Justified by Faith Alone cf. James 2:24

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tgGodsway said:
Rcwitness, I’m not sure who you were addressing in your last statement, but I have no division in my heart toward any Church body. My union with Christ is alive and well. But remember Jesus loved the Pharisees even though they rejected Him and His ministry.
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I’m not talking about the Pharisees. I’m talking about the Church and her Teachings.

Whoever wishes to receive Jesus, will come to His one table of Eucharist and Scripture.

Partial communion with the Church exists, because of men and our faults.
 
Wannano said:
How can I be separated from something I never was joined to?
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You answered your own question. But you are joined to the Church through Baptism. But since their is division (on account of Catholic member’s and reformer’s faults) the Church has splintered. And the account of the Scriptures and it’s testament brings many to belief, and so communion. Yet, division of Teaching and leadership has resulted in separation from His Eucharist.
 
Yes, I agree. The Eucharist is not my custom or belief. I follow the teachings of the earliest Apostles and Jesus Christ. I do partake of holy Communion but not as a perpetual bloodless sacrifice. Jesus is the final lamb needed to take away sins penalty. He did so two thousand years ago. It is finished. 😁
 
tgGodsway said:
I go away for a few hours and y’all chop me up for dinner. I am in the body of Christ and my circle of believing friends are with me all around the world. There are tens of millions of us. We are Catholic in that sense. You use the word as a label, I use it as a concept. We do not ask Rome for permission to be in Christ nor should we. Christ body is so much bigger than the dictates of Rome.
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Just so you know, I am with you 100%.

There is much being said here tonight very rapidly and I feel statements are being made that have not been thought through on a stand alone basis. I am quite disappointed.
 
tgGodsway said:
I go away for a few hours and y’all chop me up for dinner. I am in the body of Christ and my circle of believing friends are with me all around the world. There are tens of millions of us. We are Catholic in that sense. You use the word as a label, I use it as a concept. We do not ask Rome for permission to be in Christ nor should we. Christ body is so much bigger than the dictates of Rome.
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I take it that you agree with me that Catholics and Protestants are brothers/sisters in Christ, so that’s good. 🙂

The only thing is, if we use the word “Catholic” as you are using it, it will get mighty confusing. (I remember, long ago, how I would call myself “Roman Catholic”, but in recent times that has been made into a shorthand for “Roman-Rite Catholic”.)
 
rcwitness said:
You can’t be separated from the Church and perfectly united to Christ. There are divisions.
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I have heard this from other Catholics but never before from you. I don’t think you have the certain knowledge that I am not perfectly united with Christ. That is a judgement I am willing to leave in God’s hands.
 
Peter_J said:
I take it that you agree with me that Catholics and Protestants are brothers/sisters in Christ, so that’s good. 🙂

The only thing is, if we use the word “Catholic” as you are using it, it will get mighty confusing. (I remember, long ago, how I would call myself “Roman Catholic”, but in recent times that has been made into a shorthand for “Roman-Rite Catholic”.)
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Maybe the genuine ecumenical approach would be to all agree we will use the description catholic-Roman, catholic-Baptist, catholic-Lutheran etc. 😛
 
tgGodsway said:
I go away for a few hours and y’all chop me up for dinner. I am in the body of Christ and my circle of believing friends are with me all around the world. There are tens of millions of us. We are Catholic in that sense. You use the word as a label, I use it as a concept. We do not ask Rome for permission to be in Christ nor should we. Christ body is so much bigger than the dictates of Rome.
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Proper usage would start the word with a small c…catholic.🙂
 
tgGodsway said:
Yes, I agree. The Eucharist is not my custom or belief. I follow the teachings of the earliest Apostles and Jesus Christ. I do partake of holy Communion but not as a perpetual bloodless sacrifice. Jesus is the final lamb needed to take away sins penalty. He did so two thousand years ago. It is finished. 😁
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Pull would disagree with you.
 
Wannano:
Have a look at Romans 10: 8,9, and 10.
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There you go again.

Appealing to verses that explicitly call for a “work” to try to say that NO WORKS are necessary:shrug:.

In this case it is the “work” of confessing Christ with your lips (according to your state in life).

