JW stopped by my house......

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I personally have a JW who stops by on a regular basis…She is a wonderful person. Full of the Lord…no doubt!!! Do I agree with what she has to say? no…but sometimes, yes. I must admit that I respect her conviction to go forth and preach the good news. I know no Catholic group that puts themselves out there like our brothers in the JW faith. I am not saying that they are misguided in what they hold as truth…but yet this woman has been nothing but kind, genital and loving. She knows I’m Catholic and yet all we talk about is what we agree upon. I pray that the Lord may yet revile to her wholeness of faith, The One Holy Apostolic Faith, But in way way would I ever SAY TO HER that she is a member of some cult!!! I personally don’t feel that is the message that Jesus gave to us. Go forth and preach the Good News. I love this person as I am commanded to do so. And she makes it rather easy. Truly I say unto all…We all must walk this path and find truth where it is presented to us!! I Love all of God’s creation…Don’t you all think that is what we are called to do? I repeat , I am a Roman Catholic who knows that by the grace of God I was given the True Faith…but that doesn’t mean that I do not see Jesus in EaCH AND EVERY PERSON who I encounter.
I Pray daily that we all become more holy and understand not all of us are on the same path.To who is given much, Much is expected!!! Remember that my Catholic brothers.
 
Pharos963 said:
I personally have a JW who stops by on a regular basis…She is a wonderful person. Full of the Lord…no doubt!!! Do I agree with what she has to say? no…but sometimes, yes. I must admit that I respect her conviction to go forth and preach the good news. I know no Catholic group that puts themselves out there like our brothers in the JW faith. I am not saying that they are misguided in what they hold as truth…but yet this woman has been nothing but kind, genital and loving. She knows I’m Catholic and yet all we talk about is what we agree upon. I pray that the Lord may yet revile to her wholeness of faith, The One Holy Apostolic Faith, But in way way would I ever SAY TO HER that she is a member of some cult!!! I personally don’t feel that is the message that Jesus gave to us. Go forth and preach the Good News. I love this person as I am commanded to do so. And she makes it rather easy. Truly I say unto all…We all must walk this path and find truth where it is presented to us!! I Love all of God’s creation…Don’t you all think that is what we are called to do? I repeat , I am a Roman Catholic who knows that by the grace of God I was given the True Faith…but that doesn’t mean that I do not see Jesus in EaCH AND EVERY PERSON who I encounter.
I Pray daily that we all become more holy and understand not all of us are on the same path.To who is given much, Much is expected!!! Remember that my Catholic brothers.
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You sound like a such a dear person. And I agree, we DO need to see Jesus in everyone. Certainly He loves your JW friend and how wonderful that she has YOU, such a good example of His love for her.

I cannot stress enough though how careful you must be. There is not a single thing in their doctrines that Catholics would agree with. They’ve got it completly wrong on all counts and it worries me that you say you believe some of what she says. Remember, Satan is so cunning… we have the example in the book of Genesis of him twisting scripture to trick Eve. He did the same with Jesus … twisted scripture when he tempted Him. Sadly, the JWs are used by Satan to pull people OUT of Christ’s Church. The vast majority of JWs are former Catholics. The first time the JW knocked on their door, I’m certain that none of them said, “Well ok then… I will leave my Catholic Faith today… sign me up as a JW.” It took months and sometimes years of the very nice, kind JW, calling on them week after week for them to finally make the swtich. By that time the Catholic is completely brainwashed. The same could happen to you. 😦

The JWs are lovely people, espeically to those who invite them into their homes. That is their #1 goal and I’m certain your JW friend is thrilled to have that sort of relationship with you. Does she pray with you? If so, I wonder what she’d say if you asked if you could say the prayer? If she is truly your friend, the relationship should be equal, right?

I have prayed for you… that you wouldn’t fall prey to the “kindness” of someone who’d like nothing more than to lead you right out of the Catholic Church and into the Kingdom Hall. This is a subject I am all too familar with, friend. Trust me.
 
Hi All,

I just wanted to jump in here. I have been reading some of the posts here.

The JW’s don’t respect our flag or fight for our country but they are the first to take their troubles to Washington DC. It is because of our men and women who DO fight for our country that the JW’s have the freedom to take their problems to Washington.

