Just making sure RE: adultery

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Just to emphasize it again, my question is a very simple moral theology question -does the unknown fact about a person change the moral qualities of the acts done to them by the agent who is ignorant of such facts?

My example about someone who mistakenly imagines having sex with a single woman who is in fact, not single, is an instance of the above question; a test scenario.

So in that case would the sin be magnified?
If, in each case the sin is a “capital offense” (Mortal sin), then one is no different than the other. How do you “magnify” a capital crime??

Since the sin is mental - Fantasizing it would really fall under Lusting. The marital status of the fantasy partner makes no difference. In fact, I doubt if the actual existence of the fantasy partner matters.

Peace
James
 
Just to emphasize it again, my question is a very simple moral theology question -does the unknown fact about a person change the moral qualities of the acts done to them by the agent who is ignorant of such facts?

My example about someone who mistakenly imagines having sex with a single woman who is in fact, not single, is an instance of the above question; a test scenario.

So in that case would the sin be magnified?
Adultery= Mortal. Hell.
Lusting= Mortal. Hell.
Murder= Mortal. Hell.

I dont understand your need to classify sins next to one another. Mortal sin without confession =hell. It isnt any less hot or more hot , it just is hell.
 
user "Catholicpotato":
I dont understand your need to classify sins next to one another. Mortal sin without confession =hell. It isnt any less hot or more hot , it just is hell.
Well that’s clearly not true, for some mortal sins are worse since there are different punishments for different mortal sins and different levels of hell for different sinners.

If I kill people I’m in a deeper level than if I’m an adulterer.

So again, do my conditions make that sin worse? I think it does since a sin is differentiated according to its material object so that one sins the worse, the worse one relates to said object.

Also, I’m not sure if it’s so much that a mortal sin gets increased in degree, than that the object changes (from imaginary woman/man to real) and so you commit a new and worse type of mortal sin. But that’s just speculation; feel free to correct.
 
Well that’s clearly not true, for some mortal sins are worse since there are different punishments for different mortal sins and different levels of hell for different sinners.

If I kill people I’m in a deeper level than if I’m an adulterer.

So again, do my conditions make that sin worse? I think it does since a sin is differentiated according to its material object so that one sins the worse, the worse one relates to said object.

Also, I’m not sure if it’s so much that a mortal sin gets increased in degree, than that the object changes (from imaginary woman/man to real) and so you commit a new and worse type of mortal sin. But that’s just speculation; feel free to correct.
I was unaware of “levels of hell” can you direct me to some info on the subject that isnt “the divine comedy”
 
Well that’s clearly not true, for some mortal sins are worse since there are different punishments for different mortal sins and different levels of hell for different sinners.

If I kill people I’m in a deeper level than if I’m an adulterer.

So again, do my conditions make that sin worse? I think it does since a sin is differentiated according to its material object so that one sins the worse, the worse one relates to said object.

Also, I’m not sure if it’s so much that a mortal sin gets increased in degree, than that the object changes (from imaginary woman/man to real) and so you commit a new and worse type of mortal sin. But that’s just speculation; feel free to correct.
From the CCC
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
and
1057 Hell’s principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
I do not see where there are “levels” of Hell. Just the idea that if one sins, the wages of sin is death (Hell) and Hell is eternal SEPARATION from God. How can you have levels of separation? You either are separated or with God. Also Jesus when describing the burning and gnashing of teeth is obviously putting all those outside salvation into the same fate.
To put it another way, in the burning pile of weeds, it doesnt matter what part of the pile you are on, you are still going to burn.
 
To: Catholicpotato
“I do not see where there are “levels” of Hell. Just the idea that if one sins, the wages of sin is death (Hell) and Hell is eternal SEPARATION from God. How can you have levels of separation? You either are separated or with God. Also Jesus when describing the burning and gnashing of teeth is obviously putting all those outside salvation into the same fate.
To put it another way, in the burning pile of weeds, it doesnt matter what part of the pile you are on, you are still going to burn.”

