JW stopped by my house......

[dj_dave]

The grave and the trees are talking! Isaiah uses this kind of poetic writing quite often.
in view of the foregoing, I respecfully disagree

To be absent from the body is not to be unconscious, but rather it enables one to be home with the Lord, according to Paul (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23). The body is just a tent, or tabernacle that does not last (2 Cor. 5:1-4; 2 Pet. 1:13), while man cannot kill the soul (Matt. 10:28).

I do not disagree with your understanding of these scriptures aside from the timing of their fulfilment.

As I have stated many times, we believe Paul was speaking to the ones with the “heavenly Calling” Heb 3:1 Let me explain further.

As part of his arrangement for blessing mankind Jehovah purposed a righteous heavenly government. Jesus Christ was born as a descendant of Abraham, as his most important offspring, or “seed,” and it is upon him that Jehovah has conferred kingship. (Galatians 3:16; Matthew 1:1) So, as indicated by God’s sworn oath to Abraham, it is by means of Jesus Christ that people out of all nations of the earth will be blessed.

The apostle John was given a prophetic foreview of heavenly events in which he saw others associated with Jesus Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. They, too, are part of “Abraham’s seed.” As stated at Revelation 14:1-5, they are “bought from among mankind” and number 144,000. (Galatians 3:26-29) Whom do they include? The Bible makes it very clear that it has never been God’s purpose to take all righteously disposed persons to heaven. (Matthew 11:11; Acts 2:34; Psalm 37:29) The grand privilege of sharing with Christ in the Kingdom of heaven is limited to a “little flock” who will be kings and priests with him for a thousand years.—Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6.

How did the selection of that “little flock” proceed? The gracious invitation to share in the heavenly Kingdom was first extended to the natural Israelites. But because of their lack of faith, they did not provide the full 144,000. So Samaritans and, later, people of all nations were invited. (Acts 1:8) The first of Christ’s joint heirs were anointed with holy spirit at Pentecost of 33 C.E. The selecting of this group continues until 144,000 have been sealed by God as approved. Then attention is directed to gathering persons who will live on earth as appreciative subjects of the heavenly government.Those who are heirs of the heavenly Kingdom with Christ are referred to in the Scriptures as “chosen ones,” “holy ones,” persons “anointed . . . [by] God.” (2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 6:1, 2; 2 Corinthians 1:21)

They are also described collectively as the “bride” of Christ. (Revelation 21:2, 9; Ephesians 5:22-32) Viewed from other standpoints, they are called “brothers” of Christ, “joint heirs with Christ” and “sons” of God. (Hebrews 2:10, 11; Romans 8:15-17; Ephesians 1:5) Regardless of their nationality, they are, spiritually speaking, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16; Romans 2:28, 29; 9:6-8) When Jehovah terminated his Law covenant with fleshly Israel, he brought spiritual Israel into a new covenant with himself.

But his dealings with fleshly Israel while they were under the Law set a pattern of things to come. (Hebrews 10:1) Who, then, was foreshadowed by the nation of fleshly Israel, which was chosen by God as his “special property”? The facts point to spiritual Israel, those whom God has chosen to rule with Christ in heaven. (Compare Exodus 19:5, 6 with 1 Peter 1:3, 4 and 2:9.)

With Christ they make up the agency by means of which blessings will be extended to all other obedient ones among mankind. Appreciation of this is a key to understanding the Bible.

If you are part of that “little flock” you have a great responsibility ahead of you.

More on 2 Cor 5:8…

 

[dj_dave]

More on 2 Cor 5:8…

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must ‘be away from the body and at home with the Lord’. [2 Corinthians 5:8] In that ‘departure’ which is death the soul is separated from the body. [Philippians 1:23] It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the dead.” But in the texts here quoted, does the apostle Paul say that the soul survives the death of the body and then awaits the “Last Judgment” to be reunited with the body?

At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and as you stated, speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

At 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul says: “We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.” And like you, some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. many refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But when would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44) Exegete Charles Masson concludes that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 “can be well understood then without having to resort to the hypothesis of an ‘intermediate state.’”

At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” Does Paul here refer to an “intermediate state”? Some think so. However, Paul says that he was put under pressure by two possibilities—life or death. “But what I do desire,” he added, mentioning a third possibility, “is the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.

