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Joe_Brown
Guest
Every belief that the JW have can be contradicted very easily. As you can see there is an answer to everyone of their oppositions.
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Joe_Brown
Guest
I wasnt laughing at them I desire for you to come to the true church and realize that the JW church is not the right one for you. Anyways I think I am going to bed 
God Bless you! it has been fun debating
God Bless you! it has been fun debating
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Joe_Brown
Guest
That link that you gave me states that the watchtower is not a prophetic source, but has faulty interpretation when it comes to those dates. That really is not helping. If you cannot interpret scripture right then how do you have any of your beliefs, if your church is admitting that they can’t interpret scripture?
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dj_dave
Guest
The point of the link was to prove that we never claimed to be inspired at anytime.
Some with the JW organization claimed a lot of things without JW approval. When things didn’t go their way, they left. Then many took all of their deep Bible knowledge to the churches. That is the only way the churches now have such deep Bible knowedge.
The Bible reveals that God progressively reveals his purpose not all at once.
“The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.”—PROVERBS 4:18.
“Light itself has flashed up for the righteous one, and rejoicing even for the ones upright in heart.”—PSALM 97:11.
;(Psalm 119:105)*Your word is a lamp to my foot, And a light to my roadway.
In the first century there were many progressivley revealed “flashes of light” one such appeared in connection with the question of circumcision. The practice of circumcision had its beginning in 1919 B.C.E. with Jehovah’s covenant with Abraham. God then commanded Abraham that he and all other males of his household were to get circumcised. (Genesis 17:9-14, 23-27)
So circumcision became an identifying mark of the descendants of Abraham. And how proud they were of this practice! As a result, “uncircumcised” came to be a term of contempt. (Isaiah 52:1; 1 Samuel 17:26, 27) Early Jewish Christians wanted to retain this symbol.and had quite a discussion with Paul and Barnabas about this matter. To settle it, Paul and others went to Jerusalem to consult the Christian governing body.—Acts 15:1, 2.
This time, it was not by means of an obvious miracle that those early Christians received the light that circumcision was no longer a requirement for Jehovah’s servants. Rather, they received that increased light by searching the Scriptures, looking to the holy spirit for guidance, and hearing the experiences of Peter and Paul regarding the conversion of uncircumcised Gentiles. (Acts 15:6-21)
The decision was issued in a letter that read in part: “The holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication.” (Acts 15:28, 29)
There is no question that the Gospel of Matthew, written about 41 C.E., contains many flashes of light for the benefit of its readers. Matthew’s Gospel emphasized that the theme of Jesus’ preaching was the Kingdom. And how strongly Jesus had stressed the importance of having the right motive! What flashes of light there were in his Sermon on the Mount, in his parables (such as those recorded in chapter 13), and in his great prophecy in chapters 24 and 25! All of this was brought to the attention of the early Christians in Matthew’s Gospel account, written only some eight years after Pentecost 33 C.E.
Then there was John’s Gospel, written more than 60 years Jesus’ death and resurrection. What a stream of light John threw on Jesus’ ministry, particularly through many references to His prehuman existence! Only John provides the account of Lazarus’ resurrection, and he alone gives us many of Jesus’ fine remarks to his faithful apostles as well as his heartwarming prayer on the night of his betrayal, as recorded in chapters 13 to 17. In fact, it is said that 92 percent of John’s Gospel is unique.
What flashes of light the Lord used Paul to shed on the resurrection! With what sort of body will anointed Christians be raised? “It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body,” wrote Paul. No fleshly bodies will be taken to heaven, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom.” Paul added that not all anointed ones will sleep in death but that during Jesus’ presence some will be raised to immortal life instantly at death.—1 Corinthians 15:43-53.
, in keeping with Proverbs 4:18, the revealing of spiritual truths has taken place gradually by means of flashes of light. If the large body of Scriptural truth had been revealed all at once, it would have been both blinding and confusing—much like the effect of coming out of a dark cave into brilliant sunlight. Moreover, gradually revealed truth strengthens the faith of Christians in a continuous way. It makes ever brighter their hope and ever clearer the pathway they are to tread.
CONT.
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dj_dave
Guest
[/quote]
It is remarkable to see how greatly Jehovah, by means of holy spirit, favored these early Bible Students with flashes of light. To begin with, they firmly established that the Creator exists and that he has the unique name Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Romans 1:20) They saw that Jehovah has four cardinal attributes—power, justice, wisdom, and love. (Genesis 17:1; Deuteronomy 32:4; Romans 11:33; 1 John 4:8) These anointed Christians clearly established that the Bible is God’s inspired Word and is the truth. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17)
Further, they held that God’s Son, Jesus Christ, was created and that he gave his life as a ransom for all mankind. (Matthew 20:28; Colossians 1:15; Rev 3:14) The holy spirit, ar from being a third person of a Trinity, was seen to be God’s active force.—Acts 2:17.