Well, I’m not sure if there are any “levels” of hell but we know that people are punished according to their crime and since all intrinsically evil things are not equally evil, and since all mortal sins are intrinsically evil, and if we switch these statements around we arrive by perfect deduction to the conclusion that all mortal sins are not equally evil. So not every mortal sin is punished exactly alike. Therefore in hell, there are different degrees of eternal suffering.

The same happens in heaven where not all share the same degree of eternal happiness.
 
To: Catholicpotato
“I do not see where there are “levels” of Hell. Just the idea that if one sins, the wages of sin is death (Hell) and Hell is eternal SEPARATION from God. How can you have levels of separation? You either are separated or with God. Also Jesus when describing the burning and gnashing of teeth is obviously putting all those outside salvation into the same fate.
To put it another way, in the burning pile of weeds, it doesnt matter what part of the pile you are on, you are still going to burn.”

Well, I’m not sure if there are any “levels” of hell but we know that people are punished according to their crime and since all intrinsically evil things are not equally evil, and since all mortal sins are intrinsically evil, and if we switch these statements around we arrive by perfect deduction to the conclusion that all mortal sins are not equally evil. So not every mortal sin is punished exactly alike. Therefore in hell, there are different degrees of eternal suffering.

The same happens in heaven where not all share the same degree of eternal happiness.
Again, how do we “know” what you are saying.

All things ARE equal. To sin is to go against God.

Hell= separation from God meaning ALL things good.
How can you have different punishments within a Godless existence? One is not punished more for eternity for Murder or Adultery, each mortal sin separates you from God. period. To say that there are levels of punishment means that in relation to each other levels can be better or worse… well apart from God there is no “better” there cannot be by definition. There is only worse. The person who meets the requirements for the mortal sin of missing Mass gets the same fate as the one who meets the requirements for the mortal sin of murder. Sin is sin.
requirements are Grave matter, Knowledge and Consent.
 
To: Catholicpotato
“I do not see where there are “levels” of Hell. Just the idea that if one sins, the wages of sin is death (Hell) and Hell is eternal SEPARATION from God. How can you have levels of separation? You either are separated or with God. Also Jesus when describing the burning and gnashing of teeth is obviously putting all those outside salvation into the same fate.
To put it another way, in the burning pile of weeds, it doesnt matter what part of the pile you are on, you are still going to burn.”

Well, I’m not sure if there are any “levels” of hell but we know that people are punished according to their crime and since all intrinsically evil things are not equally evil, and since all mortal sins are intrinsically evil, and if we switch these statements around we arrive by perfect deduction to the conclusion that all mortal sins are not equally evil. So not every mortal sin is punished exactly alike. **Therefore in hell, there are different degrees of eternal suffering. **

The same happens in heaven where not all share the same degree of eternal happiness.
I disagree with this assertion…
I would posit that there are different types of suffering in hell depending on the sins in life, but that the degree of suffering is the same.

In Hell, the degreee of suffering is total…So - Mortal sin, regardless of specifics warrants the same degree of punishment.
In Hell the type of suffering inflicted may well depend on the specifics of the sin. So in this case, what you have been asking might have bearing on just how the punishment is inflicted, but would have no effect on the degree to which the punishment is inflicted.

Peace
James
 
user "JRKH":
I disagree with this assertion…
I would posit that there are different types of suffering in hell depending on the sins in life, but that the degree of suffering is the same.

In Hell, the degreee of suffering is total…So - Mortal sin, regardless of specifics warrants the same degree of punishment.
In Hell the type of suffering inflicted may well depend on the specifics of the sin. So in this case, what you have been asking might have bearing on just how the punishment is inflicted, but would have no effect on the degree to which the punishment is inflicted.
But from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

**The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
**
and also although hell does not admit of temporary alleviations of pain still the encyclopedia states: "However, accidental changes in the pains of hell are not excluded. Thus it may be that the reprobate is sometimes more and sometimes less tormented by his surroundings. Especially after the last judgment there will be an accidental increase in punishment; for then the demons will never again be permitted to leave the confines of hell, but will be finally imprisoned for all eternity; and the reprobate souls of men will be tormented by union with their hideous bodies."