This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.

 

[Bob4BVM]

I have already addressed this to a morman…

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Dead means dead, not just . Furthermore, 1 Peter 3:19–20 actually tells us who those “spirits” were to whom the gospel was preached:

1 Peter 3:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.END QUOTE

What does 1 Peter 3:19, 20 mean? “In this state [in the spirit, following his resurrection] also he [Jesus] went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls “souls,” KJ, Dy; “people,” TEV, JB; “persons,” RS], were carried safely through the water.” (Were those “spirits in prison” the souls of the humans who had refused to take heed to Noah’s preaching before the Flood, and was the way now open for them to go to heaven? **Comparison of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 with Genesis 6:2-4 shows that these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. **

At 1Peter 3:19,20 the Greek word for “spirits” is pneu′ma·sin, while the wordrendered “souls” is psy·khai′. The “spirits” were not disembodied*souls but disobedient angels; the “souls” here referred to were living people, humans, Noah and his household. What was preached to “spirits in prison” must therefore have been a message of judgment.) WHY WOULD THEY CALL IT A PRISON? also, why single out just these? Why not the ones that also died at Sodom and Gomorrah? What about ALL of those that have died before Jesus came to earth?

What is the meaning of 1*Peter 4:6? “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (Were these “dead” the people who had died prior to the death of Christ? As already shown, the dead are not “the spirits in prison.” Those spirits were disobedient angels. And preaching would not have benefited physically dead humans because, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 says, they “are conscious of nothing at all,” and Psalm 146:4 adds that at death a person’s “thoughts do perish.” But Ephesians 2:1-7 17 does refer to persons who were spiritually dead and who came to life spiritually as a result of accepting the good news.)

Ephesians 2:1-7, *But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, 5 made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness YOU have been saved— 6 and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus, 7 that in the coming systems of things there might be demonstrated the surpassing riches of his undeserved kindness in his graciousness toward us in union with Christ Jesus.

Further,
The death state is used to illustrate the spiritually dead condition of the world in general, so Jesus could speak of ‘the dead burying the dead,’ and the apostle Paul could refer to the woman living for sensual gratification as “dead though she is living.” (Lu 9:60; 1Ti 5:6; Eph 2:1) And since physical death discharges one from any debts or obligations existing up to that time (Ro 6:7), a Christian’s being freed or liberated from sin (Ro 6:2, 11) and from the condemnation of the Mosaic Law (Ro 7:2-6) is also likened to death, such one having ‘died’ to his former situation and obligations. The one figuratively dying in such a way, of course, is still alive physically and is now free to follow Christ as a slave to righteousness.—Ro 6:18-20; Ga 5:1.

Your next comment: "In the OT, the prophet Isaiah speaks of the condition of the dead, "Sheol underneath has become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in . . . all of them speak up and say. . . . Those seeing you will gaze even at you, saying . . . " (Is. 14:9-11). These verses indicate clearly that the dead are conscious, and the NT tells the same story.*

These verses are poetic. Consider the context: Continued…

Then you told it wrong to the Mormon too.
Your statemens give away your complete lack of understanding of basic principle of Christian afterlife.
What gives you the idea they were wicked spirits ?
Why would Jesus go to preach to souls in Hell who were committed to remove themselves from God ? He wouldn’t. The place Was was NOT the hell of the damned, but rather Sheoul, the place of spirits awaiting a heavenly resurrection. We do not know what Jesus was preaching to them about, but the obvious thing at hand was the good news of His own resurrection from the dead and the imminent opening of the gates of heaven to all those souls there. This place we refer to as (are you ready for this—) Purgatory.
Yes it is still current belief that our souls are purified in such a place after we leave here.
A necessary cleansing before the majority of us sinners could possibly stand before the face of the Almighty God.

Does the NWT also speak of Christ’s Transfiguration ?
Who were the two men who appeared there conversing with Him ? How long had they been dead ? If they were DEAD, as you describe it, how could they be there with Jesus ?

Lastly, you speak of "these spirits were angelic sons of God that had materialized and married in Noah’s day. " PLEASE, DO NOT speak that way ! God has one Son, Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, in unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity.

