Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

[LatinRight]

**God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post Cathoholic.**

I think I understand your post and your reasoning.

If we take John 15:1-7 out from the rest of the context of the Scripture and we separate it from the related teachings of the Church and negatively infer it, we are fall into the negative inference fallacy and we can conclude, we can go in and out from the Body of Christ, like we can go in an out from a central station.

God desire is that everyone saved in Christ, but God grant to enter into Christ for only those who have been chosen and predestined according to His purpose.

Every child/elect of God who have been baptized into the Body of Christ is a receiver of God’s salvation/everlasting life and God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an eternal protection of their salvation/everlasting life and make it sure the recipients stay in Christ.

THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND THE MOST CRUCIAL THEOLOGICAL FACT OF PREDESTINATION (Please listen Cathoholic.)

Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every elect of God would come out from Christ and would end up in hell with the reprobates.

God is the one (special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance) keeps His chosen/elect in Christ. – Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; etc.

Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “that great and special gift of final perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”

ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES,PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”

John 15:1-7 written for education and encouragement purpose not for predestination study.

According to your reasoning Cathoholic, please correct me if I’m wrong, those who are baptized into Christ and choose not to remain in Christ are the reprobates and those who are choose to remain in Christ they are the elect.

THEOLOGICAL FACT
Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance **everyone would end up in hell. **– So, your above reasoning Cathoholic is incorrect.

Please don’t get me wrong, I understand your reasoning and I like it but theologically it is an incorrect reasoning and falls down on the theological fact that without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every elect would COME OUT FROM CHRIST and every elect would end up in hell with the reprobates.

So, God does not looking who would make it to heaven and who would make it to hell, because without His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone would end up hell.

So, God has no other choice, He has to choose His elect and have to give His elect at their initial justification His gift of salvation/everlasting life and His special grace the Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of the salvation/everlasting life of His chosen ones. – His children/elect.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestination.

**THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):**

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.

THE FOLLOWING TEACHINGS CONFIRMS THE ABOVE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION

John 15:16; “You did not chose Me, but I chose you …”

Eph.1:11; “… being predestined ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE of Him …”

2 Tim.1:9; “God who saved us and called us with holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE …”

Rom.8:29-30; For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethern.
And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS OF THE PREDESTINATION

Predestination is not arbitrary, God predestined His elect not according to their works but according to His own purpose.

1. Foreknew.
2. Predestined.

3.Called.

1. Justified
2. Glorified.

John 6:44-45; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
**It is written in the Prophets: **‘They will all be taught by God.’
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

John 6:64-65; But there are some of you how do not believe.
For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Judas chosen by God for one reason and for one reason only, for by to betray Jesus to fulfil the Scripture. – Judas’ Betrayal was a Fulfilment of Old Testament Prophecy, John 13:18; John 17:12; Acts 1:16; etc.

Of course God didn’t make Judas to betray Jesus, he betrayed Jesus by his own will.

**In John 6:64-65 Jesus made it abundantly clear, don’t need any more Judas and will be no more Judas: ** “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Rom.8:30; Also abundantly clear: “And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

No more Judas, no more betrayer, only those who are predestined to heaven called and drawing by the Father to Christ and granted by the Father to come to Christ and all of them at the end will be glorified.

It is very clear in the Scripture, Rom.8:29-30; John 6:44-45, 64-65, God calls only into His service and baptizes into Christ who are chosen to be His sons and daughters and predestined to heaven. – Anyway God performs His part of the baptism of the elect in heaven, a reprobate can never reach heaven.

It is very clear in the Scripture, God never calls a reprobate into His service and God never baptizes a reprobate into Christ. – No more Judas, no more betrayer.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite.

OK. I listened.

Now you’ve gotta “listen” too LatinRite.

There are a lot of truths that you just posted in posts 668 and 669 but there are a lot of partial truths too.

You said:

THE KEY TO UNDERSTAND THE MOST CRUCIAL THEOLOGICAL FACT OF PREDESTINATION (Please listen Cathoholic.)

Without God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every elect of God would come out from Christ and would end up in hell with the reprobates. . . .

You DO understand NOBODY here is saying you can get to Heaven WITHOUT God’s grace . . . . don’t you?