The Bible Students clearly saw that man does not have an immortal soul but is a mortal soul. They realized that “the wages sin pays is death,” not eternal torment, there being no such place as a burning hell. (Romans 5:12; 6:23; Genesis 2:7; Ezekiel 18:4) Moreover, they clearly saw that the evolution theory is not only unscriptural but utterly without factual basis. (Genesis, chapters 1 and 2) They also discerned that the Bible holds out two destinies—a heavenly one for the 144,000 anointed footstep followers of Christ and a paradise earth for an unnumbered “great crowd” of “other sheep.” (Revelation 7:9; 14:1; John 10:16)
Shortly thereafter, a flash of light caused the Bible Students to stop celebrating Christmas. Before that time Christmas had always been celebrated by the Bible Students worldwide, and its celebration at Brooklyn headquarters was a very festive occasion. But then it was discerned that the observance of December 25 was actually pagan and was chosen by apostate Christendom to make it easier to convert pagans.
Moreover, it was found that Jesus could not have been born in the winter, since at the time of his birth, shepherds were grazing their flocks in the fields—something they would not have been doing at night in late December. (Luke 2:8) Rather, the Scriptures indicate that Jesus was born about October 1. The Bible Students also realized that the so-called wise men who visited Jesus about two years after his birth were pagan magi.
Those early Bible Students recognized that the earth abides forever and will not be burned up, as taught by many religions. (Ecclesiastes 1:4; Luke 23:43) They also learned that Christ’s return would be invisible and that he would then execute judgment on the nations and usher in an earthly paradise.—Acts 10:42; Romans 8:19-21; 1 Peter 3:18.
In 1926 another brilliant flash of light revealed that the war of Armageddon was not to be a social revolution, as Bible Students once thought. Rather, it would be a war in which Jehovah will demonstrate his power so clearly that all people will be convinced that he is God.—Revelation 16:14-16; 19:17-21.
In 1935 a bright flash of light revealed that the great crowd mentioned at Revelation 7:9-17 was not a secondary heavenly class. It had been thought that the ones mentioned in those verses were some of the anointed who had not been fully faithful and so were standing before the throne instead of sitting on thrones reigning as kings and priests with Jesus Christ. But there simply is no such thing as being partially faithful. One is either faithful or unfaithful. So it was seen that this prophecy referred to the numberless great crowd from all nations who are now being gathered and whose hopes are earthly. They are “the sheep” of Matthew 25:31-46 and the “other sheep” of John 10:16.
In apostolic times Jesus Christ saw fit to use supernatural means to give his followers the earliest flashes of light. We have two examples of this: Pentecost 33 C.E. and the conversion of Cornelius in 36 C.E. Subsequently, Christ has seen fit to use a human agency, even as he foretold: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:45-47)
This slave could not be just one individual because he was to provide spiritual food from when the Christian congregation began at Pentecost until the Master, Jesus Christ, came to make an accounting. The facts indicate that this faithful and discreet slave class comprises all anointed Christians as a group on earth at any given time.
cont…
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Joe_Brown
Guest
Regardless of all that you posted, the thing is that the JW church cannot interpret scripture.
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Joe_Brown
Guest
Stop giving scripture references that have been interpreted by the JW. How can you justify your scripture references? There interpretation of scripture has been proved wrong so many times.
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Joe_Brown
Guest
Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit
Matthew 28:19
Matthew 28:19
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Joe_Brown
Guest
17 For the Lord is the Spirit, and wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
2 Corinthians 3:17
The Lord God is the Holy Spirit.
30 The Father and I are one.”
John 10:30
2 Corinthians 3:17
The Lord God is the Holy Spirit.
30 The Father and I are one.”
John 10:30
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dj_dave
Guest
(Daniel 12:3-4) ...And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever. 4 “And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”
We believe this ‘roving about’ began with Charles Taze Russell, true he had a lot to learn and made many mistakes in understanding, but, as I have stated truth was progressivley revealed through the “slave Class” from 1879 till now.
With regard to 1975: ‘What about the year 1975?* What is it going to mean, dear friends?’ asked Brother Franz. ‘Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah’s witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975*.-- WT 1966
It’s obvious that the situation was by no means as clear-cut as Watchtower opposes would have us believe. By omitting these more cautionary statements, many of which are in the same articles as the quotations they like to print, enemies of Jehovah’s Witnesses give a misleading picture of events and Endeavour to make a suggested interpretation look like a prophecy.