 

[Bengoshi]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says: “To rise with Christ, we must die with Christ: we must ‘be away from the body and at home with the Lord’. [2 Corinthians 5:8] In that ‘departure’ which is death the soul is separated from the body. [Philippians 1:23] It will be reunited with the body on the day of resurrection of the dead.” But in the texts here quoted, does the apostle Paul say that the soul survives the death of the body and then awaits the “Last Judgment” to be reunited with the body?

At 2 Corinthians 5:1, Paul refers to his death and as you stated, speaks of an “earthly house” that is “dissolved.” Was he thinking of the body deserted by its immortal soul? No. Paul believed that man is a soul, not that he has a soul. (Genesis 2:7; 1 Corinthians 15:45) Paul was a spirit-anointed Christian whose hope, like that of his first-century brothers, was ‘reserved in the heavens.’ (Colossians 1:5; Romans 8:14-18) His ‘earnest desire,’ therefore, was to be resurrected to heaven as an immortal spirit creature at God’s appointed time. (2 Corinthians 5:2-4) Speaking of this hope, he wrote: “We shall all be changed . . . during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”—1 Corinthians 15:51, 52.

At 2 Corinthians 5:8, Paul says: “We are of good courage and are well pleased rather to become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.” And like you, some believe that these words refer to an intermediate state of waiting. many refer also to Jesus’ promise to his faithful followers that he was going to prepare a place in which to ‘receive them home to himself.’ But when would such prospects be realized? Christ said that it would be when he ‘came again’ in his future presence. (John 14:1-3) Similarly, at 2 Corinthians 5:1-10, Paul said that the hope common to anointed Christians was to inherit a heavenly dwelling. This would come about, not through some presumed immortality of the soul, but through a resurrection during Christ’s presence. (1 Corinthians 15:23, 42-44) Exegete Charles Masson concludes that 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 “can be well understood then without having to resort to the hypothesis of an ‘intermediate state.’”

At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: “In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better.” Does Paul here refer to an “intermediate state”? Some think so. However, Paul says that he was put under pressure by two possibilities—life or death. “But what I do desire,” he added, mentioning a third possibility, “is the releasing and the being with Christ.” A “releasing” to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.

This can be seen from his words found at Philippians 3:20, 21 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Such a “releasing” during the presence of Christ Jesus would enable Paul to receive the reward that God had prepared for him. That this was his hope is seen in his words to the young man Timothy: “From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.”—2 Timothy 4:8.

Reading this thread makes my heart heavily burdened by JWs! It is so difficult to convince those who are blinded by the darkness…

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unvbelievers, so that they cannot see the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake” (2 Cor. 4:4-5).

Their interpretation of the passages are totally out of context. Please read “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth” by Gordon Fee and “Living By the Book” by Howard Hendricks in order to gain a good grasp of sound hermeneutic principles.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Bob4BVM;5947851:

You all seem to be forgetting that we will use anyone’s

Bible in our Earthwide Bible Study program…Also, that there are many other Bible versions that agree with our rendering of John 1:1, and other scriptures.

Please quit harping on the NWT it does nothing to add to your arguments. I have 14 Bible versions. I use them all at one time or another. BTW who was the committee that translated the KJV? Who cares? There are so many Lexicons out there ANYONE can see what the original Greek said these days. I have found that just about every scripture has a 2nd witness to it. Therefore Jehovah’s Witnesses can use anyone’s Bible to teach what they teach. If questions arise then we take the time to do research with the student at the local library…We do not as some would believe force anyone into accepting what we teach.

We merely state our belief, back it up with with what we believe are scriptures that support it, and let the students decide if it has the ‘ring of truth’ or not. We heartily welcome questions even controversial ones.

Now regarding …* “your JW NWT bible translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author*.”

CONT.

You will ???
WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT THE COMPLETELY TWISTED VERSES THAT CHANGE THE MEANING OF THE SAME VERSE in any other BIBLE ?

I have shown JWs who come here the discrepencies. The NWT verses are so butchered as to CHANGE THEIR MEANING from ANY 0ther bible. All other translations are used by various sects. Does it strike you as odd that NO other sect will use the NWT ? Only JWs.
The NWT is recognized as a monstrous twisting of meaning to fit the WTS ‘theology’.

