"Justice for Immigrants" and USCCB

[graciew]

Suppose in their proposals the bishops support something you strongly oppose, that you think is just a really bad idea. Having called this a moral issue aren’t we to assume that your opposition is now immoral and not just a difference of opinion?

Well, may I be honest? And personal? And refer to where I live?
I know our Bishops where I live are right in their teachings, and their involvement , and concern.
But it is me who is tired of the amount of injustices and problems, and messes, to which in all honesty, illegal inmigrants contribute also, but not so much…
It is a mess because of a lot of issues here… now when we add that a person who has enters illegally,feels entitled ( and mistreats doctors and I know this first hand …) to a hospital and she is taken care of for no expense,and then, one reads than an Argentinian in their places are charged in the thousands of dollars for the same emergency., well, there is when I get my tomatoes ready to use… That is very unfair, and a couple of neighbours(their administrations better say…) have zero sense of reciprocity.
But it is the noisy minority…
Venting a bit… but there you are.

Now, when I read in the last link I posted “ the moral person”…I was instantly reminded that the “ moral person” is just that : a moral person ,and I remembered a dear one lady I knew who had nothing and cried at the door while many ran to plunder a supermarket , telling us over and over that she just couldn’t do that.Bless her heart… She was adorable.

So see, the common good we all build together. Sometimes through very very big efforts. Particularly when I think of how people who have really nothing put up with many of us,spoilt brats…( like me…)

 

[Ender]

Yet, Jesus himself made this a moral issue “when were you a stranger and we did not welcome you?”

You need to be able to distinguish the ends to which we should strive, which are in fact moral obligations, from the means used to attain them, which are merely practical judgments. There is nothing that Christ said, or that the church teaches, that instructs us on the policies we should adopt to address our immigration problems.

The church specifies objectives. She is completely silent on the best ways to attain them.

 

[Ender]

As long as your positions are inline with the broad teachings on the Church, then you are not sinning by disagreeing with them on a matter that is ultimately left to our prudential judgement.

I absolutely agree with this, and this is the only point I have been making. The thing is, however, if I don’t sin by disagreeing with a bishop, how can it be a moral issue? Moral questions have only one moral position, but if contrary positions are morally justifiable then the question cannot be a moral one.

 

[Ender]

The Bishops are using what’s called the First Amendment, they are using a legal channel…

No one has suggested that bishops don’t have the right to take political action, or to broadcast their political views just like everyone else. It’s just that it’s a bad idea for them to do so.

“By issuing policy statements on matters that lie beyond their specific competence, and that pertain rather to experts in secular disciplines, the bishops diminish their own credibility in speaking about matters with which they are specially charged as spiritual leaders of the church.” (Cardinal Dulles)

 

[graciew]

if I don’t sin by disagreeing with a bishop, how can it be a moral issue?

Because you may both be working and striving in the best interest( not position…) of the people in question , or to solve the problem ,in good conscience trying to please God very honestly and differ in the particular steps to attain an objective.
The problem of the people who flee and need help pose a moral issue.
Two more sources;
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/

http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedi...ben-xvi_enc_20090629_caritas-in-veritate.html

Now when we disqualify each other, then the problem isn t even addressed…
Visually, it helps imagining we are sitting together at a round table . We define the problem and place it in the middle of the table. Now we all work together to solve that problem.

 

[Ender]

Because you may both be working and striving in the best interest( not position…) of the people in question , or to solve the problem ,in good conscience trying to please God very honestly and differ in the particular steps to attain an objective.

This is precisely why this is not a moral issue: opposing positions are both acceptable and morally indistinguishable. If it really was a moral question only one position would be acceptable.

The problem of the people who flee and need help pose a moral issue.

It is a serious issue, perhaps even a life or death issue, but it is not a moral issue because there is no moral choice to be made. I am required to do what I think is best for everyone involved, and that is an entirely practical concern.

The problem with calling this a moral issue is that the practical aspects of differing proposals are not even considered because what is being judged is not the position, but the people who hold it. The argument is never “Your proposal is bad because of A, B, and C”, but always comes down to “You’re evil so we can simply dismiss your proposal.” Regrettably, having bishops arguing that immigration is a moral issue simply compounds this problem.

