Either the use of walls to control access to a nation’s territory is moral or it is not. If it is not then what justifies the Vatican walls? If it is then there is no moral argument against the US erecting walls. I am addressing solely the morality of controlling access by the use of physical barriers. Is it or is it not moral?
yeah, including those pesky Israelites…
Salvation history is full of stories of israel killing to gain control of land…all with the approval of God.Eric_Hyom:
That is what is bothering me. There is a commandment: Thou shalt not steal. Should American Catholics just forget about this commandment when it comes to living on land stolen from the Native Americans? If you possess any stolen item, whether it be a car, a watch, a diamond ring or a piece of land that you know has been stolen from someone at the point of a gun, is it OK for a Catholic to refuse to return this stolen item to the rightful owner or to his heirs?
My parents, when they immigrated (not to the US) were not refugees. Although they were finding life in communist Eastern Europe difficult.graciew:
I urge you to read up on the UN Agreement for refugees which has been signed by virtually all developed countries. It lays out who should be considered a refugee and also when they are not a refugee. Every sad story does not a refugee make.
Most people invading our borders remain the responsibility of their home governments, they don’t qualify as refugees, for good reasons.
Surely the question is considerably more nuanced than that.CTBcin:
Either the use of walls to control access to a nation’s territory is moral or it is not. If it is not then what justifies the Vatican walls? If it is then there is no moral argument against the US erecting walls. I am addressing solely the morality of controlling access by the use of physical barriers. Is it or is it not moral?
Personally, I am opposed to murdering innocent children and their parents and then stealing their property and the land that belongs to them. I think it is better not to go around murdering people and stealing their land. I am for peace and for peaceful means of settling conflicts. I hope for tranquility, internal and external calm, and good and respectful relations among all peoples. I was hoping that the Bible would back me up on that, but it seems that you have indicated otherwise.
It is known as “elder brother syndrome” and Christ warned us against this sort of thought. In fact he warned us more than once, with the parable of the Prodigal Son and with the parable of the late workers in the vineyard.
The relationship between God and the Children of Israel in the Old Testament is quite different than the relationship after the Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Christ. The things that were allowed under the old covenant are far different than the law of charity and mercy.
No, it is not. Either walls are moral or they are immoral. Whether they are a good idea, not worth the money, or ineffective are prudential questions, but that is a different issue. Throughout this entire discussion I have focused solely on whether immigration is a moral issue, and I have tried to do that by addressing specific proposals.
This is the mindset I referred to earlier, and what happens when a practical issue is perceived to involve moral choices. It is not the opposing proposals that are rejected as unworkable, it is the opponents themselves who are dismissed as immoral.
Unfortunately I do not ascribe to the notion of black and white thinking on such matters. I can envision circumstances in which building a wall would be immoral, and I can envision circumstances under which building a wall would be moral.niceatheist:
No, it is not. Either walls are moral or they are immoral. Whether they are a good idea, not worth the money, or ineffective are prudential questions, but that is a different issue. Throughout this entire discussion I have focused solely on whether immigration is a moral issue, and I have tried to do that by addressing specific proposals.
Unless someone can identify a particular moral choice that faces us then it is not reasonable to call immigration a moral issue. Building a wall or not seems pretty clearly to be a prudential judgment, not a moral choice. I believe every other specific question related to immigration is equally prudential.
Has the Bible changed its teaching on that?
I agree with this, but are these only nice words, with no one actually believing them, or do American Catholics actually believe this - that they should turn the other cheek when someone slaps you on the right cheek? If American Catholics actually believe this, then why have so many (not all though) supported the horrific bombing of Japan where so many children were killed and burned to death. Would it have been better to turn the other cheek and pray for peace when Japan bombed Pearl Harbor? Or at least attempt through diplomacy to stop this madness.
I believe them. Most Christians I know believe these words.
Do you have some statistics or reports that I can study?
There is a Catholic teaching called the “Just War Doctrine”.
The problem with homelessness in the richest country on earth is very complex. In many places there are services available, however, the people have mental illness or addictions that will not allow them to cooperate with the resources. It is very sad and frustrating.
I was only going by what I read on these Catholic forums. I certainly agree with Pope Francis on the condemnation of the bombing of Japan. But i did look it up:
The Just War doctrine does not involve turning the other cheek, does it? Turning the other cheek to be slapped is more or less a pacifist position, something like what is advocated by the Quakers or the Amish or the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Yes, it is a good and decent thing to do and is something we should all consider. However, I am not sure that it is the best thing that can be done. American city code inspectors have been known to shut down food pantries where people donate their time to give hot food to the hungry living on the street. These American code inspectors can harass and give tickets and make problems for people wanting to help the poor.