To undermine the divinity of Christ in John 1:1, the NWT reads, " . . . the word was a god." Non-JW Greek scholars call this “a shocking mistranslation,” “incorrect,” “monstrous,” and “evidence of abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar.” Furthermore, Col. 1:15-17 has been changed to “… by means of him all [other] things were created.” If the text were left as the original Greek reads, it would clearly state that Jesus created all things. However, the WTS cannot afford to say that anyone but Jehovah created all things, so it INSERTED THE WORD “other” four times into the text.

The 1950, 1961, and 1970 editions of the NWT said that Jesus was to be worshipped (Heb. 1:6), but the WTS changed the NWT so that later editions would support its doctrines. The translators now decided to render the Greek word for “worship” (proskuneo) as “do obeisance” every time it is applied to Jesus, but as “worship” when modifying Jehovah. If the translators were consistent, then Jesus would be given the worship due to God in Matthew. 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, and Hebrews 1:6.

At the time of the Last Supper, there were over three dozen Aramaic words to say “this means,” “represents,” or “signifies,” but Jesus used none of them in his statement, “This is my body.” Since the WTS denies the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, they have taken the liberty to change our Lord’s words to “This means my body” in Matthew 26:26.

The NWT also translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author. It should also be asked why the NWT does not translate kurios as “Jehovah” in Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and Revelation 22:21. If it did translate kyrios consistently, then Jesus would be Jehovah!

 

[Bob4BVM]

Reading this thread makes my heart heavily burdened by JWs! It is so difficult to convince those who are blinded by the darkness…

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unvbelievers, so that they cannot see the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake” (2 Cor. 4:4-5).

Their interpretation of the passages are totally out of context. Please read “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth” by Gordon Fee and “Living By the Book” by Howard Hendricks in order to gain a good grasp of sound hermeneutic principles.

i KNOW, i KNOW !
Seriously blinded.
How can anyone who was Catholic for 30 years be THIS blind ?
But God does have a plan for each of us.
Our job is to try, and to pray for them.
The rest is the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bob4BVM]

Bob4BVM;5947851:

You all seem to be forgetting that we will use anyone’s

Bible in our Earthwide Bible Study program…Also, that there are many other Bible versions that agree with our rendering of John 1:1, and other scriptures.
-------end quote-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will ???
When I pull out my bible when JWs visit, we come up with some pretty drastic differences of MEANING in the NWT vs ANY OTHER version !!!
Most sects will use any bible, except the NWT because of this. The NWT is UNIQUE in its twisted meaning of some very important verses. Is that why ONLY JWs use the NWT ??
For instance:::::::::::::>
To undermine the divinity of Christ in John 1:1, the NWT reads, " . . . the word was a god." Non-JW Greek scholars call this “a shocking mistranslation,” “incorrect,” “monstrous,” and “evidence of abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar.” Furthermore, Col. 1:15-17 has been changed to “… by means of him all [other] things were created.” If the text were left as the original Greek reads, it would clearly state that Jesus created all things. However, the WTS cannot afford to say that anyone but Jehovah created all things, so it inserted the word “other” four times into the text.

The 1950, 1961, and 1970 editions of the NWT said that Jesus was to be worshipped (Heb. 1:6), but the WTS changed the NWT so that later editions would support its doctrines. The translators now decided to render the Greek word for “worship” (proskuneo) as “do obeisance” every time it is applied to Jesus, but as “worship” when modifying Jehovah. If the translators were consistent, then Jesus would be given the worship due to God in Matthew. 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, and Hebrews 1:6.

At the time of the Last Supper, there were over three dozen Aramaic words to say “this means,” “represents,” or “signifies,” but Jesus used none of them in his statement, “This is my body.” Since the WTS denies the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, they have taken the liberty to change our Lord’s words to “This means my body” in Matthew 26:26.

The NWT also translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author. It should also be asked why the NWT does not translate kurios as “Jehovah” in Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and Revelation 22:21. If it did translate kyrios consistently, then Jesus would be Jehovah!

