Justification by Faith vs The Sacrament of Confession

[VociMike]

I would say guilt as in not being fully forgiven as scripture does teach. Confessing one’s sins is what scripture does speak of as well, but with the full knowledge that God forgives the sin and it is fully forgiven, no left over guilt.

Catholics know we are fully forgiven. We are even warned not to brood over sins that have been confessed and forgiven. We are not to hold on to the guilt of our sins, but we are to acknowledge the guilt of our sins. I think you may be subject to a caricature of Catholic teaching on this matter.

BTW, during Holy Week, leading up to Good Friday, do you ever ponder the part you played in crucifying Christ? Do you think it is suitable for a Christian to ponder this?

 

[Chancellare]

I suppose this is really where I must disagree, first with your interpretation (I should say the magisterium’s) of scripture and secondly recognizing when scripture speaks to something in a crystal clear manner such as faith alone as Paul did clearly in Romans. If faith alone were not true, then how could a man who sinned graveously his entire life be saved just breaths before death by our one and true savior himself? Jesus said today you will be with me in paradise, not if you say a set number of Hail Mary’s and such maybe you will make it through purgatory. Jesus’ actions alone prove scripture as being a person justified by faith alone.

I hope you are not throwing away the other side of the coin in the scripture that warns about faith without deeds as “dead”. Are you?

 

[Flying_Bison]

If scripture tells us that we are justified by faith and that one must accept the kingdom of God as a child would accept a gift, then why does the Catholic church emphasize one attempting to recall each and every sin committed at a sacremental confession? If it is by faith in the sacrifice that Christ made for our sins that cleanses us, then why the scrutiny in confession??

The episle of James states otherwise, as does Jesus.

Jesus gives the Apostles the ability to bind and loose and to forgive sin. Why forgive sin if it doesn’t matter

Jesus’ sacrifice saves all, but that means that we have to live accordingly. We can loose that salvation. Jesus tell the Prostitute to avoid Sin NOT sin all you want you believe in so you are saved.

Judas believed in Jesus, is he in heaven or will he be held accountable for his sin. By your rational he is saved already, his sins are of no concern.

The Faith talked about in Romans is contrasted against works of the Mosaic law specifically circumcision. It was never meant to say believe and that’s it.

 

[Linkowski]

The episle of James states otherwise, as does Jesus.

Jesus gives the Apostles the ability to bind and loose and to forgive sin. Why forgive sin if it doesn’t matter

Jesus’ sacrifice saves all, but that means that we have to live accordingly. We can loose that salvation. Jesus tell the Prostitute to avoid Sin NOT sin all you want you believe in so you are saved.

Judas believed in Jesus, is he in heaven or will he be held accountable for his sin. By your rational he is saved already, his sins are of no concern.

The Faith talked about in Romans is contrasted against works of the Mosaic law specifically circumcision. It was never meant to say believe and that’s it.

Justification is a declaration that the sinner is now legally righteous as opposed to being condemned. When a person is born again, they are in Christ and dead to the law…and no longer can be imputed with sin…

Romans 7:1-6 KJV 1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) **how that the law hath dominion (jurisdiction) over a man as long as he liveth? **2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, **ye also are become dead to the law **by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Here, he is simply making an analogy to marriage law to illustrate the single point he has just mentioned, namely, that no law has jurisdiction over a person after he is dead. This passage has absolutely nothing to say about divorce and cannot legitimately be used as an argument from silence to teach that divorce is never justified for a Christian and, consequently, that only the death of a spouse gives the right to remarry.

Paul is calling attention to the fact that marriage laws are binding only as long as both partners are alive. Being joined to another man while her husband is alive makes a woman an adulteress, an offender against the law. But to be joined in marriage to another man after her husband dies is perfectly legal and acceptable. A widow is absolutely free from the law that bound her to her former husband.

It is at this point that Paul begins his spiritual teaching in the passage. Just as the death of her husband frees a woman from the marriage that had bound them together, he declares, you (that is, Christians) were made to die to the Mosaic Law. Were made to die translates the aorist tense of thanatoō, which emphasizes the completeness and finality of death. The verb is also passive, indicating that believers do not die naturally or put themselves to death but have been made to die by the divine act of God in response to faith in His Son.
Though it was a result of Old Testament salvation by grace, obedience to the law was never a means of salvation (Rom. 3:20). The law has power only to condemn men to death for their sin (6:23), but no power to redeem them from it. Paul has already pointed out that God’s grace extended by faith in Jesus Christ brings death to and freedom from sin (Rom. 6:3–7). He now declares that faith in Him also brings death to the Law and consequently freedom from the law’s penalty (Macarthur).

