Justification by Faith vs The Sacrament of Confession

[Randy_Carson]

John 20.

There is no reason to believe that Mary and Mary, among others, were not present.

**CONCERNING THE TEACHING CONTAINED IN ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS **
RESPONSUM AD DUBIUM
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
October 28, 1995
Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.

Rome, from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, on the Feast of the Apostles SS. Simon and Jude, October 28, 1995.

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect

Tarcisio Bertone
Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli

+++

This ends the debate on the ordination of women. If the Church had EVER understood Jesus to be ordaining his mom, then obviously, things would have turned out differently.

 

[Atemi]

I am sorry, Randy, if you took me for someone who marched in lockstep with Rome.

 

[Atemi]

Hey I thought Sola Scriptura does not accept anything not stated in the Bible?

It seems you do not know what Sola Scriptura means.

This is not in the Bible (and many more, don’t be ridiculous) and yet you let this fly in your face.

The poster erroneously said that this was “ONLY” given to the Apostles.

That is not what the Word of God says.

Luther, Calvin, Wesley and the rest of Sola Scriptura authors must now be turning in their graves!

I do not serve Luther, Calvin, Wesley, or the bishop of Rome.

I serve Jesus Christ.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I am sorry, Randy, if you took me for someone who marched in lockstep with Rome.

Of course not. As you hold to the doctrine of *sola *scriptura, I take you for someone who marches completely to the beat of his own drummer.

 

[Chancellare]

It seems you do not know what Sola Scriptura means.

Ah!
What is YOUR argument for Sola Scriptura?
Who knows you could convince me!

 

[Atemi]

Of course not. As you hold to the doctrine of *sola *scriptura, I take you for someone who marches completely to the beat of his own drummer.

I know that holding God’s very Words to be the most authoritative voice in the universe is alien to you, but maybe you can take some time to understand why God’s people would actually think that way…

 

[Atemi]

Ah!
What is YOUR argument for Sola Scriptura?
Who knows you could convince me!

Do you not hold God’s Words to be the greatest authority in every universe and dimension?

Please cite and quote for me some of God’s Words that are out of His inspired and Divinely breathed Scriptures, and I’ll take a look.

 

[Chancellare]

Do you not hold God’s Words to be the greatest authority in every universe and dimension?

Please cite and quote for me some of God’s Words that are out of His inspired and Divinely breathed Scriptures, and I’ll take a look.

You are starting with the oft repeated “Word of God” fallacy. This does not fly here because:

You assume like a good student of your denomination that “word of God” equals 'bible". Tell me which passage in the Bible using “word of God” phrase and I will tell you that it will contextually not refer to the pages you are holding but to Christ, the Law, God’s creative utterances and apostolic and prophetic preaching.

Please cite your verses and I will tell you that’s not it.

 

[Atemi]

You are starting with the oft repeated “Word of God” fallacy. This does not fly here

I know if often does not among Catholics. This is unfortunate…to put it very lightly.

You assume like a good student of your denomination that “word of God” equals 'bible".

First of all, what is my “denomination”? Have we met?

Secondly, your own church also teaches that the Scriptures are indeed the Word of God.

CCC 104 "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”

“For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and the force and power in the word of God is so great that it stands as the support and energy of the Church, the strength of faith for her sons, the food of the soul, the pure and everlasting source of spiritual life. Consequently these words are perfectly applicable to Sacred Scripture: “For the word of God is living and active” (Heb. 4:12) and “it has power to build you up and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified” (Acts 20:32; see 1 Thess. 2:13). (DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON DIVINE REVELATION DEI VERBUM SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965”, Chapter VI, Section 21)

Please at least be in communion with your own church before trying to correct me.

Tell me which passage in the Bible using “word of God” phrase and I will tell you that it will contextually not refer to the pages you are holding

Hebrews 4:12 as mentioned above by your Pope.

Please just quote for us some other God-breathed Words of His that are outside of Sacred Scripture and let us take a look.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Atemi:

Please just quote for us some other God-breathed Words of His that are outside of Sacred Scripture and let us take a look.