There is not one Catholic or one Protestant here that has said anything like:

“Oh yes. You can get to Heaven WITHOUT God’s grace.”

No.

Nobody is saying that or even inferring it.

So I am not sure why you are bringing up that point in an apologetic manner. (I could see in a catechetical context but there is no need to defend the need for grace on this thread Latin Rite. Everybody here is in agreement that we NEED God’s grace.)

God gives us His graces without destruction of our free will.

Free will still plays a part in our salvation process.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite: God calls only into His service and baptizes into Christ who are chosen to be His sons and daughters and predestined to heaven.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

Cathoholic: If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite: God desire is that everyone saved in Christ,
but God grant to enter into Christ for only those who have been chosen and predestined according to His purpose.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (CCC 1037a): God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

Cathoholic: God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

 

[Cathoholic]

LatinRite:

Rom.8:29-30; For those God foreknew he also predestined . . . .

God DID predestine them LatinRite.

But the people also must “accept” those graces. You CAN REJECT salvation.

That’s precisely WHY you can be in the Vine (notice you are REALLY in the Vine), yet choose to not “REMAIN” in the Vine. (And since God predestines NO ONE to Hell, this would have to be be YOUR own choice)

And if you do make that disastrous choice to remove yourself from The Vine, and don’t repent of it, you will be “cast aside and burned”.

JOHN 15:1-6 (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Cathoholic: Dear Lord Jesus. Who is “the true Vine”?

JESUS: “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

Cathoholic: Jesus. What happens to people who are IN YOU, that do NOT bear fruit?

JESUS: He (My Father) cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

Cathoholic: People who are IN YOU, can ONLY “REMAIN” in you right? I mean Heaven is in their bag from all eternity. Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

JESUS: Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Cathoholic: Right. I get that part. But if I am IN YOU Jesus, then I automatically “REMAIN” in You right? Then Heaven would be in my bag and all of that. Right?

JESUS: If you do not remain in me, you are. . . .

Cathoholic: Begging your pardon for interrupting Lord. But you seem to be saying people might NOT “remain” in You? Is this correct?

JESUS: If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[LatinRight]

LatinRite.

OK. I listened.

Now you’ve gotta “listen” too LatinRite.

There are a lot of truths that you just posted in posts 668 and 669 but there are a lot of partial truths too.

You DO understand NOBODY here is saying you can get to Heaven WITHOUT God’s grace . . . . don’t you?

There is not one Catholic or one Protestant here that has said anything like:

No.

Nobody is saying that or even inferring it.

So I am not sure why you are bringing up that point in an apologetic manner. (I could see in a catechetical context but there is no need to defend the need for grace on this thread Latin Rite. Everybody here is in agreement that we NEED God’s grace.)

God gives us His graces without destruction of our free will.

Free will still plays a part in our salvation process.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Sorry Cathoholic, probably I didn’t explain it clearly which grace I talking about.

I didn’t talk about the grace we need to have to go into Christ and to go up to heaven, I have been talking about the grace which we need to have, to stay in Christ and to stay in heaven. - Eph.2:6, 19-22.

**I talked about God’s special protecting grace: ** “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

God gives His special protecting grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance” every of His chosen sons and daughters/elect at their initial justification.

This is above an eternal protection of their salvation/everlasting life and a 100 % assurance they stay in Christ.

Without this protecting grace every child/elect of God **would COME OUT FROM CHRIST and would end up in hell with the reprobates. **

THIS IS AS FOLLWS I REFERRED TO in my above post:

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

**This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin**

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. End quote

**Without the above God’s gift of special protecting grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.” **NONE OF US (God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect) COULD STAY IN CHRIST, without it the destiny of ALL OF US would be IN HELL with the reprobates.

God gives this special PROTECTIVE grace to every of His chosen sons and daughters/elect at their initial justification called “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”

To make sure we understand each other Cathoholic, I ask two questions:

MY STATEMENT
**Without God’s special protecting grace, The Gift of Final Perseverance **every of God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect would come out from Christ and would end up in hell with the reprobates.

Do you believe my above statement Cathoholic?

MY STATEMENT
God is the one (special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance) keeps His chosen sons and daughters/elect in Christ and they cannot fail, their everlasting life/heaven is in their bag from all eternity and they cannot lose it. – Rom.14:4; Phil.1:6; etc.