Hence the scripture that shortly follows…

Romans 8:1 KJV 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:33 KJV 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

This justification is a declaration calling one righteous and free from the penalty for sin…

Also…Judas did not believe in Christ - he is called unclean and was not included as “chosen”

John 13:10-11 KJV 10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

John 13:18 KJV 18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Judas was not one of the elect.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Justification is a declaration that the sinner is now legally righteous as opposed to being condemned. When a person is born again, they are in Christ and dead to the law…and no longer can be imputed with sin…

Well, that is certainly one perspective.

Here’s another:

Both Protestants and Catholics can agree that the basic meaning of the verb “to justify” is “to make righteous.” When we are justified, we receive a righteousness that we did not have before. Namely, we receive the righteousness of Christ or the righteousness of God.But the two sides disagree about what the phrase “the righteousness of Christ” means. And the phrase itself is ambiguous. On the one hand, it could mean the righteousness which belongs to Christ as his own, personal possession. On the other hand, it could mean the righteousness which comes from Christ. Protestants commonly say that the phrase means the former, while Catholics say it means the latter.

Therefore, while the two sides can agree in saying that when God justifies us he makes us righteous, they often disagree about the kind of righteousness we receive in justification.

To explain their common claim that when we are justified we receive the exact, personal righteousness of Christ, Protestants employ a legal metaphor. They say that when we are justified God declares us righteous, just as a judge declares a person innocent of having committed a crime. They therefore often say that when we are justified we receive a legal or forensic righteousness because God simply declares us to be righteous before the courts of heaven.

Catholics go beyond this and say that God gives us more than merely forensic righteousness—that the righteousness he gives us is more than a legal fiction, more than just an accounting procedure. Instead, when God justifies us he actually constitutes us in righteousness. He discharges our debt to the courts of heaven so that we are restored to a state of righteousness. We are now innocent, our penalty having been paid by Christ, so that we now no longer owe any debt to God’s eternal justice. Jesus paid it all. There may still be temporal factors to our sins that we have to deal with, but Christ fully paid the eternal price of our sins, and so we are restored to righteousness before God.

To explain how this goes beyond the legal fiction view of righteousness, Catholics sometimes use metaphysical language, which conceives of guilt and innocence as objectively real properties which cling to our souls just like colors cling to the surface of objects. When we sin, we become guilty and our souls grow dark and dirty before God. But when we are justified, God purifies us and our souls become brilliant and clean before him. Guilt and innocence, righteousness and unrighteousness, are therefore conceived of as properties of our souls—properties which change depending on our sins and our subsequent justification by God.

From Justification in Catholic Teaching by James Akin

 

[Linkowski]

Well, that is certainly one perspective.

Here’s another:

Both Protestants and Catholics can agree that the basic meaning of the verb “to justify” is “to make righteous.” When we are justified, we receive a righteousness that we did not have before. Namely, we receive the righteousness of Christ or the righteousness of God.But the two sides disagree about what the phrase “the righteousness of Christ” means. And the phrase itself is ambiguous. On the one hand, it could mean the righteousness which belongs to Christ as his own, personal possession. On the other hand, it could mean the righteousness which comes from Christ. Protestants commonly say that the phrase means the former, while Catholics say it means the latter.

Therefore, while the two sides can agree in saying that when God justifies us he makes us righteous, they often disagree about the kind of righteousness we receive in justification.

To explain their common claim that when we are justified we receive the exact, personal righteousness of Christ, Protestants employ a legal metaphor. They say that when we are justified God declares us righteous, just as a judge declares a person innocent of having committed a crime. They therefore often say that when we are justified we receive a legal or forensic righteousness because God simply declares us to be righteous before the courts of heaven.

Catholics go beyond this and say that God gives us more than merely forensic righteousness—that the righteousness he gives us is more than a legal fiction, more than just an accounting procedure. Instead, when God justifies us he actually constitutes us in righteousness. He discharges our debt to the courts of heaven so that we are restored to a state of righteousness. We are now innocent, our penalty having been paid by Christ, so that we now no longer owe any debt to God’s eternal justice. Jesus paid it all. There may still be temporal factors to our sins that we have to deal with, but Christ fully paid the eternal price of our sins, and so we are restored to righteousness before God.

To explain how this goes beyond the legal fiction view of righteousness, Catholics sometimes use metaphysical language, which conceives of guilt and innocence as objectively real properties which cling to our souls just like colors cling to the surface of objects. When we sin, we become guilty and our souls grow dark and dirty before God. But when we are justified, God purifies us and our souls become brilliant and clean before him. Guilt and innocence, righteousness and unrighteousness, are therefore conceived of as properties of our souls—properties which change depending on our sins and our subsequent justification by God.