Those that ignored the “cautionary statements” sold their homes, ran up their credit cards, and tried to live a life of luxury because the “end” was coming’–it actually revealed what was really in their hearts. (Matthew 6:21) . . .For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
What then? Since the “end” didn’t come they started to “beat their fellow slaves”
with anti-Witness books and other media. Compare (Matthew 24:48-51) . . .But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ 49 and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, 51 and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.
They also took all of their deep Bible knowledge to many other churches and shared it with them…try to find a “born Agan” upstart ‘Fellowship church’ before 1975…I may be wrong but I think you will find few.
more later.
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dj_dave
Guest
There is absolutley no way you can prove our beliefs wrong…please try.
our view of the 144,000
our view of the soul
our view of heaven
our view of hell
our view of the trinity
our view Mary
Last days
what will be the sign of your “presence” --not “coming”
“Woman” Gen 3;15; Rev 12;
Paradise earth --not brand new planet
No “end of time” like the CC teaches
“other sheep” (John 10:16)
John 1:1;10:30
Michael
1914 “Jesus became King” in fullfilment of Ps 110:1
or any other currently held belief
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Ceil-1
Guest
They are proved wrong by the mere fact that they differ from the teachings of the Judeo-Christian tradition that originally taught them.
Your doctrines are corruptions of the original teachings. Bizarre ones, to boot.
Your religion “hijacked”, that is stole, these teachings and twisted them to meet the preconcieved notion of its founders and subsequent leaders. Or, perhaps, it was invented as they went along.
None of them are original ideas, such as the Buddist, Shinto, Hindu religions,etc. Even the druids had their own take on the subject. All of them have smatterings of the truth, as does the JW view. It is just that the Christian church, as expressed by the apostles, and ancient fathers, has the fullness of truth. Anyone who differs from the original teaching is a schismatic, and is teaching a falsehood.
Your doctrines are corruptions of the original teachings. Bizarre ones, to boot.
Your religion “hijacked”, that is stole, these teachings and twisted them to meet the preconcieved notion of its founders and subsequent leaders. Or, perhaps, it was invented as they went along.
None of them are original ideas, such as the Buddist, Shinto, Hindu religions,etc. Even the druids had their own take on the subject. All of them have smatterings of the truth, as does the JW view. It is just that the Christian church, as expressed by the apostles, and ancient fathers, has the fullness of truth. Anyone who differs from the original teaching is a schismatic, and is teaching a falsehood.
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Joe_Brown
Guest
The 144,000?
Once again
**
I was told by a Jehovah’s Witness that only 144,000 people enter heaven and that the rest will either live forever on earth or be annihilated. He quoted Revelation 14:1–3 and Psalm 39:10 to prove his point. How do I refute this? **
There are actually three issues to address here. The first is the number of people in heaven. In Revelation 7 and 14, we are told about a group of 144,000 people that will always be with the Lamb. If we take these descriptions of this group literally they would be only Jewish male virgins. This would mean means that Peter (not a virgin), the Blessed Mother (not a male), and Jehovah’s Witnesses founder Charles Taze Russel (not a Jew) would not be in heaven.
There are other problems with the Witnesses’ thesis that these 144,000 will be the only people in heaven. The book also shows 24 elders that surround the throne of God (Rv 4:4). This brings the grand total to 144,024. This number is increased dramatically by Revelation 7:9, which states there is a countless multitude before the throne. The number 144,000 is likely only a symbolic reference to the New Israel, arrived at by squaring the number of the 12 tribes of Israel and multiplying by 1000.
As to the question of those left on earth, Jesus never speaks of having two flocks, an earthly and heavenly class of followers. Jesus has one bride, and she is not divided into two camps. Those with their name in the book of life enter the New Jerusalem (Rv 21:27) and those whose names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (Rv 20:15). This does not leave room for a middle class. All of God’s people are together in the New Jerusalem, not part here and part there.
The references in Psalm 37 to “inheriting the land” are directed towards the promised land of Israel, which later became a type or figure of heaven. We are told by Paul in Philippians 3:20, “our citizenship is in heaven.” Those who are occupied with what is earthly will “end in destruction” according to the prior verse.
On the nature of this destruction, the JW’s book Reasoning from the Scriptures states that Christendom teaches “hell is a place . . . where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).” It then states the JW position that “they [the damned] are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain” (p. 169). The Bible indicates otherwise: "The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest (Rv 14:11); the rich man, “being in torment,” calls out, “I am in anguish in this blazing fire” (Lk 16:23-24); “there men will weep and gnash their teeth” (Mt 8:12).
