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HagiaSophia
Guest
Actually the word is quite correct, suffer also means to bear with, to put up with. For instance, one can suffer the company of bores and thread hijackers. (Doesn’t mean you have to like it.)
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Mysty101
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by deogratias (to Albert)
when I address a post to you, you may reply and when I address it to someone else - butt out.
albert cipriani:
SuZ
Originally Posted by deogratias (to Albert)
when I address a post to you, you may reply and when I address it to someone else - butt out.
albert cipriani:
This has been bothering me for a few days–I thought anyone can reply to a post on an open board.
SuZ
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Mysty101
Guest
Are we all at least in agreement as to what is allowed as options and what is definitely abusive? Also something done by the congregation is rarely (if ever) considered an abuse. I think it is only the Priest who commits a liturgical abuse.
Then what are minor abuses, which it might be better to just ignore? (such as the Priest inviting the congregation to join hands for the Lord’s Prayer)
Also try to find a Mass that you are comfortable attending. Try a few different ones. If there is more than one priest in your Parish, see which style you prefer, and attend his Masses. Also note the style of Masses at different times. Our church has one very Charismatic style Mass, 3 more contemporary, and 3 more traditional. This was done because many people preferred one over the other. I do not see any real abuses in any—just differences in style (mostly of music)
I agree the Mass is very important, and everyone should be able to worship in the style they prefer providing it is an authentic Mass.
SuZ
Then what are minor abuses, which it might be better to just ignore? (such as the Priest inviting the congregation to join hands for the Lord’s Prayer)
Also try to find a Mass that you are comfortable attending. Try a few different ones. If there is more than one priest in your Parish, see which style you prefer, and attend his Masses. Also note the style of Masses at different times. Our church has one very Charismatic style Mass, 3 more contemporary, and 3 more traditional. This was done because many people preferred one over the other. I do not see any real abuses in any—just differences in style (mostly of music)
I agree the Mass is very important, and everyone should be able to worship in the style they prefer providing it is an authentic Mass.
SuZ
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Agreed!
So why brand those of use who seek that absolutely authentic and never abrogated Tridentine Mass schismatics? Why are we alone singled out as Rad Trads while Novus Ordo Catholics are free to attend charismatic Masses and youth masses or more reverently traditional masses?
The fact that you guys can find a mass “that you are comfortable attending” but we Rad Trads are denied that option seems hypocritical. The fact that bishops unjustly and illegally supress the Tridentine Mass seems not reason enough for us to be complicit with them by obeying them in what amounts to their having banned that Mass. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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Crusader
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albert cipriani:
Unlike the SSPX, Catholics who attend charismatic or youth Masses are neither heretics or schismatics.
albert cipriani:
Please remember:
“Just because it’s “traditonal” does not mean it’s abuse free. It dosen’t even mean it’s Catholic.”
The SSPX are schismatics (or heretics.) Read *Ecclesia Dei. *
Unlike the SSPX, Catholics who attend charismatic or youth Masses are neither heretics or schismatics.
albert cipriani:
The SSPX are not Catholic, no matter how much you want them to be. Read Ecclesia Dei. The Pope leaves the final choice up to the cognizant bishop – we do not (as yet) have a “universal indult.” To suggest that “bishops unjustly and illegally supress the Tridentine Mass” is to show ignorance of Ecclesia Dei. While some bishop’s choices may frustrate you, it’s no reason to join the non-Catholic SSPX.
Please remember:
“Just because it’s “traditonal” does not mean it’s abuse free. It dosen’t even mean it’s Catholic.”
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Anyone can reply to a post on an open board… But us Traditionalists aren’t anyone, we’re nobodies, we’re persona non gratias. That’s why I’ve been banned from most of the Catholic message boards I’ve posted on while the Catholics therein welcome with open arms and bushels of understanding the Protestants.
The double standard is justified on the basis that Rad Trads, don’t have standards. We’ve betrayed and abandoned the Catholic faith and so have forfeited any claim on standards. Hence, any apeal to standards falls on deaf ears when we squawk at the double-dealing double-standards being applied to us.
Traditionalists can be treated worse than pagans because they are worse than pagans. We are the modern-day incarnation of Judas. We threw away the pearl of great price you guys still cling to. That’s how the lack of reasoning goes. Never mind that us Traditionalists are more morally and dogmatically orthodox than the majority of “Catholic” priests and bishops. The fact that we disobey our disobedient and arguably non-Catholic bishops is what disqualifies us as Catholics. We’re called heretics, Protestants, schismatics, and excommunicated reprobates.
You see, for reasons only the devils fully realize, in these last days being obedient to the disobedient is seen as the highest most noble virtue of longsuffering that Catholics are capable of. Whereas, being disobedient to our disobedient bishops is seen as the most damning of sins. Thus, we who conform to the Church in all the ways that were her ways prior to the Second Vatican Council find ourselves outside the Church. While openly heretical and criminally negligent and morally bankrupt bishops and priests are elevated to seats of honor within the Church. Strange days are upon us. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
albert cipriani:
I agree with Crusader’s assesment, but beyond that, I’m sick of the attitude that I’m less of a good Catholic or less reverent toward the Eucharist because I rec. in the hand, standing up, and under both species. SOME of you traditionalists think you know better than the pope, who allows the above. If you’re not one, that’s great. If you are, here’s a little info: Traditional doesn’t always mean orthodox!:nope:
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Crusader
Guest
What blows me away is that many of the practices of the so-called “traditonalists” are ever bit as abusive as the most “progressive” Catholics out there.