From Justification in Catholic Teaching by James Akin

I can answer this clearly and will do so when I have the time.

 

[Pax]

Down playing the importance of confessing our sins is to down play God’s word revealed in scripture. The Creator knows his creatures and he knows what we need and what is right and proper for us.

Read Genesis. When Adam and Eve fell, they hid themselves from God. God asked them what they had done even though he knew that they had eaten from the tree. Likewise, when Cain killed Abel, God asked Cain where his brother was and what he had done even though God already knew that Cain had murdered his brother. Even from the beginning God wanted man to confess.

Read Leviticus 5:5-6. In this passage we see a clear example of God requiring the sinner to confess and bring his sin offering to the priest for him to make atonement on his behalf.

In the New Testament we have a number of verses that refer to the authority to forgive sins. In Matthew 9:6-8, we read “But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins”–he then said to the paralytic --“Rise, take up your bed and go home.” And he rose and went home. When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men." Notice how scripture says that such authority had been given to men. This is significant and is not merely a coincidence. This is the inspired word of God.

The question of authority and power to forgive sin is given obviously to Jesus and this is further affirmed in Matthew 28:18 where we are told, "And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

So just how is this authority transfered to the apostles and their successors? In John 20:21-23 "Jesus said to them, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” This is an incredible set of verses. They are rich in meaning and power. Notice that Jesus sends the apostles in the same way that the Father sent Him. The Father sent Jesus with all power and authority which included the power to forgive sins. So also Jesus sends the apostles. Jesus breathes on the apostles and says, “receive the Holy Spirit.” There is only one other time in all of scripture where God breathes on man, and that is in Genesis when God breathes life into Adam. This is a significant moment in the upper room and it is at this moment that Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven: if you retain the sins of any they are retained.”

Later in the new testament scriptures we find additional verses that speak to confession and reconciliation. The most significant are the following:

2 Corinthians 5: 17-20
Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

James 5:14-15
Is any among you sick? Let him call for the presbyters [priests] of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (“presbyter” is the root word from which we get the term priest)

James 5:16
Therefore confess you sins to one another….

Matthew 18:18
Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (In Jewish culture and faith the power to bind and loose carries a juridical dimension and has application to the forgiveness of sin)

 

[Pax]

Forensic or infused righteousness? Hmm…seems to me that scripture is pretty clear about God’s purposes, intentions, and the power of his grace.

In the OT we have a solid prefiguring of baptism and God’s purpose that can be directly compared to baptism in the NT. Check this out.

Ezk 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Compare this to ACTS 2:37-38

Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and to the other apostles, “Brothers, what should we do?” Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins may be forgiven; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Going statement for statement we see an unmistakable pattern and prefiguring in Ezekiel and it is clear that God will use water to cleanse us (forgive our sins), that he will change our hearts (and they were cut to the heart), and that he will put a new spirit within us(we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.)

A couple of other verses in the NT speak to this as well. For example:

TITUS 3:4-8
but when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit,
—this is water baptism as prefigured in the OT and seen in Acts 2:37-38

1 PETER 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
—Peter uses the analogy of Noah to emphasize that this is water baptism, and he clearly states that baptism saves you.

And why does the Father do all of this? Paul tells us in Romans that it is “…to conform us to the image of his son[Jesus]” Conforming us to the image of Jesus is not merely a forensic action. This is truly to change the inner man.

 

[Atemi]

If scripture tells us that we are justified by faith and that one must accept the kingdom of God as a child would accept a gift, then why does the Catholic church emphasize one attempting to recall each and every sin committed at a sacremental confession? If it is by faith in the sacrifice that Christ made for our sins that cleanses us, then why the scrutiny in confession??

Your suspicions are indeed warranted.

Often a superior confession is merely recognizing the fact that you indeed sin, without a laundry list to display before God.

Christ specifically chose this as an example of a good confession:

Luk 18:13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, `O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God”

Christ regularly forgave sin without a confession of sin ever even being uttered, nevermind a list of “mortal sins” in hand.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I’m really sorry that you look at it that way. If you really and truly believe that God wishes you to be guilt ridden your entire life, than I think unfortunately you have missed the boat. Sin is certainly not to be soft peddled I do agree but again, what does scripture say?? Paul said that all have fallen short of the grace of God. Guilt doesn’t keep one from sinning, but keeps one from realizing the true joy of being forgiven.