The other is the Church, which is the Pillar and Bulwark of Truth. John the Apostle said that there other sayings of Jesus not written and where do we find them. We find these Traditions in the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states,

97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.

80 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.” Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.

95 “It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.”

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, “the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.” “The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer.”

 

[Atemi]

Thanks anyway

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Please tell me exactly where in Scripture it says that the Word of God is found only in Scripture. I do believe the actual living “Word of God” is Jesus Christ–and He did not found a ‘book’ but a Church. Scripture tells us so. Isn’t the Holy Spirit God? Doesn’t Scripture say that He will ‘guide us into all truth’? Then isn’t “the word of God” in the Spirit as well?

 

[Chancellare]

CCC 104 "In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”. “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”

Please at least be in communion with your own church before trying to correct me.

I was not arguing about the Sacred Scripture as contemplated in the CCC 104 for indeed that is the stand of CC. This teaching was arrived at by CC as the giver of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, not the other way around.

In your haste you did not address what I was asking:
“Tell me which passage in the Bible using “word of God” phrase and I will tell you that it will contextually not refer to the pages you are holding but to Christ, the Law, God’s creative utterances and apostolic and prophetic preaching”.

But I’m sure you’re main point is to prove that Scriptures is all you need to hear the Word of God.

Sadly, I was disappointed that you had to quote CCC but did nothing to prove Sola Scriptura which was the object of your arguments.

So to cut the hair-splitting, please cite to us where is Sola Scriptura in the Bible?

 

[Chancellare]

I do not serve Luther, Calvin, Wesley, or the bishop of Rome.

I did not say that.

But in fairness to them:
Without them you won’t be there insisting on a doctrine they invented.

 

[Atemi]

Please just quote for us some other God-breathed Words of His that are outside of Sacred Scripture and let us take a look.

What is so hard about this?

If you don’t have them, why do you keep telling others to obey them?

 

[Chancellare]

Please just quote for us some other God-breathed Words of His that are outside of Sacred Scripture and let us take a look.

That is your contention. Why ask someone else to quote your reference to support your contention? Why don’t you go ahead yourself and “let us take a look”?

Besides I was the first one to ask for your proof of Sola Scriptura.

 

[Atemi]

That is your contention. Why ask someone else to quote your reference to support your contention? Why don’t you go ahead yourself and “let us take a look”?

Besides I was the first one to ask for your proof of Sola Scriptura.

Actually, though I am sure you are unaware, you gave me all the proof I need to know that the Scriptures are the greatest doctrinal and moral authority anywhere.

 

[Chancellare]

Actually, though I am sure you are unaware, you gave me all the proof I need to know that the Scriptures are the greatest doctrinal and moral authority anywhere.

So that’s it for Sola Scriptura?

 

[Atemi]

So that’s it for Sola Scriptura?

You have nothing else to offer…and neither does anyone else.

I go with God’s Words…every time.

 

[LilyM]

Please just quote for us some other God-breathed Words of His that are outside of Sacred Scripture and let us take a look.

What is so hard about this?

If you don’t have them, why do you keep telling others to obey them?

I worship the God-breathed WORD incarnate, Christ himself, and the written AND UNWRITTEN teachings that he passed on to his Church (not churches plural, not each and every individual who claims to follow him) through the Apostles and they to their followers and on down the centuries.

I’d say that’s a much more important than any misinformed clod picking up their poorly translated and retranslated, butchered and mangled version of scripture and thinking they know it all.

John himself said not everything that Jesus said and did was written down, how much less is this true of the Apostles! But we know what they taught anyway, it has been preserved through those who learned it from them - for example from St Ignatius of Antioch and St Polycarp who were disciples from St John.

Let me ask you, where ANYWHERE does Christ mention that all truth will be preserved in the Bible and the Bible only? Does he say a word about *any *written records of his truth? NO, all truth is preserved through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and through the CHURCH, which is its pillar and bulwark (as it says in Timothy). NOT Scripture alone divorced from the Church’s definitive teaching.