"Justice for Immigrants" and USCCB

[Ender]

The Bible has around two thousand passages that refer to justice for the poor, the oppressed, widows orphans and refugees.

Which passage answers the question of whether or not we should build a wall?

Be Catholic first, not Republican or Democrat.

Being Catholic does not mean that competing positions cannot be morally indistinguishable. It is a serious mistake to believe that all Catholics will come to the same prudential conclusion about the best way to solve political issues.

The Church does not have technical solutions to offer and does not claim “to interfere in any way in the politics of States.” (BXVI, Caritas in veritate)

This means that Catholic moral principles will sometimes LOOK “more Republican” (say abortion) or LOOK “more Democrat” (like with immigration).

Here’s the difference: the church has a specific, doctrinal position on abortion which directly condemns the position taken by the Democrat party. The church has no position at all on any of the specific immigration proposals taken by either party.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Which passage answers the question of whether or not we should build a wall?

The Greatest Commandments; love your neighbour as you love yourself.

 

[Ender]

The Greatest Commandments; love your neighbour as you love yourself.

Nonsense, this is a generic command that says nothing whatever about how to address specific questions. If it was true that this meant countries could not build walls to keep non-citizens out then Vatican City has surely violated it inasmuch as it is entirely surrounded by walls and armed guards.

This is exactly my point: there is nothing in any church teaching that tells us how specific problems are to be resolved. We are to work toward the best solution. That we honestly try to find what is best is all that is required of us, but there is nothing immoral about reaching different conclusions.

The effort to define questions such as immigration as moral issues really reduces to a willingness to condemn not so much contrary proposals as the people who hold them. It is not the proposals that are found to be immoral, it is the intention of those who profess them that is (rashly and uncharitably) judged.

 

[tgGodsway]

I’m sure they are liberal Democrats.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Nonsense, this is a generic command that says nothing whatever about how to address specific questions.

All the law of God hangs and depends on the two greatest commandments. So you ask the question, how does building a wall show my love for God and my neighbours?

If the boot was on the other foot, and you were one of these desperate immigrants with a family, would you want someone to show you compassion?

 

[Ender]

All the law of God hangs and depends on the two greatest commandments. So you ask the question, how does building a wall show my love for God and my neighbours?

If Vatican City can have a wall and armed guards then what is the argument against our having the same? They are under the same commandments as apply to us.

If the boot was on the other foot, and you were one of these desperate immigrants with a family, would you want someone to show you compassion?

This is what I referred to in my previous post: you are judging me as having a lack of compassion rather than judging the arguments for and against building a wall. The church teaches that countries have a legitimate right to control who enters their territory. What makes a wall an illegitimate way to exercise that control?

 

[Mi_Rose]

The Vatican City walls were built in the ninth century. Maybe the Church has learned since then they do not work. They were built to keep pirates out. They didn’t work then.

 

[TheLittleLady]

If Vatican City can have a wall and armed guards then what is the argument against our having the same?

I’ve been to Vatican City. The border is simply a line on the ground.

Yes, there are walls around some of the gardens or buildings, these are very common around homes and little courtyards and buildings in Italy.

 

[Theo520]

That there are persons being displaced by war, or gangs, of hunger or violence and suffering

I urge you to read up on the UN Agreement for refugees which has been signed by virtually all developed countries. It lays out who should be considered a refugee and also when they are not a refugee. Every sad story does not a refugee make.

Most people invading our borders remain the responsibility of their home governments, they don’t qualify as refugees, for good reasons.

 

[CTBcin]

US Bishops are also working to overturn abortion laws, human trafficking, discrimination against the disabled, and on and on. Working for a just society is not a “one trick pony”, there are many affronts to Catholic Social Doctrine in our world.

You may want to read this, lesser known, compendium of doctrine

Agreed. Immigration isn’t some “liberal” cause that the US bishops are getting on board with anymore than pro-life and marriage are “conservative” causes. It’s an issue of justice, and the bishops transcend party politics.

That said, I don’t believe in open boarders; but, I do think we as a country ought to seriously reconsider how we treat the immigration issue.