You do realize that one lets go of his sin and guilt in the confessional. In confession, we have a 100% guarantee that we are forgiven of our sins, and we have guilt no more.

As for falling short of God’s grace, this is not a license to sin. We must strive for absolute holiness and perfection. As Christ said “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5,48). Part of becoming perfect is getting rid of the stain of sin in the Sacrament of Confession, which was established by Christ Himself.

 

[adrift]

Your suspicions are indeed warranted.

Often a superior confession is merely recognizing the fact that you indeed sin, without a laundry list to display before God.

Christ specifically chose this as an example of a good confession:

Luk 18:13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, `O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God”

Christ regularly forgave sin without a confession of sin ever even being uttered, nevermind a list of “mortal sins” in hand.

Jesus being God would know what sins were committed and the sorrow of those who committed them.
Priest cannot know what sins are committed until the person confesses them and expressed sorrow.

 

[Subrosa]

Not at all. I just believe that to attempt to recall every single that one may have committed from one confession period to another is really contradicting scripture. The emphasis should be on forgiveness and repentance, not guilt.

It seems to me that you are under some misconception concerning the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

The church admonishes us to have a sincere and faithful examination of conscience. We know what we must confess for we are asking forgiveness from Jesus.

Quotes from the Catechism…

**1454 **The reception of this sacrament ought to be prepared for by an *examination of conscience *made in the light of the Word of God. The passages best suited to this can be found in the Ten Commandments, the moral catechesis of the Gospels and the apostolic letters, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the apostolic teachings.

The days of being guilt ridden are over and have been since Vatican II. We are required to recall each and every sin that we have commited. What good would it do us to not confess a sin we have commited to Jesus? If we do not tell Him of it, how can we hold ourselves responsible for it?

How can a parent justify telling a child, “You are responsible!” if we do not practice the same? If a child is caught stealing, but stands in front of a parent and says “I didnt do it!”, what parent will not assign a harsher consequence to the action than would be had if the child simply had told the truth?

But, those sins that we do not truly recall can also be forgiven.

By mentioning these sins as “those I do not remember”, or some similar way, we are telling Christ of our true sorrow for having offended Him.

We are required to be sincerely sorry for those acts even without total recall. If you stop and think of it, this only makes sense.

**1456 **Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: "All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly."54
When Christ’s faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest, “for if the sick person is too ashamed to show his wound to the doctor, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know.”

Also, I don’t understand your precept that recalling sin is contrary to scripture. Could you explain it to me (us)?

Subrosa

 

[Linkowski]

When a person is justified, I pointed out on the previous page that they become dead to the law. Therefore, the law no longer has jurisdiction over them - they are pardoned by faith and the justice that they deserved (eternal death) was carried out on their Saviour almost 2,000 years ago. Justified is opposite of condemned…

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Justification is not a process but a past event for the elect one. It is presented as a past event.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, **having now been justified **by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, **having been **justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you **were justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It is a declaration of righteousness - condemnation is not a process, is it?? They are both used in the same context.

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

The unbelievers are condemned already as they are spiritually dead/yet alive to the law. Believers are justified as they are spiritually alive and dead to the law.

For the elect - justification - a declaration of righteousness is sure…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It is pardon that only comes, as I mentioned, on the basis of the justice that was carried out on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the root of the issue is this…since Catholics believe that you can lose your salvation, justification MUST be a process. For someone like myself, justification is an event, which is how scripture presents it. The practical righteousness imparted to the believer comes through the process of sanctification (not justification).

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Here is a question…will all those who have been foreknown/predestined (elect), be justified?? I think scripture teaches that clearly in Romans 8:30…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Confession of sin is necessary for a close walk with the Lord and are foot washings as described in John 13…

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

 

[Flying_Bison]

When a person is justified, I pointed out on the previous page that they become dead to the law. Therefore, the law no longer has jurisdiction over them - they are pardoned by faith and the justice that they deserved (eternal death) was carried out on their Saviour almost 2,000 years ago. Justified is opposite of condemned…

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Justification is not a process but a past event for the elect one. It is presented as a past event.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, **having now been justified **by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, **having been **justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you **were justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It is a declaration of righteousness - condemnation is not a process, is it?? They are both used in the same context.

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

The unbelievers are condemned already as they are spiritually dead/yet alive to the law. Believers are justified as they are spiritually alive and dead to the law.

For the elect - justification - a declaration of righteousness is sure…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It is pardon that only comes, as I mentioned, on the basis of the justice that was carried out on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the root of the issue is this…since Catholics believe that you can lose your salvation, justification MUST be a process. For someone like myself, justification is an event, which is how scripture presents it. The practical righteousness imparted to the believer comes through the process of sanctification (not justification).