Do you believe my above statement Cathoholic?

Thank you in advance.

I will answer your other posts as well.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

There IS a gift of final perseverance Latin Rite. But you don’t divorce it from the way you live.

That’s WHY St. Augustine can say . . . .

ST. AUGUSTINE ‘As a man lives, so shall he die.’

That’s exactly WHY St. Peter says the way you live allows you to see your calling and “election”.

2nd PETER 1:3-11 (NIV) 3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+1

The gift of final perseverance should not be separated from “ordinary means” of salvation by us.

I agree God can still save the worst sinners on their deathbed via EXTRA-ordinary means.

But I also agree that we have a free will and can tragically reject God or as Jesus says, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE”.

 

[LatinRight]

LatinRite: God calls only into His service and baptizes into Christ who are chosen to be His sons and daughters and predestined to heaven.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

Cathoholic: If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Matt.22:14; “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

God’s desire is that everyone saved in Christ, in heaven.

God gives sufficient grace to everyone, God’s elect accept it, the reprobates by their vehement rejection of God and His grace practically predestined themselves to hell.

Rom.8:30:
And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

LatinRight:
And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

There IS a gift of final perseverance Latin Rite. But you don’t divorce it from the way you live.

That’s WHY St. Augustine can say . . . .

That’s exactly WHY St. Peter says the way you live allows you to see your calling and “election”.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+1

The gift of final perseverance should not be separated from “ordinary means” of salvation by us.

I agree God can still save the worst sinners on their deathbed via EXTRA-ordinary means.

But I also agree that we have a free will and can tragically reject God or as Jesus says, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE”.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Jesus:
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out …”

It is given for encouragement not for predestination study.

Cathoholic, you negatively inferred it and you have fallen into the negative inference fallacy as follows:

Cathoholic:
But I also agree that we have a free will and can tragically reject God or **as Jesus says, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE”. **

Jesus DID NOT SAY, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE,” Jesus said; “If anyone does not abide in Me/“the VINE, …”

Cathoholic, what you said and what Jesus said are TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!

Why is different???

It is different because God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect at their initial justification received God’s gift of salvation/everlasting life and God’s gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of their salvation/everlasting life and 100 % assurance they never choose not to remain in Jesus/the vine.

You also said Cathoholic:
There IS a gift of final perseverance Latin Rite. But you don’t divorce it from the way you live.

Cathoholic you should know; God’s gift of final perseverance always and infallible protects God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect the way they live and not to lose their everlasting life/heaven which is in their bag from all eternity.

Cathoholic, I’m sure you know; if even one son or daughter/elect of God protection would be failed by God’s gift of final perseverance and even one of them would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience.

I even can go that far and say:
I cannot divorce the way I live from God’s gift of final perseverance because God’s gift of final perseverance directs the way I live.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[James248]

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Jesus:
“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out …”

It is given for encouragement not for predestination study.

Cathoholic, you negatively inferred it and you have fallen into the negative inference fallacy as follows:

Cathoholic:
But I also agree that we have a free will and can tragically reject God or **as Jesus says, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE”. **

Jesus DID NOT SAY, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE,” Jesus said; “If anyone does not abide in Me/“the VINE, …”

Cathoholic, what you said and what Jesus said are TOTALLY DIFFERENT!!!

Why is different???

It is different because God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect at their initial justification received God’s gift of salvation/everlasting life and God’s gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance which is an Eternal Protection of their salvation/everlasting life and 100 % assurance they never choose not to remain in Jesus/the vine.

You also said Cathoholic:
There IS a gift of final perseverance Latin Rite. But you don’t divorce it from the way you live.

Cathoholic you should know; God’s gift of final perseverance always and infallible protects God’s chosen sons and daughters/elect the way they live and not to lose their everlasting life/heaven which is in their bag from all eternity.

Cathoholic, I’m sure you know; if even one son or daughter/elect of God protection would be failed by God’s gift of final perseverance and even one of them would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience.

I even can go that far and say:
I cannot divorce the way I live from God’s gift of final perseverance because God’s gift of final perseverance directs the way I live.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

In the parable you quoted, those who were chosen were the ones who accepted the invitation. And God blots people out of His book all the time.