 

[Sarcelle]

The root cause are the drug cartels and let’s face it, these cartels wouldn’t exist if the demand for drugs isn’t there.

 

[SeekSalvation]

Might I remind you that Joseph was not the Father of Jesus.

 

[Theo520]

The root cause are the drug cartels and let’s face it, these cartels wouldn’t exist if the demand for drugs isn’t there.

We certainly don’t help it be enabling the issue.

The root cause of sex trafficking is lust. We don’t solve the abuse of underage sex workers by legalizing the whole shebang.

 

[Theo520]

Might I remind you that Joseph was not the Father of Jesus.

Might you expand your comment to make your point? I’m confused.

I’m pretty sure Joseph was considered his parent/legal guardian by today’s nomenclature.

 

[Sarcelle]

I merely stated that drug cartels are the root cause nowhere did I state anything about legalizing drugs.

If we want to stabilize these countries, the drug cartels would have to be dealt with.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I blame both the drug cartels (and in turn the users of the drugs) and the US employers who hire people as a source of cheap labor and make little or no attempt to help them become legal. All of the work I see being done to help the immigrants in my area is coming from either charities, pro bono legal aid, and/ or churches especially the Catholic Church. Where are the owners of the large farms and businesses employing these people?

 

[Sarcelle]

You have a point.

There wouldn’t be a supply if there were no demand.

I mean demand for both drugs and cheap exploitable labor.

 

[niceatheist]

Am I my brother’s keeper?

 

[Theo520]

Am I my brother’s keeper?

I explained what I do, feel free to comment on what I said, or say what you do.

I’m not your decision ball

 

[SeekSalvation]

In Is 11, Isaiah refers on Jesse, the father of David - in who’s line Jesus was according to the Bible. Though there is of course no real „bloodline“ of Jesus, as He is God in God, light from light, true God from true God.

This explains it best. Seen this on another thread.

 

[graciew]

This is precisely why this is not a moral issue: opposing positions are both acceptable and morally indistinguishable

No, Ender.
That there are persons being displaced by war, or gangs, of hunger or violence and suffering and are asking for help when their dignity and humanity have been deeply affected this alone requires an ethical response, and speaks about a deeply immoral reality: exclusion, violence, inequality and so on.
How a society, a group , a person, responds may or may be moral,
Aside from that ,one may consider if the response if feasible, solves the problem and is acceptable.
And say all together working in the best interest of all the persons involved.
In general, not thinking of any case in particular.
Maybe in your mind you are speaking of a concrete case, I am speaking in general.
Sorry if I am not understanding you and you have two particular concrete moral responses in mind about a concrete case.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

The church specifies objectives. She is completely silent on the best ways to attain them.

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor, the oppressed, widows orphans and refugees.

A review of ‘The Poverty and Justice Bible’ – Grace + Truth

 

[RealisticCatholic]

Be Catholic first, not Republican or Democrat.

If this is upsetting to you, maybe consider if it is you that is more focused on politics – instead of the bishops.

Fact is, if you’re going to take any moral stance, you’re likely to align with a political viewpoint. Why? because in the USA, the two parties often try to distinguish themselves from each other with contrary positions. Pick any issue, and often you can divide it between Democrats and Republicans.

This means that Catholic moral principles will sometimes LOOK “more Republican” (say abortion) or LOOK “more Democrat” (like with immigration).

 

[Ender]

That there are persons being displaced by war, or gangs, of hunger or violence and suffering and are asking for help when their dignity and humanity have been deeply affected this alone requires an ethical response

Yes, it does require an ethical response, but the church is silent on exactly what that response should be. The precise form of that response is a judgment; there is no doctrine that specifies what should be done, which is why this is not a moral issue. Also keep in mind that what you are describing is a refugee. Most of the illegals coming to this country do not fall into that category, and it is misleading to put everyone into that group. The vast majority come here to improve themselves economically. They are not refugees fleeing violence, and the “ethical response” will be entirely different depending on which category they fit.