 

[CTBcin]

I have a cousin who came illegally, she was one of those dreamers, she actually married her high school sweetheart to gain legal status, then she went to college and then law school, the funny thing is she married a guy who eventually became a cop! So even though they are still married and got married through the church 10 years later, the actions originally were illegal. I think she should be disbarred and her husband fired. The church hired her as an attorney. The Catholic Church is crooked.

You must be a lot of fun at family get-togethers.

 

[Theo520]

Any hard numbers? (Why in the world did I bother asking…)

I can’t force you to read or do you own research, but the facts support my general claim.

Here’s some for Europe.

Four out of five migrants are NOT from Syria

The EU logged 213,000 arrivals in April, May and June but only 44,000 of them were fleeing the Syrian civil war.

www.dailymail.co.uk

We don’t have a war south of our border so only those fleeing govt persecution would qualify as refugees. The exception being people fleeing natural disasters, and we’ve taken in many a refugee following devastation in Haiti etc.

Learn your topic.

 

[ioannes_pius]

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Ender:

If Vatican City can have a wall and armed guards then what is the argument against our having the same?

I’ve been to Vatican City. The border is simply a line on the ground.

Yes, there are walls around some of the gardens or buildings, these are very common around homes and little courtyards and buildings in Italy.

What? They have walls around their homes and gardens? Why?

 

[joyfulandactive]

It’s common in many parts of Europe, including where we lived in central-west Germany. These homes are often hundreds of years old. I think it stems from time periods of frequent wars and invasions. Both Italy and Germany only became nation states about 150 years ago. Before that they were made up of numerous city-states, principalities and the like.

As you were.

 

[otjm]

You are presuming that the people entering illegally are refugees. Some might qualify under that term depending upon who is doing the definition of the word “refugee”; however, there is a process to apply for refugee status and it is not described as using a 'coyote" to sneak you across the border.

The term “refugee” does not apply to people who have illegally crossed the border, been sent back, and come back again. Nor does it apply to any number of other criminals seeking to cross. The same can be applied to MS 13, the Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, Los Zetas. Surenos, and anyone part of or associated with any of the cartels in Central or South America.

 

[graciew]

If you have been reading my posts and the documents posted, you would realize all I am doing is posting what the Church teaches and not getting involved in your wall, or analyzing any concrete issue other than posting how the Church sees inmigratiin/ migration issues.
And you may very well infer ( better say, read in the links posted)that morality is not restricted to the receiving countries but for those countries that make conditions impossible for people to live with minimum dignity and are in every possible way expulsive.
And let me tell you, that Bishops also do their part in such places, pointing out, denouncing continuously poverty, lack of the minimum , and all what makes people suffer and affect families and everyone deeply.
And that is what they have to do, because it isn’t t indifference nor ignorance what will solve problems.
I know the agreements, as what makes somebody qualify for what.
I didn’t specify any category, nor applied it.
But I am continuously going back to Social Doctrine,and why the Church gets involved with migrants.
Not politics.

 

[Ender]

I’ve been to Vatican City. The border is simply a line on the ground.

Yes, there are walls around some of the gardens or buildings, these are very common around homes and little courtyards and buildings in Italy.

The border you refer to is the entry to St. Peter’s square which is pretty much a public area. The rest of the city is completely surrounded by a wall that would impress Donald Trump. The point is simply this: access to all but St. Peter’s square is strictly controlled.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[TheLittleLady]

That photo is the side of a building, looks like a Church in fact. Notice the shape?

 

[Theo520]

I feel you are conflating legitimate reasons for refugee status with faux one.

We have gang violence and spouse abuse in the US, it doesn’t qualify us for refugee status in Canada. If it did perhaps much of Chicago would move a bit north.

Such life problems are the responsibility of the local church and governance, they are not all given a lucky ticket to move countries and use better welfare.

Send your money to the Mexican Bishops if you feel they need help combating poverty. I focus on disadvantaged citizens in my own city, which is what Subsidiarity demands of me.