I have read their Bible Teach book and there are some things that as a Catholic I can agree with but they spend a lot of time denigrating the Roman Catholic Church by name. Also the Trinity and Jesus as God. They doth protest too much. I wonder who they are trying to convince that Jesus is not God or that the Trinity is a myth of the Catholic Church unsuspecting people or themselves?

There. I got that off my chest and now I feel better.
Thanks
Jeanne
 
You sound like a such a dear person. And I agree, we DO need to see Jesus in everyone. Certainly He loves your JW friend and how wonderful that she has YOU, such a good example of His love for her.

I cannot stress enough though how careful you must be. There is not a single thing in their doctrines that Catholics would agree with. They’ve got it completly wrong on all counts and it worries me that you say you believe some of what she says. Remember, Satan is so cunning… we have the example in the book of Genesis of him twisting scripture to trick Eve. He did the same with Jesus … twisted scripture when he tempted Him. Sadly, the JWs are used by Satan to pull people OUT of Christ’s Church. The vast majority of JWs are former Catholics. The first time the JW knocked on their door, I’m certain that none of them said, “Well ok then… I will leave my Catholic Faith today… sign me up as a JW.” It took months and sometimes years of the very nice, kind JW, calling on them week after week for them to finally make the swtich. By that time the Catholic is completely brainwashed. The same could happen to you.

The JWs are lovely people, espeically to those who invite them into their homes. That is their #1 goal and I’m certain your JW friend is thrilled to have that sort of relationship with you. Does she pray with you? If so, I wonder what she’d say if you asked if you could say the prayer? If she is truly your friend, the relationship should be equal, right?

I have prayed for you… that you wouldn’t fall prey to the “kindness” of someone who’d like nothing more than to lead you right out of the Catholic Church and into the Kingdom Hall. This is a subject I am all too familar with, friend. Trust me.

Hi Yellowbird,
Thanks for the post. I am sure that you have the best of intentions and I will always happily accept your prayers. I can reassure you that it would take more then an army of anyone to change who I am. I am strong in the faith. I know who I am. I am now and will always be, God willing, a Roman Catholic!
But once again I would like to say that not everyone of us is on the same path. I’ve read this whole thread and find some of it to be disturbing. I haven’t meet to many fellow Christians who exemplify a more Christ like attitude more then my JW friend.We must remember that each of us is an ambassador of the faith to everyone we meet. Whether we accept what anyone says is up to us as an individual.
Did you every think that I might be trying to lead this person to the reality of the wholeness of the faith? I think Jesus puts people into our lives so that we all might come to know Him better. I feel the best way for me to do this is to listen, and talk about things we have in common. And with some genital guidance and love I might show this person what I know to be truth. One thing I am sure of is that I won’t do it by saying" Hey your in a cult, and what you believe is wrong". No I feel if I extended to her the same love and kindness that our Lord would show I might lead her to the wholeness of faith.
Remember My fellow Catholics of who much is given, Much more is expected!!!
 
cajundaegoes said:
WOW! Glad to hear there are SOME JW’s willing to learn!!! I know all about not allowing a blood transfusion! As a nurse in a NICU, we would obtain court orders in order to transfuse JW’s premature babies because they are not able to produce there own red blood cells and must receive blood. I had one JW’s grandmother stand at the bedside and say that this child was “DAMNED” because the child received a blood transfusion! I stated (LOUDLY, I might add) “No, this child NOT damned! He is an innocent baby! How can you say that?!” She walked away from the bedside and I never saw her again. 🤷 I always feared how that child would be treated for the rest of his life. Would he be an outcast because according to their beliefs he is 'damned"? Tears my heart out…:(. So much of their religion is filled with sadness. I cannot believe God wanted us to be sad all the time! Didn’t Jesus go to weddings and dinner at peoples houses and have fun? So much I don’t understand and never will. My heart breaks especially for their children. They are never made to feel special, singled out. So sad…
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Wow! I can understand the emotional difficulty you must be in when facing JWs who’d rather die and let their children die than get blood transfusion! It is sad indeed. 😦 My heart goes out to their children as well…
 
