post-Conciliar Church is a new religion, and if so, how can it be considered as Catholic?

Besides these, if you read a lot of their articles you constantly see people like Padre Pio, Cardinal Ratzinger, Sr. Lucia quoted but no footnotes are ever provided. They just provide these quotes as if they are automatically believed to be true with no proof.

Whenever they run into an obstical to their beliefs suddenly the Rome is lying, there’s no possible way that a priest could have the proper intention, proper processes weren’t followed, etc., etc., etc. Of course, one has to ask, according to who? Them, of course!

 

[bear06]

various theologians have concluded too that (they ARE in good standing)

Are you actually saying that Fr. Gruner is in good standing with the Church?! Who are we talking about here because it can’t be him?

theotokos.org.uk/pages/fatima/ngruner/ngruner.html

 

[Franciscum]

jimmy:

There is nothing wrong with the people who go to the NO mass, they are all still just as much Catholic. But if you go to a tridentine mass you will see that everyone is serious about there Catholic faith. There is always a line to recieve reconciliation. It is not like that at a NO mass. Many of the people at the NO mass are not paying attention and just can’t wait to get out.

The tridentine mass is also a much fuller liturgy than the NO mass. It is done in a much more reverent way without any liturgical abuses. With the NO mass some churches do not have the liturgical abuses, but many others do. Also there is an attempt in the NO mass to appeal to the teens and the protestants. They have the guitars and stuff and the teen masses.

Both the NO and the tridentine are valid though. When you here the “true mass” stuff, it is probably from a SSPX perspective. The SSPX do not accept the NO mass.

Nothing but conjecture. This type of harangue is precisely the reason why a great number of people look at many self-described “traditionalists” as being just a touch off. If I were a “traditionalist” I would be offended at such ignorant comments.

I high-lighted the most erroneous parts of your posting for your edification.

 

[Franciscum]

AmyS:

We have such a beautiful faith with so many trying to cut us down, we need to stand strong together and work through all the problems. It is like family fighting, it is sad.

Sadly, most Tridentine Masses I have attended are quite small. They are typically populated by extremely bitter individuals who live with nasty cases of bunker mentality. Their focus many times seems to be on whining about the Church, and not about worshipping God.

No, this is certainly not the case in all situations, but it certainly is predominant – at least around here.

The Church may indeed be guilty of pushing said people into a corner, thus marginalizing them, but thee has to be a better way than always focusing on what’s wrong, rather than what’s right.

 

[misericordie]

Franciscum:

Sadly, most Tridentine Masses I have attended are quite small. They are typically populated by extremely bitter individuals who live with nasty cases of bunker mentality. Their focus many times seems to be on whining about the Church, and not about worshipping God.

No, this is certainly not the case in all situations, but it certainly is predominant – at least around here.

The Church may indeed be guilty of pushing said people into a corner, thus marginalizing them, but thee has to be a better way than always focusing on what’s wrong, rather than what’s right.

Well, must be you have attended one small country parish and decided to pass judgement based on YOUR PERSONAL experience. Not the case here in my Archdiocese: large nunmbers of professional young adults and families. My parish: about 350 every Sunday in the Tridentine Latin Mass of INDULT. Seems your experience is 1 out of MANY: adress the issues, don’t dance with opinions just facts: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_5_138.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_116.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_122.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_120.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/5/5_1_118.gif

 

[misericordie]

bear06:

I believe you asked for conspiracy theories. I gave you one. If you want something specific, specify it and stop saying people are avoiding the questions when they answer them. It would seem that you are constantly changing the rules of the game. What theologians are you talking about?

I take it that since you dislike orthodox publishers you then probably favor what: may be orbis books(Maryknoll)?? smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_20_3.gif

 

[RSiscoe]

When the New Mass was first being introduced, Cardinal Ottaviani, who served as head of the Holy Office under three Popes (the Holy office was the Vatican tribunal responsible for uprooting heresy and protecting the purity of the Catholic faith) came out with a scathing letter against it. Soon thereafter, the Cardinal Ottaviani was silenced, and the New Mass was imposed on the Church.
The following is what the Cardinal said in his cover letter the Pope Paul VI. And keep in mind that what the Cardinal was condemning was the new mass in its most pure condition and without any “abuses”. The mass had not yet been poorly translated into the vernacular; the Priest was still facing the altar, there were no altar girls, no communion in the hand, and the words of consecration had not been changed (since the change was made in the translation to the vernacular). Yet, even its most pristine state, the Cardinal felt it his duty to warn Paul VI of the serious consequences that could result from this “innovation”.

Cardinal Ottaviani: "Having carefully examined, and presented for the scrutiny of others, the Novus Ordo Missae prepared by the experts of the Consilium ad exequendam Constitutionem de Sacra Liturgia, and after lengthy prayer and reflection, we feel it to be our bounden duty in the sight of God and towards Your Holiness, to put before you the following considerations:

1. The accompanying critical study of the Novus Ordo Missae, the work of a group of theologians, liturgists and pastors of souls, shows quite clearly in spite of its brevity that if we consider the innovations implied or taken for granted which may of course be evaluated in different ways, **the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent. The “canons” of the rite definitively fixed at that time provided an insurmountable barrier to any heresy directed against the integrity of the Mystery.

**2. The pastoral reasons adduced to support such a grave break with tradition, even if such reasons could be regarded as holding good in the face of doctrinal considerations, do not seem to us sufficient. The innovations in the Novus Ordo and the fact that all that is of perennial value finds only a minor place, if it subsists at all, could well turn into a certainty the suspicions already prevalent, alas, in many circles, that truths which have always been believed by the Christian people, can be changed or ignored without infidelity to that sacred deposit of doctrine to which the Catholic faith is bound for ever. Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment on the part of the faithful who are already showing signs of restiveness and of an indubitable lessening of faith.

**Amongst the best of the clergy the practical result is an agonising crisis of conscience of which innumerable instances come tour notice daily.

continue… **