When discussing these points with a JW, make clear that we were created to see the face of God; as David wrote, “As the deer longs for streams of water, so my soul longs for you, O God. My being thirsts for God, the living God. When can I go and see the face of God?” (Ps 42).
In all charity, the Watchtower’s idea that all but the 144,000 will live in paradise apart from God for all eternity amounts to a promise of an eternal petting zoo instead of the Beatific Vision. You must reawaken in them the desire for the union with God promised to all in Christ Jesus.
From ask an apologist Catholic answers
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Ceil-1
Guest
youtube.com/watch?v=AkCS1lIcobY&feature=rec-HM-rn
Take a look at this and tell me the JW isn’t a devil-inspired cult.
Take a look at this and tell me the JW isn’t a devil-inspired cult.
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yellowbird
Guest
The Bible warns us about false prophets in the book of Deut. If someone claims to speak for God and even ONE thing they say does not happen as they claim it will, the Bible says they are false prophets. Guess how many things the JWs predicted actually came true? None. Nada. Not one single thing. They have predicted the “end of this system of things” since the 1800’s… setting dates and every single time getting it wrong. For YEARS they said the generation born before 1914 would not pass away… uh-oh… guess what? It passed away.
False prophets - that’s what they are. I have ZERO interest in listening to a false prophet.
False prophets - that’s what they are. I have ZERO interest in listening to a false prophet.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Oh I most certainly recommend it as an Apologetic strategy. The Disciples were first called Christians in Antioch so the name JW is nowhere to be found in the NT. If that is God’s Divine name for his people under the New covenant, why would God wait almost 2,000 years to suddenly start using the JW name? Doesn’t this mean that 1st century Christians were not know as JW?
Why are JW’s called JW’s and not Christians? since Jw appeal to Isaiah 43:12, 44:8 for Scriptural support that they should be called this, then what was the new name prophesized in Isa 62:2? Can’t be JW, for God already used it 20 chapters earlier.
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Regardless
Guest
You make a fair point.
Yet the witnesses don’t claim to be prophets, so they can hardly be false ones.
But nothing came true? What more significant year than 1914 can you point to in the last 1000 years?
Consider: From the 1870’s the Bible students (later JW’s) pointed to 1914 as the “end of the gentile times.” (the “seven times” in Daniel)
They were just studying what the Bible said, not prophesying directly from Jehovah.
They deduced 1914 was going to be significant but didn’t know what would happen. (Imagine expectations you would have if you discovered God’s Kingdom was to be set up at a particular time.)
And of course the biggest war in world history suddenly broke out and the world changed forever.
In hindsight we see it signalled the START of the last days, not the END. Rev 12:7-12 (describing when God’s kingdom comes) fits the date like a glove. The events and conditions since fit Matt 24 and 2 Tim 3 like no other time.
But as your post demonstrates, most don’t see that. They recite wrong expectations of the JW’s and totally miss the significance of that Bible (not WT) prophesy that the JW’s were drawing attention to. Then use that as an excuse to dismiss all the JW’s teach.
Suppose someone had thought an Atomic bomb was going to detonate in New York on Sept 11 2001. Afterwards would you retort:
“You were wrong! Two planes crashed! No bomb! You are a false prophet and I will never listen to you again! Ever!”
Or would you say: “How did you know something was going to happen then?”
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
BTW, if Jw’s have the truth and nothing to fear from self-investigation, why are you officially forbidden from reading any materials that cross-examine their doctrines?
If the organization did not actually prophesy the end in 1925 and 1975, then how come so many “Witnesses” left the faith afterward?
Is it not hypocritical when you chide the “poor deluded Catholic” that his faith cannot find a bible passage to support it when the same goes for you and 1935?
Also JW’s reject most of the teaching from Russell.
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Regardless
Guest
We are called Christians.
But there must be 1000 religions, sects and cults that all call themselves “Christians” . (in the 1st century there was only one)
Today many false “Christians” follow a single human leader or are Polygamist or suicidal or militant or have turned their back on Bible moral standards…
Because of that we have names like Catholic, Protestant, Lutherian etc… To distinguish between them all.
Only one religion seems allowed to use God’s personal name to identify them though. And they happen to be doing the world wide preaching work about God’s kingdom.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Remember, there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. The Catholic church. There are 30,000 denominations out there and sorry, you are one of them. The Catholic church is universal, mentioned 2,000 years ago. also remember that ALL the other off-shoots are man-made except for the Catholic church…unless you call Jesus the Man.
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