Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[lanman87]

That (our division despite Christ’s call that we be one) is explained by human sin.

I would go farther and say that having the same doctrine is not what unites us or divides us. The indwelling Holy Spirit and having been adopted as children of God are what unites us. We are all one family. And like most families we have squabbles and disagree on things. But we are still family.

 

[ajcstr]

I’m in the process of learning how and when those things began to be taught and practiced within the church. If they were taught by and practiced by the Apostles then I have no problem with them. If they somehow got introduced at a later date and are not clearly defined in scripture then I’m inclined to be skeptical.

Do you think that the doctrine of the Trinity (as expressed at Nicaea) was taught by the apostles or had it evolved ?

 

[spina1953]

Because you said:

It was mentioned that grace might be merited through either faith or works maybe. I was taught that Christ merited the grace we receive by His death and resurrection which makes sense since none of us earn, deserve or merit graces as its freely given Am I wrong in that?

I don’t think this is wrong at all

JonNC, Thank you for your reply! The more I read your posts the more I seem to understand where you are coming from!

 

[Cathoholic]

I would go farther and say that having the same doctrine is not what unites us or divides us. The indwelling Holy Spirit and having been adopted as children of God are what unites us. We are all one family.

This is a partial truth Ianman87. The Holy Spirit DOES unite us.

But I would not be so quick to exclude the dimension of doctrine too. And as ajcstr just said, don’t be quick to exclude doctrine affrimed even implicitly (but later taught explicitly to combat heresies that arise [which itself is one illustration of the importance of doctrine]).

I’m in the process of learning how and when those things began to be taught and practiced within the church. If they were taught by and practiced by the Apostles then I have no problem with them. If they somehow got introduced at a later date and are not clearly defined in scripture then I’m inclined to be skeptical.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14689950&postcount=567

Would you please show me from the Bible the important . . . . “Doctrine” . . . . That says doctrine is not important in unity of the Body of Christ.

Then please show me how this doctrine of the unimportance of doctrine, was “taught and practiced within the church. And how this was taught by and practiced by the Apostles”.

I want to make sure the key doctrine of the unimportance of doctrine in unity didn’t somehow get introduced at a later date and was not practiced by the Apostles.

 

[ajcstr]

It was mentioned that grace might be merited through either faith or works maybe. I was taught that Christ merited the grace we receive by His death and resurrection which makes sense since none of us earn, deserve or merit graces as its freely given Am I wrong in that?

CCC paragraph 2010 - 2011 (emphasis mine)
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. **Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. **Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

The CCC then includes a quote from St Therese which may interest you as it sounds very harmonious with Luther to me … After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

 

[James248]

I would go further and say that having the same doctrine is not what unites us or divides us. The indwelling Holy Spirit and having been adopted as children of God are what unites us. We are all one family. And like most families we have squabbles and disagree on things. But we are still family.

Tell that to the Apostle Paul when he dealt with Alexander and Hymenaeus. Tell that to the Apostles when they dealt with the Ebionites.

 

[PRmerger]

That (our division despite Christ’s call that we be one) is explained by human sin.

We are agreed here.

But the point remains: the tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each with its own interpretations of Scripture (permitted by the paradigm–“no one has the authority to tell me how to interpret Scripture!”) is a behemoth and an obscenity.

And the list I proferred does not include churches like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X...C5o0dyrM3vDpA2FMlG5t7uxqgZxB8BUjbN9Skjdw=s121

 

[JonNC]

CCC paragraph 2010 - 2011 (emphasis mine)
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. **Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. **Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

The CCC then includes a quote from St Therese which may interest you as it sounds very harmonious with Luther to me … After earth’s exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

Amen to the words of St Therese, and thank you for sharing them.

Forgive my discomfort with the phrase, “merit for ourselves and for others the graces…”. Beyond that, I can’t help but agree in a general sense the CCC as you quote it

 

[JonNC]

We are agreed here.

But the point remains: the tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each with its own interpretations of Scripture (permitted by the paradigm–“no one has the authority to tell me how to interpret Scripture!”) is a behemoth and an obscenity.