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Here is a question…will all those who have been foreknown/predestined (elect), be justified?? I think scripture teaches that clearly in Romans 8:30…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Confession of sin is necessary for a close walk with the Lord and are foot washings as described in John 13…

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

 

[Randy_Carson]

When a person is justified, I pointed out on the previous page that they become dead to the law. Therefore, the law no longer has jurisdiction over them - they are pardoned by faith and the justice that they deserved (eternal death) was carried out on their Saviour almost 2,000 years ago. Justified is opposite of condemned…

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Justification is not a process but a past event for the elect one. It is presented as a past event.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, **having now been justified **by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, **having been **justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you **were justified **in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

It is a declaration of righteousness - condemnation is not a process, is it?? They are both used in the same context.

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

The unbelievers are condemned already as they are spiritually dead/yet alive to the law. Believers are justified as they are spiritually alive and dead to the law.

For the elect - justification - a declaration of righteousness is sure…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

It is pardon that only comes, as I mentioned, on the basis of the justice that was carried out on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think the root of the issue is this…since Catholics believe that you can lose your salvation, justification MUST be a process. For someone like myself, justification is an event, which is how scripture presents it. The practical righteousness imparted to the believer comes through the process of sanctification (not justification).

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Here is a question…will all those who have been foreknown/predestined (elect), be justified?? I think scripture teaches that clearly in Romans 8:30…

Romans 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Confession of sin is necessary for a close walk with the Lord and are foot washings as described in John 13…

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

So, according to your interpretation of Romans 8:30, it’s all past tense for every believer: they have all been predestined, called, justified, glorified.

Is there any aspect of salvation that is a future event in the life of a believer?

 

[Flying_Bison]

This verse slinging has got to stop.

1st off anybody who has a bible can see that there are lots of verses that contradict the explaination given verses above by the poster.

So

there are 2 explainations

1. Either the bible is error filled and contradicts itself

or

1. The previous poster has misinterprted verses without comparing these verses to other scripture.

Just a few examples

Rom 2:5-6 esp. "who [God] will repay everyone accordingle is to his works.

James 2:14-26 “Faith of itself, if it does not have works is dead”

The ten commandments … they are works to be obeyed

Mt 16: 24 “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me” Taking up a cross means not just believe but act accordingly

So either the bible contradictory or the person previously has misinterprteted the passages they have quoted. You can throw out all the verse with the word faith in it, but that does not answer the verses stated above.

Peace be with you.
I pray that my tone was not condescending, but verse slinging gets people nowhere. It fails to give the argument the total information.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

God is continual. Why do Protestants insist on salvation as being instantaneous only?

I’m sure glad that Jesus didn’t have that midset!

I’m glad that paul didn’t have that midset when he faithfully wrote what the holy Spiri wrote when He said "Work out your salvation witrh fear and trembling.

“Work out” is not instanteous only but continual.

Savlation is a journey–not a pre-paid ticket to a destination.

 

[Atemi]

Jesus being God would know what sins were committed and the sorrow of those who committed them.
Priest cannot know what sins are committed until the person confesses them and expressed sorrow.

That’s why it is God who is faithful and just to forgive us of all sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is also why God is the perfect and infinitely superior bearer of forgiveness.

We should all prefer the Source.

 

[Linkowski]

So, according to your interpretation of Romans 8:30, it’s all past tense for every believer: they have all been predestined, called, justified, glorified.

Is there any aspect of salvation that is a future event in the life of a believer?

There is nothing in Romans 8:30 that gives a tense, but, glorification is a future event when we are changed as 1 Corinthians 15:52 points out…

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

…sanctification is an on-going event (from a progressive standpoint).

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

So this is past (positional and progressive), present, and future by which we are conformed to the image of Christ.

Justified is past.

 

[Linkowski]

God is continual. Why do Protestants insist on salvation as being instantaneous only?

I’m sure glad that Jesus didn’t have that midset!

I’m glad that paul didn’t have that midset when he faithfully wrote what the holy Spiri wrote when He said "Work out your salvation witrh fear and trembling.

“Work out” is not instanteous only but continual.

Savlation is a journey–not a pre-paid ticket to a destination.

Work out has the idea of working to bring something to completion and has to do with the “sanctification” part of salvation. Being born is an event…Jesus’ miracles were events. Then, once justified and dead to the law…pardoned, salvation continues in sanctification and is finalized in glorification.

The elect will all be saved…they were chosen before the foundation of the world and an elect person cannot lose their salvation. Election/predestination itself teaches that:

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.