Bob4BVM said:
DJ Dave-
If you and other JW’s are so convinced you are right , you should have NO problem with this suggestion:
Suggest to your leaders that every adult JW should take a year “off” to study the theology of mainstream Christianity- Catholic & Protestant - for the purpose of better understanding their views on all these issues we seem to be debating. This should be done at a variety of Protestant & Catholic schools and colleges, so that they get the real, unadulterated scoop.
Then, the average JW will be better equipped to go out and evangelize others.
Please try this with your leadership and let us know their response.
Or, if YOU are the leadership, why not go for it.
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in reading all of these posts, you are all speaking of things you do not understand.

we have thousands of articles regarding every belief on the planet…what did Jesus say…did he say study opposers?..no he said, (Matthew 15:13-15).: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

If there are any truly sincere people that want too really know how we view most of the doctorines please visit

jehovah.to/xlation/index.html

jehovah.to/exe/

scripturaltruths.com/

web.archive.org/web/20040205094429/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/index.htm

Or back up and read all of my posts.
Click to expand...
 
dj_dave said:
in reading all of these posts, you are all speaking of things you do not understand.

we have thousands of articles regarding every belief on the planet…what did Jesus say…did he say study opposers?..no he said, (Matthew 15:13-15).: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”
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What a great scripture! Your elders are blind and are leading their flocks astray. The blind leading the blind. I hope that one day you will all realize the truth and come home to the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus and not Mr. Russell.

God Bless
Jeanne
 
yellowbird said:
Yes, the JWs do preach that the United Nations is “the disgusting thing that causes desolation” spoken of by Daniel and Jesus, as well as “the image of the wild beast” described in Revelation which is due to experience God’s judgment." A Resolution in 1963 had Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide promise to keep free from any attachments to this entity. (published in the WT Nov 15)
So WHY did the Watchtower Society actually apply for and receive associate status at the United Nations / Dept. of Public Information in 1992? Since the JWs consider this an evil organization, why would they want anything to do with them?? So much for being no part of the world… ? The were able to keep the membership a secret for 10 years, but then it hit the fan, so to speak and when everyone cried foul, they pulled away from their association with the UN.
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The rest of the story yellowbird, (Job 2:10) .“As one of the senseless women speaks, you speak also...

randytv.com/secret/wt11012001.jpg

Spokespersons at the Witness’ headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, has since explained that:

*“Our purpose for registering with the [United Nations] Department of Public Information as a nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 1991 **was to have access to research material available on health, ecological, and social problems at the United Nations library facilities. **We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access. Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs. Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that 'association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status.” Still, the Criteria for Association of NGOs-at least in their latest version-contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration. We are grateful that this matter was brought to our attention."

As for your other foolish comment…thegaryhalbertletter.com/Newsletters/2005/09-02-05.htm

jw-media.org/people/contribute.htm*
[/QUOTE]
 
dj_dave said:
The rest of the story yellowbird, (Job 2:10) .“As one of the senseless women speaks, you speak also...

randytv.com/secret/wt11012001.jpg

Spokespersons at the Witness’ headquarters in Brooklyn, NY, has since explained that:

*“Our purpose for registering with the [United Nations] Department of Public Information as a nongovernmental organization (NGO) in 1991 **was to have access to research material available on health, ecological, and social problems at the United Nations library facilities. ***We had been using the library for many-years prior to 1991, but in that year it became necessary to register as an NGO to have continued access. Registration papers filed with the United Nations that we have on file contain no statements that conflict with our Christian beliefs. Moreover, NGOs are informed by the United Nations that 'association of NGOs with the DPI does not constitute their incorporation into the United Nations system, nor does it entitle associated organizations or their staff to any kind of privileges, immunities or special status.” Still, the Criteria for Association of NGOs-at least in their latest version-contain language that we cannot subscribe to. When we realized this, we immediately withdrew our registration. We are grateful that this matter was brought to our attention."

As for your other foolish comment…thegaryhalbertletter.com/Newsletters/2005/09-02-05.htm

jw-media.org/people/contribute.htm

Now now. If you can’t stand the heat (comments), then get out of the kitchen (i.e. this forum). :tsktsk:
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JeanneH said:
What a great scripture! Your elders are blind and are leading their flocks astray. The blind leading the blind. I hope that one day you will all realize the truth and come home to the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus and not Mr. Russell.
God Bless
Jeanne
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Mr. Russell WAS USED IN FULFILLMENT OF DAN. 12:4 nothing more.