 

[Bengoshi]

dj dave;5948832:

Bob4BVM;5947851:

You all seem to be forgetting that we will use anyone’s

Bible in our Earthwide Bible Study program…Also, that there are many other Bible versions that agree with our rendering of John 1:1, and other scriptures.
-------end quote-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will ???
When I pull out my bible when JWs visit, we come up with some pretty drastic differences of MEANING in the NWT vs ANY OTHER version !!!
Most sects will use any bible, except the NWT because of this. The NWT is UNIQUE in its twisted meaning of some very important verses. Is that why ONLY JWs use the NWT ??
For instance:::::::::::::>
To undermine the divinity of Christ in John 1:1, the NWT reads, " . . . the word was a god." Non-JW Greek scholars call this “a shocking mistranslation,” “incorrect,” “monstrous,” and “evidence of abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar.” Furthermore, Col. 1:15-17 has been changed to “… by means of him all [other] things were created.” If the text were left as the original Greek reads, it would clearly state that Jesus created all things. However, the WTS cannot afford to say that anyone but Jehovah created all things, so it inserted the word “other” four times into the text.

The 1950, 1961, and 1970 editions of the NWT said that Jesus was to be worshipped (Heb. 1:6), but the WTS changed the NWT so that later editions would support its doctrines. The translators now decided to render the Greek word for “worship” (proskuneo) as “do obeisance” every time it is applied to Jesus, but as “worship” when modifying Jehovah. If the translators were consistent, then Jesus would be given the worship due to God in Matthew. 14:33, 28:9, 28:17, Luke 24:52, John 9:38, and Hebrews 1:6.

At the time of the Last Supper, there were over three dozen Aramaic words to say “this means,” “represents,” or “signifies,” but Jesus used none of them in his statement, “This is my body.” Since the WTS denies the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, they have taken the liberty to change our Lord’s words to “This means my body” in Matthew 26:26.

The NWT also translates the Greek word kurios (“Lord”) as “Jehovah” dozens of times in the NT, despite the fact that the word “Jehovah” is never used by any NT author. It should also be asked why the NWT does not translate kurios as “Jehovah” in Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 12:3, Philippians 2:11, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and Revelation 22:21. If it did translate kyrios consistently, then Jesus would be Jehovah!

Very good brother! I totally agree! Even though we’re not of the same communion, salvation is still open to us because of our agreement with the most essential doctrines of true Christianity, unlike those of the cults.

 

[Melkite_Sword]

I have a list of Questions for Jehovah’s witnesses:

Who is the First and the Last?

Jesus (Rev 1:17, 22:13) or Jehovah (Is 41:4, 44:6) ?

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

Jesus (Rev 22:12-13, 20) or Jehovah (Rev 1:8; Rev 21:6-7)

Jehovah is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. ( Jeremiah 17:9-10) Jesus knows the hearts of all men. ( Rev. 2:18, 23)

What gives the Apostle Paul the right to attribute praises given ONLY TO JEHOVAH in the Psalms to Jesus ?

Heb 1:10-12

8 of the Son we read this…10And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens. 11They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. 12*And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail.

quoting Psalm 102:24-27

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

25 Thou in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

These verses explicitly PROVE the divinity of Christ

 

[cides23]

Bob4BVM;5950058:

dj dave;5948832:

Very good brother! I totally agree! Even though we’re not of the same communion, salvation is still open to us because of our agreement with the most essential doctrines of true Christianity, unlike those of the cults.

WOW and brother let’s pray for that unity that Christ so prayed for that we all be on as he is one of the Father so that the world may believe… we probably have these atheist and organizations that teach a different Jesus because we Christians are not PERFECTLY ONE…

Let’s pray that we one day may worship as one!!! that communion Jesus prayed for!!!

 

[Bob4BVM]

I have a list of Questions for Jehovah’s witnesses:

Who is the First and the Last?

Jesus (Rev 1:17, 22:13) or Jehovah (Is 41:4, 44:6) ?

Who is the Alpha and the Omega?

Jesus (Rev 22:12-13, 20) or Jehovah (Rev 1:8; Rev 21:6-7)

Jehovah is the only one who knows the hearts of all men. ( Jeremiah 17:9-10) Jesus knows the hearts of all men. ( Rev. 2:18, 23)

What gives the Apostle Paul the right to attribute praises given ONLY TO JEHOVAH in the Psalms to Jesus ?

Heb 1:10-12

8 of the Son we read this…10And: Thou in the beginning, O Lord, didst found the earth: and the works of thy hands are the heavens. 11They shall perish, but thou shalt continue: and they shall all grow old as a garment. 12*And as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: but thou art the selfsame, and thy years shall not fail.

quoting Psalm 102:24-27

24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.