A “work” incidentally, that I agree with St. Paul on (but unfortunately you and so many others, do not affirm such passages for what they say).

ROMANS 10:8-10 8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your (that is, the word of faith which we preach); 9 because,** if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord** and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

Wannano. Romans 10 does not teach justification by faith ALONE.

Nor does ANY verse.

So the question remains.

1 WHY say something St. Paul never says?
  1. And WHY ignore what St. Paul DOES say?
  2. And WHY say something that directly CONTRADICTS St. James?
WHY formulate a whole tradition of men whose very foundation violates all three of these questions?
 
James248 said:
Pull would disagree with you.
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James248 said:
As for the sacrificial nature of the Mass, Paul explains this in 1 Cortinthians 10:14-21.

14 Therefore, my beloved, shun the worship of idols. 15 I speak as to sensible men; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation[e] in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation[f] in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Consider the practice of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? 19 What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons.[g] 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?
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tgGodsway:
You have been saved in SPIRIT from the PENTALTY of sin = JUSTIFICATION
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I’ve got to admit I am quite dissapointed with this answer. Not for what it affirms (forgiveness of sins–I affirm that too).

I am disappointed for what it leaves OUT.

It leaves OUT, becoming partakers of the Divine nature by virtue of Christ coming and living within us (and we in Him).
You also said . . . .
You are being saved in your SOUL from the POWER of sin = SANCTIFICATION
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And I want to ask you is that “sanctification” NECESSARY? (I affirm “belief” is necessary too. “Belief” in Christ and belief in ALL that He teaches us).

And must you COOPERATE with that sanctification? (St. Paul in 2nd Corinthians 6:1 says you must cooperate or “work together” with Christ).

St. Paul says your sanctification SAVES you so naturally I affirm it.

You affirm your sanctification saves you too don’t you? (Because “sanctification” is part of a lifelong process.)

2nd THESSALONIANS 2:13 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit AND belief in the truth. . . . 15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
 
The other thing I’ve been disappointed by in this thread is our Protestant friends attempting to portray all “works” as being equivalent.

We have seen a lot of ink spilled about how “works of law” (such as circumcision in Romans 3 and Galatians 2) cannot save you.

The problem is, Catholics ALSO assert this inability.

We have also seen works on your OWN apart from grace as being unable to save you (such as Ephesians 2:8-9 discusses).

But Catholics already assert that as well.

But when I bring up works after initial salvation, works sown united to Christ, I get ignored, or I get straw man answers that continues to (falsely) portray all works as works done on your own.

But this equivocation of all workings goes against the teachings of St. Paul.

GALATIANS 6:7-8 7 Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

So that yet again leaves us with the still unanswered questions . . . .
  1. WHY say something St. Paul never says?
  2. And WHY ignore what St. Paul DOES say?
  3. And WHY say something that directly CONTRADICTS St. James?
WHY formulate a whole tradition of men whose very foundation violates all three of these questions?
 
tgGodsway said:
Yes, I agree. The Eucharist is not my custom or belief. I follow the teachings of the earliest Apostles and Jesus Christ. I do partake of holy Communion but not as a perpetual bloodless sacrifice. Jesus is the final lamb needed to take away sins penalty. He did so two thousand years ago. It is finished. 😁
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I agree with James248, in post #998. St Paul clearly expresses the sacrificial nature of His Eucharistic meal.

And yes, of course I believe Jesus is the Lamb needed to take away sin’s penalty. It happened once and for all. We participate in the gift of Jesus’ offering. All merit, salvation, justification, forgiveness, and grace comes through that mighty work of mercy! Amen!
 
Cathoholic said:
Wannano:

There you go again.

Appealing to verses that explicitly call for a “work” to try to say that NO WORKS are necessary:shrug:.
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I would appreciate if you would show me where I have ever claimed that “no works” are necessary. I could also condescendingly say “there you go again.” 🤷
ROMANS 10:8-10 8 But what does it say? The word is near you, on your lips and in your (that is, the word of faith which we preach); 9 because,** if** you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
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Wannano. Romans 10 does not teach justification by faith ALONE.
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Nor does ANY verse.
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Did I say it did? This verse says we are justified by believing with our heart.
 
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