Yet because they view their actions as being “traditional”, they feel they are not abusive or irregular even when they are abusive or irregular based on what the Church actually directs. Scary.
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Crusader
Guest
albert cipriani:
Your characterization of Catholic bishops is scary.
V2 was a legitimate ecumenical council of the Church. That’s something you are going to have to get used to.
You are simply not telling the truth…
Your characterization of Catholic bishops is scary.
V2 was a legitimate ecumenical council of the Church. That’s something you are going to have to get used to.
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Yes I am.
No, you’re scary.
Duh.
The point of these worthless responses of mine was to demonstrate how uninformative and boring your unargued assertions against me are. Whatever points you may have, try to argue them. Otherwise, this board degenerates into the verbal equivalent of a sports match. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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Mysty101
Guest
albert cipriani:
Why do you feel that you cannot worship in the traditional manner? Are there no authentic Tridentine Masses in your area?
Are there many people in your area who feel as you do? Have you looked at the schedules of Latin Masses put out by the Latin Mass group?
SuZ
Albert,
Why do you feel that you cannot worship in the traditional manner? Are there no authentic Tridentine Masses in your area?
Are there many people in your area who feel as you do? Have you looked at the schedules of Latin Masses put out by the Latin Mass group?
SuZ
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Mysty101
Guest
Does anyone know how the Council of Trent was received?
Do you know what changes were made, and how the people received the directives?
SuZ
Do you know what changes were made, and how the people received the directives?
SuZ
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albert_cipriani
Guest
The nearest licit Tridentine Mass (offered via the indult) is 60 miles away in an industrial park and I believe only 3 Sundays per month, thus force-feeding the N.O. to Traditional Catholics who wish to remain in communion with our bishop.
Sure. There’s at least 35 of us.
The schedule I have is from the Traditio.com. Thanks for your concern and questions. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Trent is considered one of the most successful councils the Church ever had. It was a hammer-blow to the so-called Reformation, dishing out anathemas like flapjacks, infallibly flipping Protestantism onto its back and leaving no intellectual room for anyone to embrace their ideas after Trent formally defined every one of them as heresies.
Catholics received Trent’s directives with open arms. The Protestants shunned them. Today, 40 years after VCII, the Protestant-wannabes among us Catholics are still “implementing” VCII with both hands while us few completely orthodox Catholics still stand with our arms akimbo in defiance of all its fallible pastoral directives that for two generations now have been transforming Catholics into Protestants. Dare to resist. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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bear06
Guest
Bah, hah, hah! I can see you’re not a fan of historic accuracy. Yes, it was received well by most but you still had your “rad-Trads and liberals” of the day who would not submit to it. Sounds rather familiar to me!
Once again, it seems that there is a lack of historical foundation in most of your arguments even though you seem to think you are the only ones who cling to Tradition.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
The decrees of the Council of Trent, while widely received, also were not always uniformly, quickly, or enthusiastically implemented. Just as one example, Trent called for the foundation of diocesan seminaries. Lyons, the second largest city in France, did not establish a seminary until 1618 - more than 50 years after the close of the council. Paris, the largest city in France and that nation’s capital, did not establish a seminary until the 1680s. More than 100 years after the close of the council.
While it may be tempting to believe that the reforms of Trent brought about immediate change throughout the world, that notion is horribly erroneous. Implementation of reform depended upon individuals, be they popes, bishops, priests or laymen. Yes, even some popes and cardinals resisted the reforms. Charles Borromeo’s reforming zeal brought about resistance not only from his own clergy in the archdiocese of Milan but also from Rome itself.
While it may be tempting to believe that the reforms of Trent brought about immediate change throughout the world, that notion is horribly erroneous. Implementation of reform depended upon individuals, be they popes, bishops, priests or laymen. Yes, even some popes and cardinals resisted the reforms. Charles Borromeo’s reforming zeal brought about resistance not only from his own clergy in the archdiocese of Milan but also from Rome itself.
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albert_cipriani
Guest
Andreas Hofer:
Here’s how the Catholic Encyclopedia describes St. Charles’ restorations:
You err in calling St. Charles work “reforming zeal.” Restoring is the opposite of reforming. What St. Charles did was RESTORE Catholics to their faith, not implement reforms, not instigate innovations. Those are the buzzwords used by post-conciliarists to destroy Catholicism. Catholicism has never had any need of reform (unless you believe the Protestants were right). Catholicism has only and always (and especially today!) been in need of being restored to its perennial traditions.
Here’s how the Catholic Encyclopedia describes St. Charles’ restorations:
What he did sounds an awful lot like what us Traditionalist Catholics are trying to do over the objections of you Novus Ordo Catholics who wish to remain obedient at all costs. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic
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bear06
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albert cipriani:
Let’s ignore the fact that you are not historically correct. You can throw out how wonderful, pious, orthodox all you like but it doesn’t change this fact. I just don’t want anyone to miss that you are still historically challenged.
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Andreas_Hofer
Guest
Establishment of seminaries, formation of priests towards producing better confessors, and frequent convocation of diocesan synods were all new mandates of the Council of Trent. Therefore, they were reforms, and not restorations of old practices.
Nota bene: I don’t see why I got lumped into “you Novus Ordo Catholics” just for pointing out historical inaccuracy. I’m actually partial to the traditional rubrics.
Nota bene: I don’t see why I got lumped into “you Novus Ordo Catholics” just for pointing out historical inaccuracy. I’m actually partial to the traditional rubrics.
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bear06
Guest
Could it because you have an historical perspective that he doesn’t share? :clapping:
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