As for “the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus” see get the whole story of what the Church fathers really said completely

Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day. The following quotation is representative of the overall view espoused by this great teacher and theologian:

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

Augustine could not be clearer in his interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16. In his view, Peter is representative of the whole Church. The rock is not the person of Peter but Christ himself. In fact, in the above statements, in exegeting Matthew 16, he explicitly says that Christ did not build his Church on a man, referring specifically to Peter. If Christ did not build his Church on a man then he did not establish a papal office with successors to Peter in the bishops of Rome. Again, if one examines the documentation from the writings of Augustine that are provided in Jesus, Peter and the Keys, this particular reference will not be found. Clearly, the authors neglected to provide such documentation because it completely undermines their position. The following extensive documentation reveals that Augustine taught that Peter was simply a figurative representative of the Church, not its ruler—a view reminiscent of Cyprian:
MORE? SEE:

christiantruth.com/mt16.html
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dj_dave said:
Mr. Russell WAS USED IN FULFILLMENT OF DAN. 12:4 nothing more. :rotfl:

As for “the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus” see get the whole story of what the Church fathers really said completely

Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day. The following quotation is representative of the overall view espoused by this great teacher and theologian:

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

Augustine could not be clearer in his interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16. In his view, Peter is representative of the whole Church. The rock is not the person of Peter but Christ himself. In fact, in the above statements, in exegeting Matthew 16, he explicitly says that Christ did not build his Church on a man, referring specifically to Peter. If Christ did not build his Church on a man then he did not establish a papal office with successors to Peter in the bishops of Rome. Again, if one examines the documentation from the writings of Augustine that are provided in Jesus, Peter and the Keys, this particular reference will not be found. Clearly, the authors neglected to provide such documentation because it completely undermines their position. The following extensive documentation reveals that Augustine taught that Peter was simply a figurative representative of the Church, not its ruler—a view reminiscent of Cyprian:
MORE? SEE:

christiantruth.com/mt16.html
Click to expand...
So, when Jesus Himself said “You are the rock, and upon it etc.”, He was wrong? You take the word of a theologian (a Catholic Saint BTW) in his interpretations over what Jesus said himself? :confused: Look again at Augustine, and while you’re at it, look up what the other church fathers had to say as well. My guess however is that you’ll cherry pick from them what you want, like you did in your above posting.

You people just can’t stand that the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox churches) is Christ’s true church, and you make up all sorts of nonsense to repudiate its teachings and history. I bet if you go to Jerusalem, you’ll be visiting the Garden “tomb” instead of where our Lord was actually buried. Your fantasies are both amusing and sad… the Greeks probably have a word for that.
 
dj_dave said:
As for your other foolish comment…thegaryhalbertletter.com/Newsletters/2005/09-02-05.htm

jw-media.org/people/contribute.htm
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OMGosh, you want me to take the word of who? An internet blogger to prove your point? :rotfl: Oh puleez. You can do better than that can’t you? Tell me about all the charitable work the Watchtower Society oversees. The hospitals? The orphanages? The social programs to help the needy? Crisis pregnancy centers… shelter for the homeless… Food banks? Legal help for the poor? Because those are the sorts of things CATHOLIC charities provide. If you do a search, you’ll see that Catholic Charities USA gets a FOUR star rating. I tried to see how many stars the Watchtower gets from the Charity watchdog groups but as it turns out, of course it’s not listed as being involved with the poor, the hungry or the needy.