So there are different degrees of suffering in hell just as there are different degrees of happiness in heaven.
 
But from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

**The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
**
and also although hell does not admit of temporary alleviations of pain still the encyclopedia states: "However, accidental changes in the pains of hell are not excluded. Thus it may be that the reprobate is sometimes more and sometimes less tormented by his surroundings. Especially after the last judgment there will be an accidental increase in punishment; for then the demons will never again be permitted to leave the confines of hell, but will be finally imprisoned for all eternity; and the reprobate souls of men will be tormented by union with their hideous bodies."

So there are different degrees of suffering in hell just as there are different degrees of happiness in heaven.
The Church teaches that the chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God and that is suffered by everyone in Hell. It therefore hardly seems relevant if there are additional punishments which are lesser than that.
 
The Church teaches that the chief punishment of Hell is eternal separation from God and that is suffered by everyone in Hell. It therefore hardly seems relevant if there are additional punishments which are lesser than that.
Yes. there is just no way a person is in Hell for blasphemy and is going “well this sucks but at least I’m not suffering as much as that murderer over there…”
 
But from the Catholic Encyclopedia:

**The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit. This holds true not only of the pain of sense, but also of the pain of loss. A more intense hatred of God, a more vivid consciousness of utter abandonment by Divine goodness, a more restless craving to satisfy the natural desire for beatitude with things external to God, a more acute sense of shame and confusion at the folly of having sought happiness in earthly enjoyment — all this implies as its correlation a more complete and more painful separation from God.
**
and also although hell does not admit of temporary alleviations of pain still the encyclopedia states: "However, accidental changes in the pains of hell are not excluded. Thus it may be that the reprobate is sometimes more and sometimes less tormented by his surroundings. Especially after the last judgment there will be an accidental increase in punishment; for then the demons will never again be permitted to leave the confines of hell, but will be finally imprisoned for all eternity; and the reprobate souls of men will be tormented by union with their hideous bodies."

So there are different degrees of suffering in hell just as there are different degrees of happiness in heaven.
Fakename,
Thanks for the citations. I guess that what they are terming “degrees”, I am thinking of as “type”…A rose by any other name…🤷
But it does indicate why it seemed as though we were talking past one another. 👍

Peace
James
 
user "Catholicpotato":
Yes. there is just no way a person is in Hell for blasphemy and is going “well this sucks but at least I’m not suffering as much as that murderer over there…”
That’s believable but let me add that the Church goes so far as to establish degrees for the pain of loss, which is the same as the lack of the beatific vision.

So quite unequivocally some people in hell are suffering less than other people and this is certainly true.

Indeed, if God punishes well, then the punishment fits the crime. But lack of the beatific vision is a punishment, so it must be that in hell there are different degrees of lack of vision according to the different object of the mortal sins.

If you have any contrary rational and/or authoritative statement then present it.
 
I have none…I’ll be interested if any others come up with something…

Something that strikes me is that greater or lesser punishment (for eternity) seems to allow for some degree of happiness (for lack of a better term)…
For, just as darkness is the absence of light, punishment is the absence of Happiness, Joy, contentment - Yes??? :hmmm:

Which leads to the question - is it possible to be happy in hell?? Or maybe put another way…is it possible to have some level of happiness or contentment in hell??:tanning:

🤷

Peace
James
 
That’s believable but let me add that the Church goes so far as to establish degrees for the pain of loss, which is the same as the lack of the beatific vision.

So quite unequivocally some people in hell are suffering less than other people and this is certainly true.

Indeed, if God punishes well, then the punishment fits the crime. But lack of the beatific vision is a punishment, so it must be that in hell there are different degrees of lack of vision according to the different object of the mortal sins.

If you have any contrary rational and/or authoritative statement then present it.
You are the one making the claim so it up to you to back it up with Church documents. So far you are just speculating.
We have told you EVERYONE in Hell suffers from the chief punishment which is eternal separation from God. The Church does not teach there are different degrees of separation from God in Hell. If you believe there are then where is the Church teaching backing up your assertion.
 
user "JRKH":
I have none…I’ll be interested if any others come up with something…

Something that strikes me is that greater or lesser punishment (for eternity) seems to allow for some degree of happiness (for lack of a better term)…
For, just as darkness is the absence of light, punishment is the absence of Happiness, Joy, contentment - Yes???