25 Thou in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:27But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

These verses explicitly PROVE the divinity of Christ

Excellent (if a bit leading ) questions !

Brace yourself, JW will have a detailed answer that may surprise you.
The obvious is, sadly, not so obvious to all…

“The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Corinthians 1:23,24)

 

[Bob4BVM]

Bob4BVM;5950058:

dj dave;5948832:

Very good brother! I totally agree! Even though we’re not of the same communion, salvation is still open to us because of our agreement with the most essential doctrines of true Christianity, unlike those of the cults.

Thank you Ben,
You remind me that we Christians at least ARE together in the essentials.
You bring Christ’s question to Peter to mind :
"And you, Peter, who do YOU say that I am ? "

Pray for our lost brothers and sisters, that their HEARTS may be opened to the Truth.

Out of her love for all of God’s children,. our Blessed Mother also urges us to pray for them. Pray, pray, pray, until prayer becomes a joy for you.

 

[dj_dave]

Bob4BVM;
Does the NWT also speak of Christ’s Transfiguration ?
Who were the two men who appeared there conversing with Him ? How long had they been dead ? If they were DEAD, as you describe it, how could they be there with Jesus ?

Bob, Bob, Bob, you are so much fun!:

Okay, Let’s discuss the transfiguration. We read:

Referring to the transfiguration, the apostle Peter wrote: “Consequently we have the prophetic word made more sure; and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in your hearts.” (2 Peter 1:19) That figurative Daystar, or “bright morning star,” is the glorified Jesus Christ. (Revelation 22:16) He ‘rose’ in 1914 when God’s Kingdom was born in heaven, marking the dawn of a new era. (Revelation 11:15) In the transfiguration vision, Moses and Elijah appeared alongside Jesus, conversing with him. Whom do they foreshadow?

Since Moses and Elijah shared in Christ’s glory, these two faithful witnesses must represent those who rule with Jesus in his Kingdom.

The understanding that Jesus has corulers is in harmony with a visionary foregleam of the enthroned Messiah that the prophet Daniel was granted. Daniel saw “someone like a son of man” receiving “an indefinitely lasting rulership” from “the Ancient of Days,” Jehovah God. But note what Daniel is shown shortly thereafter. He writes: “The kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One.” (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27) Yes, more than five centuries before the transfiguration, God revealed that certain “holy ones” would share in Christ’s royal grandeur.

Who are the holy ones in Daniel’s vision? It is with reference to such individuals that the apostle Paul says: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.” (Romans 8:16, 17)

The holy ones are none other than Jesus’ spirit-anointed disciples. In the Revelation, Jesus says: “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” Numbering 144,000, these resurrected ‘conquerors,’ along with Jesus, will rule over the entire earth.—Revelation 3:21; 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3, 4; 1 Corinthians 15:53.

Why, though, are anointed Christians represented by Moses and Elijah?

The reason is that such Christians, while still in the flesh, do a work similar to that performed by Moses and Elijah. For example, they serve as witnesses, even in the face of persecution. (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 8:1-8; Revelation 11:2-12) Like Moses and Elijah, they courageously expose unchristian religion while exhorting sincere people to give God exclusive devotion. (Exodus 32:19, 20; Deuteronomy 4:22-24; 1 Kings 18:18-40)

**Also, some have noted that Moses represents the Law (soon to be fulfilled in Jesus) and Elijah represents the Prophets (also fulfilled in Jesus) **

Lastly, Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place a “vision” **Notice too **what was said about Peter "(Luke 9:32-33) … Peter and those with him were weighed down with sleep; but when they got fully awake they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. 33*And as these were being separated from him, Peter said to Jesus: “Instructor, it is fine for us to be here, so let us erect three tents, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li′jah,” **he not realizing what he was saying. **

Again, Jesus said “Tell the VISION to no one”

 

[dj_dave]

Bengoshi
Junior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007
Location: The Pearl of the Orient
Posts: 219
Religion: Reformed Evangelical

Re: JW stopped by my house…

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob4BVM

All nicely explained at

web.archive.org/web/20031207094230/hector3000.future.easyspace.com/index.htm

web.archive.org/web/20031210124954/users.eggconnect.net/noddy3/metzcolw.htm

agape

 

[dj_dave]

You’re working pretty hard at this Dave, but may I suggest you check your of WTS literature ? :::>>

Your own JWs’ "Aid to Bible Understanding: says, “The first recorded use of this form [Jehovah] dates from the 13th century C.E. [after Christ]. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican order, used it in his book Pugeo Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favor ‘Yahweh’ as the most likely pronunciation” (pp. 884-885). Did God change his name in 1300 ?