And the list I proferred does not include churches like this:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/X...C5o0dyrM3vDpA2FMlG5t7uxqgZxB8BUjbN9Skjdw=s121

You’ve known me long enough to know I am not comfortable at all with the thought process you describe above. My issue is with the use of the term behemoth because it implies a single entity, not only in its general usage but also in Job.

 

[PRmerger]

You’ve known me long enough to know I am not comfortable at all with the thought process you describe above. My issue is with the use of the term behemoth because it implies a single entity, not only in its general usage but also in Job.

Oh! I had no idea that your objection was to my use of “behemoth”.

I simply meant it’s so huge, it’s monstrous.

(By “it” I mean: the number of Protestant denominations).

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Tell that to the Apostle Paul when he dealt with Alexander and Hymenaeus. Tell that to the Apostles when they dealt with the Ebionites.

How many people know that Santa Clause punched out a heretic at the council of Nicea?

 

[lanman87]

Do you think that the doctrine of the Trinity (as expressed at Nicaea) was taught by the apostles or had it evolved ?

I think the scriptures prove the doctrine of the trinity. As such, the apostle had understanding about what they were writing, they weren’t just dictating documents without understanding.

 

[MichaelP3]

Do you think that the doctrine of the Trinity (as expressed at Nicaea) was taught by the apostles or had it evolved ?

You can also read James White’s book?

books.google.co.za/books?id=YSb-nQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Pretty comprehensive guide that it is all in there

 

[lanman87]

This is a partial truth Ianman87. The Holy Spirit DOES unite us.

But I would not be so quick to exclude the dimension of doctrine too. And as ajcstr just said, don’t be quick to exclude doctrine affrimed even implicitly (but later taught explicitly to combat heresies that arise [which itself is one illustration of the importance of doctrine]).

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14689950&postcount=567

Would you please show me from the Bible the important . . . . “Doctrine” . . . . That says doctrine is not important in unity of the Body of Christ.

Then please show me how this doctrine of the unimportance of doctrine, was “taught and practiced within the church. And how this was taught by and practiced by the Apostles”.

I want to make sure the key doctrine of the unimportance of doctrine in unity didn’t somehow get introduced at a later date and was not practiced by the Apostles.

I didn’t say the doctrine wasn’t important in unity and did not exclude it. Obviously you can’t have faith in Kermit the Frog and be considered a Christian. However, having perfect understanding is not a condition on being a follower of Christ. The grace of God is greater than our feeble attempts to come up with a theological explanation for the tough questions that we ponder. Ultimately we will be either welcomed into Christ presence as a child of the King or be told to depart because we didn’t know Him.

It is the letter of Clement to the Corinthian Church that says:

And so we, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, *are
not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or
understanding or piety or works *which we wrought in holiness of
heart, but through faith, whereby the Almighty God justified all men
that have been from the beginning; to whom be the glory for ever and
ever. Amen.

We should strive for unity in understanding (which is one reason I’m on this forum) but lack of unity in understanding doesn’t spiritually separate those that truly have faith in Christ. The key being they actually have faith in Christ.

 

[ajcstr]

You can also read James White’s book?

books.google.co.za/books?id=YSb-nQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

Pretty comprehensive guide that it is all in there

I believe his books are on the Vatican banned list.

 

[ajcstr]

I think the scriptures prove the doctrine of the trinity. As such, the apostle had understanding about what they were writing, they weren’t just dictating documents without understanding.

Well they needed a council to decide the matter so may not have been as clear cut as you think. Also, though I know I won’t get too much traction with this because EVERYBODY knew which books were inspired, I believe Nicaea predated the councils that defined the NT Canon.

And before this thread gets sidetracked of course the NT points to the Trinity but if the doctrine needed to be defined (or at a minimum clarified) in 325 I’m not so sure how clear a 1st century christian would have been on the matter.

 

[James248]

How many people know that Santa Clause punched out a heretic at the council of Nicea?

Apparently Jolly Old St. Nicholas wasn’t so jolly when dealing with heretics. Imagine what he would do if he was here today!