Which leads to the question - is it possible to be happy in hell?? Or maybe put another way…is it possible to have some level of happiness or contentment in hell??
The same encyclopedia article claims that there is no happiness in hell. If I venture a hypothesis I would say that just as different degrees of happiness in heaven doesn’t imply sadness, so too it appears that different degrees of suffering in hell doesn’t imply happiness.
user "thistle":
You are the one making the claim so it up to you to back it up with Church documents. So far you are just speculating.
We have told you EVERYONE in Hell suffers from the chief punishment which is eternal separation from God. The Church does not teach there are different degrees of separation from God in Hell. If you believe there are then where is the Church teaching backing up your assertion.
I’ve already given reasonable argument through the syllogism: If all mortal sins are intrinsically evil, and all intrinsic evils are unequal in their evil, then all mortal sins are unequal in evil. But if different punishments are for different evils, and if all mortal sins are different evils, then it follows that they require different punishments. But the pain of loss and sense are both punishments of hell. So if there are different mortal sins and the sinners go to hell, then there must be different punishments in hell.

I’m pretty sure that all logically flows together and that if it doesn’t, there are very few needed amendments to make it so. So if you accept one of the statements above, then you must accept all of them as certain truths unless you want to be unreasonable or unless you want to dispute one of the premises -that much is obvious. It is clearly not “speculation” in the sense of “giving an uncertain argument”; it suffices for perfect certainty on its own terms.

And plus, the Council of Florence stated: “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”

But since it is not at all impossible for me to be wrong, I asked for other info.
 
The same encyclopedia article claims that there is no happiness in hell. If I venture a hypothesis I would say that just as different degrees of happiness in heaven doesn’t imply sadness, so too it appears that different degrees of suffering in hell doesn’t imply happiness.

I’ve already given reasonable argument through the syllogism: If all mortal sins are intrinsically evil, and all intrinsic evils are unequal in their evil, then all mortal sins are unequal in evil. But if different punishments are for different evils, and if all mortal sins are different evils, then it follows that they require different punishments. But the pain of loss and sense are both punishments of hell. So if there are different mortal sins and the sinners go to hell, then there must be different punishments in hell.

I’m pretty sure that all logically flows together and that if it doesn’t, there are very few needed amendments to make it so. So if you accept one of the statements above, then you must accept all of them as certain truths unless you want to be unreasonable or unless you want to dispute one of the premises -that much is obvious. It is clearly not “speculation” in the sense of “giving an uncertain argument”; it suffices for perfect certainty on its own terms.

And plus, the Council of Florence stated:** “But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains.”**

But since it is not at all impossible for me to be wrong, I asked for other info.
Nobody is saying there is only one punishment.
What the Church teaches, though, is that everyone suffers the chief punishment which is eternal separation from God. There are no degrees of separation from God in Hell. In my opinion you are wrong. Its not up to me to prove that. Its up to you to prove you are right as you are the one making the claim. Up to now you have just speculated and nothing you have put forward, in my opinion, is convincing.
Frankly, the whole exercise is academic anyway. You are in Hell forever, never to see God so what difference does it make??
 
The same encyclopedia article claims that there is no happiness in hell. If I venture a hypothesis I would say that just as different degrees of happiness in heaven doesn’t imply sadness, so too it appears that different degrees of suffering in hell doesn’t imply happiness.
I guess I’m just too simple.

I equate the joy of heaven with pure light and the punishment of hell is a pure absence of light…All God or No God.
I just can’t fathom anything that is “No God” as having degrees in any sense that I understand.

I guess I am just too simple a soul.

Peace
James
 
is it adultery when you fantasize about someone who turns out to be married? But you were unaware that he/she was?

(Of course you shouldn’t really be fantasizing about people to begin with, but I’m just wondering).
You are overly scrupulous. You should be seeking help, not obsessing over every little detail of your life.
 
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