How SHOCKING is that :eek: ?? Not.
 
dj_dave said:
in reading all of these posts, you are all speaking of things you do not understand.

we have thousands of articles regarding every belief on the planet…what did Jesus say…did he say study opposers?..no he said, (Matthew 15:13-15).: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

If there are any truly sincere people that want too really know how we view most of the doctorines please visit

jehovah.to/xlation/index.html

jehovah.to/exe/

scripturaltruths.com/

web.archive.org/web/20040205094429/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/index.htm

Or back up and read all of my posts.
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Looks like they’re afraid to take up the challenge…🤷 It’s different when you just do your own reading. Try studying by being taught by both Catholic and Protestant theologians/bible scholars/professors. Be open to understanding and observe the established methods of biblical hermeneutics.
 
dj_dave said:
in reading all of these posts, you are all speaking of things you do not understand.

we have thousands of articles regarding every belief on the planet…what did Jesus say…did he say study opposers?..no he said, (Matthew 15:13-15).: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

If there are any truly sincere people that want too really know how we view most of the doctorines please visit

jehovah.to/xlation/index.html

jehovah.to/exe/

scripturaltruths.com/

web.archive.org/web/20040205094429/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/index.htm

Or back up and read all of my posts.
Click to expand...
My friend,
I’m afraid it is you who do not understand. And there is very much that you do not understand. That is why i was sincere when I made the suggestion to seek an independent education to understand the Christian faith.

By the way, I HAVE read all of your posts. There is much you do not understand.
Or should I say WILL NOT understand ? DO they give you a choice at WT ?

Before you go bashing the RCC, perhaps in your charity you might learn a bit about it, about the Liturgy, which has been practiced as it was by the Apostles 2000 years ago, as stated in the Gospels.
And when you take time to see what the Holy Mass is all about, please consider this… as hard to believe as it might be, ask yourself " what if it is True ?"
Our duty as Christians is to always seek the Truth, and when we find it, to live by it.
+Peace, you are in my prayers Dave,
Bob
 
dj_dave said:
Mr. Russell WAS USED IN FULFILLMENT OF DAN. 12:4 nothing more.

As for “the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus” see get the whole story of what the Church fathers really said completely

Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day. The following quotation is representative of the overall view espoused by this great teacher and theologian:

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

Augustine could not be clearer in his interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16. In his view, Peter is representative of the whole Church. The rock is not the person of Peter but Christ himself. In fact, in the above statements, in exegeting Matthew 16, he explicitly says that Christ did not build his Church on a man, referring specifically to Peter. If Christ did not build his Church on a man then he did not establish a papal office with successors to Peter in the bishops of Rome. Again, if one examines the documentation from the writings of Augustine that are provided in Jesus, Peter and the Keys, this particular reference will not be found. Clearly, the authors neglected to provide such documentation because it completely undermines their position. The following extensive documentation reveals that Augustine taught that Peter was simply a figurative representative of the Church, not its ruler—a view reminiscent of Cyprian:
MORE? SEE:

christiantruth.com/mt16.html
Click to expand...
Goodness !
What Bible are you reading !
Are you for real ?
You really need to do yourself at least this one favor-
Get a list of the “alterations” to scripture made by the JW’s who ‘translated’ the Holy Bible (lists are available from many sources, including but not limited to Catholic Answers website); then take your NWT ‘bible’ and sit down with ANY other translation- the KJV, NAB, DR, better yet use ALL other translations-----and compare the NWT’s altered verses with any other translation. See if you can feel good about the “alterations” after comparing the JW changes to what other Bibles have had to say for 1600+ years.
Your posts lead me to believe that you need to at least look at what the rest of Christianity has to say.
The Bible has some pretty strong warnings against those who would alter the Word of God !
 
dj_dave said:
Mr. Russell WAS USED IN FULFILLMENT OF DAN. 12:4 nothing more.

As for “the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus” see get the whole story of what the Church fathers really said completely

Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day. The following quotation is representative of the overall view espoused by this great teacher and theologian:

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

Augustine could not be clearer in his interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16. In his view, Peter is representative of the whole Church. The rock is not the person of Peter but Christ himself. In fact, in the above statements, in exegeting Matthew 16, he explicitly says that Christ did not build his Church on a man, referring specifically to Peter. If Christ did not build his Church on a man then he did not establish a papal office with successors to Peter in the bishops of Rome. Again, if one examines the documentation from the writings of Augustine that are provided in Jesus, Peter and the Keys, this particular reference will not be found. Clearly, the authors neglected to provide such documentation because it completely undermines their position. The following extensive documentation reveals that Augustine taught that Peter was simply a figurative representative of the Church, not its ruler—a view reminiscent of Cyprian:
MORE? SEE:

christiantruth.com/mt16.html
Click to expand...
Dave,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Catholic Church
WAS founded by Jesus Christ, aka G-O-D.
That is pretty clear in Scripture.
Peter was the first leader of the Church, he was succeeded by a long unbroken line of popes to this very day.
That much is HISTORY. No honest historian would dispute that claim.
Many are surprised to learn that, I know I was when I became a Catholic.
There are many more pleasant surprises awaiting you in the Church- you are most welcome here- come check it out !
Most RCC’s celebrate the Mass every day of the year. Call you local parish for Mass times.
 