 

[Cathoholic]

Latin Rite. You said:

Cathoholic, you negatively inferred it and you have fallen into the negative inference fallacy as follows:

Cathoholic:
But I also agree that we have a free will and can tragically reject God or as Jesus says, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE”.

Jesus DID NOT SAY, choose to NOT “REMAIN” in “the VINE,” Jesus said; “If anyone does not abide in Me/“the VINE, …”

You suggested here when people go OUT from Jesus (notice you CAN go out from Jesus Latin Rite) that it isn’t their “choice” admonishing me for saying it is their choice.

Your criticism? My negative inference.

Well let’s see.

The only possibilities would be . . . . .

• If someone else removes them from Jesus.
• Jesus removes them from Jesus.
• Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus and God honors that choice.

Since now you seem to admit they CAN go out from Jesus, but showed contempt for my concluding that this is of their own “choice” then . . . .

WHO removes them from Jesus?

Remember. There are only three possibilities.

The only possibilities would be if

• Someone else removes them from Jesus?
• Jesus removes FAITHFUL people IN Jesus from Jesus with no reason??
• Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus by their sin and God gives them what they want.

Keep in mind . . . .

Someone else removes them from Jesus? (No. “Nobody can snatch them out of my hand.” - John 10:28-29)

Jesus removes them from Jesus? (No. Jesus “desires ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” - 1st Timothy 2:4 There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1)

Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus (Yep. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . . how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Luke 13:34).

Which is it Latin Rite?

WHO removes these people from Jesus in your tradition Latin Rite if not themselves?

Here is what is taught.

MATTHEW 10:32-33 32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

(And remember this “Acknowledgment” isn’t reduced to words only)

Here is what is NOT taught.

NOT MATTHEW 10 (but a phantom verse) 32 So every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge some of them before my Father who is in heaven. But others I will randomly choose to remove from myself.

You MUST COOPERATE with God’s grace Latin Rite.

That’s free will along WITH predestination.

Catholics affirm BOTH free will AND predestination (and reject the utterly false notion of double predestination—the proverbial Divine puppet show).

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON IV If any one saith, that man’s free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

Your good works throughout your lifetime done IN GRACE, are PART of that gift of final “perseverance” (or preservation of justice received) because God is outside of time.

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XXIV If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.

 

[LatinRight]

In the parable you quoted, those who were chosen were the ones who accepted the invitation. And God blots people out of His book all the time.

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.**

**I agree with you **those who were chosen were the ones who accepted the invitation.

The Catholic Church doesn’t agree with you James that God blots people out of His book all the time.

God has completed the Book of Life from all eternity by taken out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

Practically by their vehement rejection of God and His grace the reprobates predestined themselves to hell.

In Catholic Theology only the reprobates end up in hell who are predestined to hell from all eternity .

From the completion, from all eternity, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” from all eternity, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellations from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusions even in our days, even among some Catholics, because someone may wrongly concludes; some of God’s chosen sons or daughters/elect might decides to come out from Christ/the Vine and lose their salvation, which is an absolute theological impossibility – according to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[James248]

**God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.**

**I agree with you **those who were chosen were the ones who accepted the invitation.

The Catholic Church doesn’t agree with you James that God blots people out of His book all the time.

God has completed the Book of Life from all eternity by taken out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace and as the results they all end up in hell.

Practically by their vehement rejection of God and His grace the reprobates predestined themselves to hell.

In Catholic Theology only the reprobates end up in hell **who are predestined to hell from all eternity **.

From the completion, from all eternity, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” from all eternity, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellations from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusions even in our days, even among some Catholics, because someone may wrongly concludes; some of God’s chosen sons or daughters/elect might decides to come out from Christ/the Vine and lose their salvation, which is an absolute theological impossibility – according to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

God bless James and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

What did God say to Moses? “He who has sinned, I will blot out of My Book.” So God disagrees with you. Church teaching disagrees with you. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

 

[Cathoholic]

Latin Rite:

someone may wrongly concludes; some of God’s chosen sons or daughters/elect might decides to come out from Christ/the Vine and lose their salvation, which is an absolute theological impossibility – according to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

This is an example of a partial truth Latin Rite.