 

[Porknpie]

We should strive for unity in understanding (which is one reason I’m on this forum) but lack of unity in understanding doesn’t spiritually separate those that truly have faith in Christ .

Agree. To have faith in Christ is to follow ALL of what Jesus taught, contained in fullness in the Church he established and has promised to lead to all truth.

I assume you copied and pasted the words of St. Clement from another website without reading the source document which can be found here:

ewtn.com/library/patristc/anf1-1.htm

He also says this, in the same Corinthian letter.

Chap. XXX. Let us do those things that please God, and flee from those He hates, that we may be blessed.

Seeing, therefore, that we are the portion of the Holy One, let us do all those things which pertain to holiness, avoiding all evil-speaking, all abominable and impure embraces, together with all drunkenness, seeking after change, all abominable lusts, detestable adultery, and execrable pride. “For God,” saith [the Scripture], “resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.” Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words.

To what you copied, he then says:

Chap. XXXII. We are justified not by our own works, but by faith.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.” All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

All of which is very Catholic. Works of the OT Law can not justify. Works of love do.

Which is why St James says:

24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Which is consistent with his words of Abraham:

You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,

If you agree with the written Word of God above, you hold a very Catholic view, one supported by St. Clement.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Don’t take this the wrong way, but how do you know that Sacred Tradition is truth?

Anyone who has ever played the gossip game knows that stories change as they are passed from one person to the next.

How do you know that those things aren’t based on legends and fictitious stories and misunderstandings that were passed around and changed to reflect peoples hopes and biases, but eventually accepted as fact? The early church fathers, especially those who came 100+ years after the Apostles were as susceptible as anyone to misinformation. Just because they believed something to be true doesn’t mean it was true.

I’m not asking that question to be snarky or combative. As someone who is trying to learn about Catholicism I think it is a fair question.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Don’t take this the wrong way, but how do you know that Sacred Tradition is truth?

Anyone who has ever played the gossip game knows that stories change as they are passed from one person to the next.

How do you know that those things aren’t based on legends and fictitious stories and misunderstandings that were passed around and changed to reflect peoples hopes and biases, but eventually accepted as fact? The early church fathers, especially those who came 100+ years after the Apostles were as susceptible as anyone to misinformation. Just because they believed something to be true doesn’t mean it was true.

I’m not asking that question to be snarky or combative. As someone who is trying to learn about Catholicism I think it is a fair question.

These are good points and honest questions.

I guess an honest answer would be, Faith. Faith is the subject of this thread, and it is by Faith we believe Sacred Tradition to be true. Catholics believe Jesus established His Church of which He is the head, which is prevented from error by the Holy Spirit. The problem with the old analogy of the gossip game is that it ignores the roll of the Holy Spirit in preserving Truth. Jesus said, You will know the Truth. Jesus did not write, so how else can the Truth be known?

And we should realize, much of Scripture itself is simply written down Tradition. The Gospels in particular are oral tradition finally put down onto scrolls. And do we know who the authors of these scrolls were? No, we don’t. We merely have the tradition that they were Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. So if one is skeptical about Tradition, that skepticism should be applied to Scripture too.

In regards to the Trinity, I believe that the apostles taught the deity of Jesus and the Holy Spirit directly to the early Christians (of course they did not call it the “Trinity” then). We know that the first Christian authors talk about Jesus as God as early as 107 AD. This date is too early for that doctrine to come from scriptural exegesis! The Christian scrolls were not gathered together and recognized as a canon yet, not for hundreds of years. However, armed with Sacred Tradition, with the teaching of the apostles ringing in their ears, later scripture exegetes knew how to defend the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit from scripture. How to find the proper passages for it. I wonder if someone who did not know Tradition would derive the Trinity from scripture alone. I doubt it. Because we know the Jehovah’s Witnesses use scripture alone to convince many people against it!

In your study of Catholicism, it may help to be aware of a fundamental philosophical difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. It is this:
Catholics start with Church, and derive Scripture. Protestants in general (it seems to me), start with Scripture and derive Church, that is, their doctrines and denominations and their own traditions.