dj_dave said:
Mr. Russell WAS USED IN FULFILLMENT OF DAN. 12:4 nothing more.

As for “the Catholic Church that was founded by Jesus” see get the whole story of what the Church fathers really said completely

Clearly Augustine is repudiating a previously held position, adopting the view that the rock was Christ and not Peter. This became his consistent position. He does leave the interpretation open for individual readers to decide which was the more probable interpretation but it is clear what he has concluded the interpretation should be and that he believes the view that the rock is Christ is the correct one. The fact that he would even suggest that individual readers could take a different position is evidence of the fact that after four hundred years of church history there was no official authoritative Church interpretation of this passage as Vatican One has stated. Can the reader imagine a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church today suggesting that it would be appropriate for individuals to use private interpretation and come to their own conclusion as to the proper meaning of the rock of Matthew 16? But that is precisely what Augustine does, although he leaves us in no doubt as to what he, as a leading bishop and theologian of the Church, personally believes. And his view was not a novel interpretation, come to at the end of his life, but his consistent teaching throughout his ministry. Nor was it an interpretation that ran counter to the prevailing opinion of his day. The following quotation is representative of the overall view espoused by this great teacher and theologian:

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

Augustine could not be clearer in his interpretation of the rock of Matthew 16. In his view, Peter is representative of the whole Church. The rock is not the person of Peter but Christ himself. In fact, in the above statements, in exegeting Matthew 16, he explicitly says that Christ did not build his Church on a man, referring specifically to Peter. If Christ did not build his Church on a man then he did not establish a papal office with successors to Peter in the bishops of Rome. Again, if one examines the documentation from the writings of Augustine that are provided in Jesus, Peter and the Keys, this particular reference will not be found. Clearly, the authors neglected to provide such documentation because it completely undermines their position. The following extensive documentation reveals that Augustine taught that Peter was simply a figurative representative of the Church, not its ruler—a view reminiscent of Cyprian:
MORE? SEE:

christiantruth.com/mt16.html
Click to expand...
HMMMM
I DID say that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus so what is the problem with Peter and rock?
 
I think his point was to diminish Peter’s role.

JW’s get in trouble if they explore for themselves. They can only study what they are told they should.

The CC has banned books, too, but it is more of a tool to identify literature that is blasphemous and the like. People are not monitored, reported and “disfellowshipped” for it.

I understand the notion of protecting children in formation from material that opposes a person’s Faith. There comes a time when alternatives should be explored. This is what does not happen with JW’s. The adults are treated like children, and WT is the parent.
The Church hierarchy is similar, but, there isn’t the system of intimidation and control as with the WT org.

I wouldn’t be surprised if our JW friend is ambitious for a leadership role in his church and that he is being monitored by his superiors for his abiltiy to debate, and such. I don’t believe it would be allowed, otherwise.

How on target am I dj?
 
Ceil-1 said:
I think his point was to diminish Peter’s role.

JW’s get in trouble if they explore for themselves. They can only study what they are told they should.

The CC has banned books, too, but it is more of a tool to identify literature that is blasphemous and the like. People are not monitored, reported and “disfellowshipped” for it.

I understand the notion of protecting children in formation from material that opposes a person’s Faith. There comes a time when alternatives should be explored. This is what does not happen with JW’s. The adults are treated like children, and WT is the parent.
The Church hierarchy is similar, but, there isn’t the system of intimidation and control as with the WT org.

I wouldn’t be surprised if our JW friend is ambitious for a leadership role in his church and that he is being monitored by his superiors for his abiltiy to debate, and such. I don’t believe it would be allowed, otherwise.

How on target am I dj?
Click to expand...
Excellent post! Amen! 👍
 
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