The people in Jesus, the people in The Vine, are the people who are “born again” or Baptized.

The reason you cannot get the fullness of truth on this is because you are conflating being “born again” with “The Elect”.

All of “The Elect” are in some sense “Born Again”.

But not all people who are “Born Again” are of “The Elect”.

---

For those who do not know . . .

"The Elect" are people in Heaven or who will end up in Heaven in the future. All of them. They accept God’s graces.

"The Reprobate" are people in Hell or who will end up in Hell in the future. All of them. They reject God’s graces.

Since God is omniscient God ALREADY KNOWS these things.

But just because God knows, does not negate their free will which is what Latin Rite is attempting to posit here.

---

JOHN 15:1-6 (NIV) “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

***To people reading this thread . . . . ***

Latin Rite is confused about being Baptized or “Born Again” and is equating that to being of “The Elect.”

Which is WHY Latin Rite is having difficulty understanding WHY people can really be IN JESUS, but may not REMAIN . . . . IN JESUS.

So the Latin Rite theory is . . .well I’m not sure.

I don’t know if LR is saying they were never “IN JESUS” or “IN THE VINE” in the first place (which would contradict John 15) . . . . or . . . .

. . . . . or if LR thinks despite being “thrown into the fire and burned” is being “saved” anyway which the passage certainly does NOT suggest salvation (which would ALSO contradict John 15).

Either way, its not Catholic. It is not even “Protestant” for most historical Protestants.

I’ve already shown that these views are condemned by the Catholic Church.

---

Being “born again” does not necessarily mean you are one of the “predestinate” or “The Elect”.

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XV If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

---

And the idea that ONLY “The Elect” or people who are “predestined unto life” receive the grace of justification is wrong.

. . . . “God grant to enter into Christ for only those who have been chosen and predestined according to His purpose.” – Latin Rite

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XVII If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; . . . . let him be anathema.

Some people received the grace of justification through Baptism. They were really “born again” or “born of water and the Spirit.” They were IN Christ. They were IN THE VINE.

But some of those who were IN THE VINE sadly chose (choose) to NOT “REMAIN” in the Vine and are thus condemned according to their own wishes.

That is the warning Jesus is giving in John 15:1-6 above.

I agree, they were never of “The Elect” in the first place.

But they WERE BORN AGAIN. They were IN the VINE. They were in Jesus. They DID have the grace of justification (which is being IN Jesus). Go back and re-read John 15:1-6. It is plain for all to see.

But some of these people IN the Vine squandered their sonship or daughterhood (or at least that is who Jesus is warning here).

They had the grace of justification, yet they squandered those graces (see 2nd Corinthians 6:1 warning against this too) so despite being once justified they no longer are justified and wind up condemned. They were NOT of the Elect. They were NOT among those “predestined unto life”. But they WERE IN JESUS for awhile.

And LR is trying to tell you folks that the grace of justification is ONLY attained by those predestined unto life. (And I am warning that this view is condemned)

COUNCIL OF TRENT CANON XVII If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; . . . . let him be anathema.

 

[LatinRight]

Latin Rite. You said:

You suggested here when people go OUT from Jesus (notice you CAN go out from Jesus Latin Rite) that it isn’t their “choice” admonishing me for saying it is their choice.

Your criticism? My negative inference.

Well let’s see.

The only possibilities would be . . . . .

• If someone else removes them from Jesus.
• Jesus removes them from Jesus.
• Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus and God honors that choice.

Since now you seem to admit they CAN go out from Jesus, but showed contempt for my concluding that this is of their own “choice” then . . . .

WHO removes them from Jesus?

Remember. There are only three possibilities.

The only possibilities would be if

• Someone else removes them from Jesus?
• Jesus removes FAITHFUL people IN Jesus from Jesus with no reason??
• Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus by their sin and God gives them what they want.

Keep in mind . . . .

Someone else removes them from Jesus? (No. “Nobody can snatch them out of my hand.” - John 10:28-29)

Jesus removes them from Jesus? (No. Jesus “desires ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” - 1st Timothy 2:4 There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1)

Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus (Yep. “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem . . . how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Luke 13:34).

Which is it Latin Rite?

WHO removes these people from Jesus in your tradition Latin Rite if not themselves?