 

[Javl]

Reading this thread makes my heart heavily burdened by JWs! It is so difficult to convince those who are blinded by the darkness…

“The god of this age has blinded the minds of unvbelievers, so that they cannot see the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake” (2 Cor. 4:4-5).

Their interpretation of the passages are totally out of context. Please read “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth” by Gordon Fee and “Living By the Book” by Howard Hendricks in order to gain a good grasp of sound hermeneutic principles.

None are so blind as those that refuse to see, and none are so deaf as those that refuse to hear. Remember, a lie is still a lie even if everyone believes it. And the truth is still the
truth even if no one believes it. This applies particularly to those of the WBTS ( JWs ) who
are so convinced of their knowledge of scripture. Lord forgive them for they know not what
they do.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[dj_dave]

Bob4BVM;5950058]

At the time of the Last Supper, there were over three dozen Aramaic words to say “this means,” “represents,” or “signifies,” but Jesus used none of them in his statement, “This is my body.” Since the WTS denies the Catholic teaching on the Eucharist, they have taken the liberty to change our Lord’s words to “This means my body” in Matthew 26:26.

I will explain why we believe what we believe.

at the Last Supper

Matthew reports: “As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: ‘Take, eat. This means my body.’ Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: ‘Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my “blood of the covenant,” which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.

Why do we say “Means”? Look at what Jesus next says

But I tell you, I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of my Father.’ Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Why did he say that? Is he going to drink wine in Heaven with his disciples? No

"(Psalm 104:15) *And wine that makes the heart of mortal man rejoice, To make the face shine with oil, And bread that sustains the very heart of mortal man.

He will rejoce when they meet with him in heaven.

but, as you see, the point is that after drinking it…he still called it wine not his blood.

True the word can mean “is” but, can also me “Meaneth”

Original Word: ἐστί
Transliteration: esti
Phonetic Spelling: (es-tee’)
Short Definition: are

Word Origin
third pers. sing. pres. ind. of eimi, q.v.
are, belong, call, come, consist
Third person singular present indicative of eimi; he (she or it) is; also (with neuter plural) they are – are, be(-long), call, X can(-not), come, consisteth, X dure for a while, + follow, X have, (that) is (to say), make, meaneth, X must needs, + profit, + remaineth, + wrestle.

Notice too, Bob how many other Bibles say “This fruit of the vine”

tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s kingdom."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)

“But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

International Standard Version (©2008)
I tell you, I will never again drink the product of the vine until that day when I drink it with you once again in my Father’s kingdom."

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
“I can guarantee that I won’t drink this wine again until that day when I drink new wine with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

King James Bible
But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

American King James Version
But I say to you, I will not drink from now on of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

American Standard Version
But I say unto you, I shall not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

Bible in Basic English
But I say to you that from now I will not take of this fruit of the vine, till that day when I take it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I say to you, I will not drink from henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I shall drink it with you new in the kingdom of my Father.

Also there is this: (1 Corinthians 11:25,26) …” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup “is” the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.

That is one special cup! …Is the cup “the new Covenant”? Or did it just *represent *the New covenant by virtue of Jesus’ blood??

Cont with John 6:56,57

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

A nice lady, who is a Jehovah Witness stopped by my house, she came in and we started talking about the Bible …Just thought I’d share this.

Good for you for talking with her! I simply do not have the courage to do this myself. I tell them I am Catholic and they seem to go away rather quickly. Not like my mother anyway.

My Mom and her best friend who was also a Christian did Bible Study together. They used to joke about how, after converting a couple of JW they were no longer allowed to come to our house. Sure enough, they would go next door on one side, walk around our yard and go to the other side. My mother always chuckled about it, pondering what they must have said about the crazy lady at our house. )

Anyway, really … kudos for taking the time. I really admire that.
Maggie

 

[dj_dave]

That is one special cup! …Is the cup “the new Covenant”? Or did it just represent the New covenant by virtue of Jesus’ blood??

