Justification: Three Questions for Protestants

[Teflon93]

Most protestants teach that justification is essentially a declaration of “not guilty” and “righteous” pronounced by God on a sinner because of Christ and His work.
Roman Catholics teach that justification involves an internal process in which a believer is transformed and “made” more and more righteous. The non-settlement of this issue pretty much puts this thread in “limbo”!

Sure—so long as you intermingle the Catholic concepts of justification and sanctification!

It is incorrect to state that what Catholics teach as sanctification is what we teach as justification—the two are distinct.

Justification is what God does to imbue His grace in us. Sanctification is how we continue to grow closer to him.

I don’t think you’ll find a Catholic who believes that either is not the work of God rather than the work of man.

 

[sandusky]

I am not trying to be a smartypants, but how can all three of them be alone together?

The three are a deliberate emphasis on the work of God in salvation to the exclusion of the work of men in salvation.

 

[Fidelis]

Most protestants teach that justification is essentially a declaration of “not guilty” and “righteous” pronounced by God on a sinner because of Christ and His work.
Roman Catholics teach that justification involves an internal process in which a believer is transformed and “made” more and more righteous.

Even granting this for the sake of arguement, the question can still be answered:

**What does Jesus say we must do to be saved? **

The non-settlement of this issue pretty much puts this thread in “limbo”!

Not quite. Nice try.

 

[Teflon93]

Matthew 18:

1(A)At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “(B)Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,

3and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and (C)become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

4"Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5"And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;

6but (D)whoever (E)causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

7"Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For (F)it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
8"(G)If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

9"(H)If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the (I)fiery hell.

10"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that (J)their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

11"aFor the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.]

Ninety-nine Plus One
12"What do you think? (L)If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
13"If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.

14"So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.

 

[Fidelis]

Believe (Jn 5:24): “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Are you telling me that this is ALL Jesus said about salvation???

Aren’t you kind of leaving a lot out?

I’m pretty tired of waiting. Am I to conclude from this thread:

a) Protestants don’t know their Bibles.
b) Protestants know their Bibles, except the Bibles they use are missing Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Revelation (I know Luther cut out 7 books from the OT, but he must have left his scissors laying around.
**c) Protestants avoid the question because they know that what Jesus taught about salvation conflicts with what they erroneously think and wish St. Paul taught about salvation and thus they are in heavy denial or just being evasive, lest their flawed theology be exposed.By contrast, the Catholic teaching on salvation draws from the entire Bible, making Catholics the only “Full Gospel Church.” **

“Bible Christians” my foot. If the Protestants in these forums can’t answer the question directly, it may as well be closed down and answer (c) above will be the default answer.

**What does Jesus say we must do to be saved? **

 

[Teflon93]

Matthew 16:

24Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. **25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? **Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done. 28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 19:

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

18"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’[d] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[e]"

20"All these I have kept," the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

 

[sandusky]

Are you telling me that this is ALL Jesus said about salvation???

Aren’t you kind of leaving a lot out?

“Bible Christians” my foot.

What’s been left out?

 

[Teflon93]

What’s been left out?

Christ’s actual words.

They’re important. Don’t omit them.

 

[sandusky]

Christ’s actual words.

They’re important. Don’t omit them.

I quoted Him.

 

[Teflon93]

I quoted Him.

You omitted many other things He said.

Let’s not cherrypick here. It’s not as though Christ didn’t address this most important of all questions a number of times in the Gospel.

The curious reluctance of people to quote Christ on salvation is unbelievable to me. Why filter the Lord?

 

[Fidelis]

I quoted Him.

One isolated verse??

How come the Catholics in this thread aren’t having any trouble quoting Our Lord?

 

[sandusky]

Teflon93:

You omitted many other things He said.

I believe in salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone—you gotta believe.

Teflon93:

Let’s not cherrypick here. It’s not as though Christ didn’t address this most important of all questions a number of times in the Gospel.

What do mean? I answered the question using a verse to support the answer—as asked.

Teflon93:

The curious reluctance of people to quote Christ on salvation is unbelievable to me. Why filter the Lord?

What reluctance? I’ve quoted Him…

 

[sandusky]

One isolated verse??

It’s a very strong verse.

Fidelis:

How come the Catholics in this thread aren’t having any trouble quoting Our Lord?

What are you talking about—I had no trouble quoting that verse?

 

[mozart-250]

Matthew 16:
Matthew 19:

Days 2+

 

[LoveOfTruth]

Are you telling me that this is ALL Jesus said about salvation???

Aren’t you kind of leaving a lot out?

I’m pretty tired of waiting. Am I to conclude from this thread:

a) Protestants don’t know their Bibles.
b) Protestants know their Bibles, except the Bibles they use are missing Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts and Revelation (I know Luther cut out 7 books from the OT, but he must have left his scissors laying around.
**c) Protestants avoid the question because they know that what Jesus taught about salvation conflicts with what they erroneously think and wish St. Paul taught about salvation and thus they are in heavy denial or just being evasive, lest their flawed theology be exposed.By contrast, the Catholic teaching on salvation draws from the entire Bible, making Catholics the only “Full Gospel Church.” **

“Bible Christians” my foot. If the Protestants in these forums can’t answer the question directly, it may as well be closed down and answer (c) above will be the default answer.

What does Jesus say we must do to be saved?

You have to be joking…

 

[LoveOfTruth]

You want to speak of justification…you need to consider the greek word and the way it is used in scriputure…

The word “dikaiio” - seems to have a couple of meanings…looking at the Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon…I do not have the exact entry here but it basically has three meanings.

In essence…

1. To show or regard as righteous
2. To declare righteous

Keep this in mind.

 

[mozart-250]

Believe (Jn 5:24): “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Day 1

Note that days 2+ logically flow from day 1.

 

[Fidelis]

You have to be joking…

Not at all.

 

[sandusky]

Fidelis:

Protestants avoid the question because they know that what Jesus taught about salvation conflicts with what they erroneously think and wish St. Paul taught about salvation and thus they are in heavy denial or just being evasive, lest their flawed theology be exposed.By contrast, the Catholic teaching on salvation draws from the entire Bible, making Catholics the only “Full Gospel Church.”

What part of my answer is flawed theology?

 

[Fidelis]

It’s a very strong verse.

Quoted in isolation from everything else Jesus sais about how we are saved, ANY single verse would be a “strong” verse.

What are you talking about—I had no trouble quoting that verse?

That one, safe isolated verse, you meant to say.

Let’s try a little experiment: Is there a Protestant on this thread that can give me five verses of what **St. Paul **says about how we are saved?