Here is what is taught.

(And remember this “Acknowledgment” isn’t reduced to words only)

Here is what is NOT taught.

You MUST COOPERATE with God’s grace Latin Rite.

That’s free will along WITH predestination.

Catholics affirm BOTH free will AND predestination (and reject the utterly false notion of double predestination—the proverbial Divine puppet show).

Your good works throughout your lifetime done IN GRACE, are PART of that gift of final “perseverance” (or preservation of justice received) because God is outside of time.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post Cathoholic.

This will be a short post and I present only my answer of the question.

So please don’t answer this post.

In my next post I will present the Catholic Church answer of the question.

Please answer my next post.

YOUR QUESTION CATHOHOLIC

WHO removes them from Jesus?

Remember. There are only three possibilities.

The only possibilities would be if
• Someone else removes them from Jesus?
• Jesus removes FAITHFUL people IN Jesus from Jesus with no reason??
• Or they CHOOSE of their own volition to remove themselves from Jesus by their sin and God gives them what they want.

My answer of your above question Cathoholic:

There are not three possibilities because it is zero possibility that a son or daughter/elect of God, chosen by God to be His son or daughter to come out from Christ/The Vine.

In my next post a will present the Catholic Church answer of your question Cathoholic. – That will be a longer post or posts.

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRihgt

 

[LatinRight]

God bless Cathoholic and every readers of the CAF.

Second thoughts, if you like to answer my above post Cathoholic, your answer is more then welcome.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[Cathoholic]

Latin Rite:

because it is zero possibility that a son or daughter/elect of God, chosen by God to be His son or daughter to come out from Christ/The Vine.

To readers of this thread.

This is what I was saying before.

Latin Rite conflates being in the Vine (being Born again) with being in the Vine for all eternity (being of the Elect) in John 15.

But Jesus doesn’t do this.

Jesus warns people if they do not REMAIN in the Vine (notice there is a situation where you can NOT “Remain” in Jesus, and Jesus warns about it), they will be cast aside and burned.

The Elect DO have zero chance of condemnation. But they are among “The Elect” not merely because of predestination ALONE, but because of God’s predestination AND their cooperation (free will). That’s WHY they are among “The Elect”.

Latin Rite won’t affirm this.

Jesus does assert it.

The Catholic Church asserts it.

I affirm it.

And I hope you do too as this is what Jesus said.

Here it is again with parenthetical additions mine

JOHN 15:1-2, 4-6 (NIV)

“I am the true vine,
and my Father is the gardener.

2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, (these are the works or “fruit” necessary after we are “in me” or “in Jesus”)

while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. . . .

4 Remain in me (Notice Jesus is talking to people who are IN Him, but they must REMAIN IN HIM), as I also remain in you.

No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. (Jesus repeats the importance of REMAINING IN HIM)

Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me (And a third time Jesus warns us).

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me (A forth time Jesus warns us to REMAIN in Him) and I in you, you will bear much fruit;

apart from me you can do nothing.

(these are works “on your own”. They are meaningless or “nothing” because they are “apart from” Jesus.

These works apart from the life of grace are NOT the “works” necessary. Works necessary are works done IN the VINE or in grace.)

6** If you do not remain** in me (Now the Fifth time Jesus warns us to REMAIN in Him [again notice you are IN Jesus here] only now Jesus tells us the consequences of NOT remaining in Him.

Latin Rite says there is a “zero possibility” of this occurring.

You read it for yourselves and judge for yourselves who is right. Latin Rite or Jesus?),

you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

 

[ajcstr]

Latin Rite conflates being in the Vine (being Born again) with being in the Vine for all eternity (being of the Elect) in John 15.

I have had this same discussion with LatinRight a while back. I would add Romans 11:22 if it has not been brought up already (sorry, I don’t have the stamina for the long posts).

Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. Rom 11:22 ESV

The point is someone can receive the grace of initial justification, but ultimately not be saved.

Interesting debate between Trent Horn of CA and DR James White:

youtube.com/watch?v=72TRODe8BdA&t=25s

 

[PRmerger]

The point is someone can receive the grace of initial justification, but ultimately not be saved.

Yep.

And no one knows if he is saved until he is dead. Period.