Cont with John 6:56,57

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

You notice in the narative he is speaking in a synagogue of jews (John 6:58-59) These things he said as he was teaching in public assembly at Ca·per′na·um.

Now, I know Patrick Madrid and Jimmy Akin ( whom I believe are truly sincere) and others say " Did he say he was speaking symbolically? No! He did not"

However, we believe he did…At Matthew 13:34 and Mark 4:34 34 Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them, but privately to his disciples he would explain all things.

Remember in Matthew 13 he gave alot of illustrations? Notice that the crowds went away–but the disciples privately approached him…

(Matthew 13:36-37) 36 Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37.

notice to whom he was speaking…

(John 6:58-59) . 59 These things he said as he was teaching in public assembly at Ca·per′na·um.

“public assembly” was a synagogue of jews

(Now remember I am only explaining what and why Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe what they do.)

Continuing: the jews have been raised for 4000 years not to “eat” blood. Gen 9:3,4; Le 17:11

Does it seem reasonable that Jesus would ask them to break God’s Law and expect
them to just follow what he says?

Don’t forget why the Disciples stayed with him…

(John 6:60-71) 60 Therefore many of his disciples, when they heard this, said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were murmuring about this, said to them: “Does this stumble YOU? 62 What, therefore, if YOU should behold the Son of man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh is of no use at all. The* sayings *that I have spoken to YOU are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of YOU that do not believe.” For from [the] beginning Jesus knew who were the ones not believing and who was the one that would betray him. 65 So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” 66 Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. 67 Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: “YOU do not want to go also, do YOU?” 68 Simon Peter answered him: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; 69 and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them: “I chose YOU twelve, did I not? Yet one of YOU is a slanderer.” 71 He was, in fact, speaking of Judas [the son] of Simon Is·car′i·ot; for this one was going to betray him, although one of the twelve.

we believe he was ‘testing’ the crowd’s
heart condition compare (Heb 4:12,13)

perhaps he was ‘thinning out’ the crowds’

Imagine the crowds hearing Jesus say

(Luke 14:26) 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.

His believing disciples had seen and heard enough to be convinced that Jesus was the one through whom God was making manifest the truth concerning himself and his purpose. (John 1:14; 14:6) Nevertheless, the tests of faith continued.

After Jesus’ death and resurrection, he used the apostles and others as shepherds of the congregation. These were imperfect men, and at times their imperfections were a trial to those around them. (Compare Acts 15:36-41; Galatians 2:11-14.) On the other hand, there were individuals who became unbalanced in their admiration of prominent Christians and who said: “I belong to Paul,” while others said: ‘I belong to Apollos.’ (1 Cor. 3:4) All of them needed to be on guard so as not to lose sight of what it meant to be a follower of Jesus Christ.

The apostle Paul foretold other serious problems, explaining that even within the Christian congregation men would “rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30) And the apostle Peter warned that false teachers among God’s servants would seek to exploit others with “counterfeit words.” (2 Pet. 2:1-3) Obviously, heart-searching tests of faith and loyalty lay ahead for all of Jesus’ followers.

in conclusion I just can’t see Jesus going into a synagogue of Jews and telling them that they have to break God’s Law–a law that was given even before the Mosaic Law.
(Genesis 9:3-5) 3**Every moving animal that is alive may serve as food for YOU. As in the case of green vegetation, I do give it all to YOU. 4 Only flesh with its soul—its blood—YOU must not eat. 5 And, besides that, YOUR blood of YOUR souls shall I ask back. From the hand of every living creature shall I ask it back; and from the hand of man, from the hand of each one who is his brother, shall I ask back the soul of man.*

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi;5950097:

Bob4BVM;5950058:

WOW and brother let’s pray for that unity that Christ so prayed for that we all be on as he is one of the Father so that the world may believe… we probably have these atheist and organizations that teach a different Jesus because we Christians are not PERFECTLY ONE…

Let’s pray that we one day may worship as one!!! that communion Jesus prayed for!!!

Sure, why not!? As soon as our major doctrinal and authority issues have been settled!