JW's and CHRIST'S RESURRECTION

[BibleSteve]

Since Jesus made a sacrifice and a paid a ransom…

According to Catholic understanding…what exactly did he give up?

It sounds to me that based on some of these explanations I’ve heard, he immediately took back what he paid

 

[BibleSteve]

My reading of the Bible has lead me to understand that Jesus, who was “the Word” of God, “out of heaven,” divested himself of spirit nature and “became flesh.” (Joh 1:1; 1Co 15:47; Php 2:5-8; Joh 1:14; 1Ti 3:16) That in being born as a human he was no spirit and that he did not merely assume a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past (Ge 18:1-3; 19:1; Jos 5:13-15), is attested to by the apostle John, who says that one is antichrist who denies that Jesus Christ came “in the flesh.” (1Jo 4:2,*3) In order to provide the ransom for mankind and thereby to help those who would be his associates in the heavenly calling, the Word became flesh, being born all human, no incarnation. The Bible tells us this: “Since the ‘young children’ are sharers of blood and flesh, he also similarly partook of the same things.” (Heb 2:14-16) His earthly sojourn was spoken of as “the days of his flesh.” (Heb 5:7) “The bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” Jesus said. He went on to state that those hoping to remain in union with him must ‘eat his flesh and drink his blood.’ Not appreciating the spiritual, symbolic significance of his words, some construed the statement as cannibalistic and were shocked.—Joh 6:50-60.

During Jesus’ earthly ministry, although he knew that he would be put to death as the ransom sacrifice, his flesh ‘rested in hope.’ This was because of his knowledge that his Father would resurrect him, that his sacrifice would successfully serve the ransom purpose, and that his flesh would not see corruption. (Ac 2:26,*31) Jesus did not take back his fleshly body and thereby cancel out the ransom for which it was given. The apostle Peter testifies that Christ went into heaven, the realm of spirits, not flesh, “he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit.” (1Pe 3:18) Before his ascension to heaven Christ, as a mighty, immortal spirit person, did materialize various fleshly bodies to suit the occasion, for the purpose of giving to his disciples visible, palpable evidence of his resurrection.—Joh 20:13-17, 25-27; 21:1,*4; Lu 24:15,*16.

In Paul’s letter to the Hebrews the curtain in the sanctuary before the Most Holy, which represented heaven itself, is shown to have been symbolic, representing Jesus’ flesh, for before he sacrificed his fleshly body, the way to life in heaven was not open.—Heb 9:24; 10:19,*20.

 

[BibleSteve]

Also, it’s important to note that the Scriptures make it clear that Jesus was entirely human from his birth until his death. John did not say that the Word was merely clothed with flesh. He “became flesh” and was not part flesh and part God. If Jesus had been human and divine at the same time, it could not have been said that he had been “made a little lower than angels.”—Hebrews 2:9; Psalm 8:4,*5.

If Jesus had been both God and man when on the earth, why did he repeatedly pray to YHWH? Paul wrote: “In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.”—Hebrews 5:7.

That Jesus was not partly a spirit when on the earth is proved by Peter’s statement that Christ was “put to death in the flesh, but ... made alive in the spirit.” (1Peter 3:18) Only because Jesus was wholly human could he have experienced what imperfect people experience and thus become asympathetic high priest. Wrote Paul: “Wehave as high priest, not one who cannotsympathize with our weaknesses, but onewho has been tested in all respects likeourselves, but without sin.”—Hebrews 4:15.

As “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world,” Jesus “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (John 1:29; 1Timothy 2:6) In that way, Jesus bought back exactly what Adam had lost—perfect, eternal human life. Since God’s justice required ‘soul for soul,’ Jesus thus had to be what Adam was originally—a perfect human, not a God-man.—Deuteronomy 19:21; 1Corinthians 15:22.

 

[inJESUS]

Steve, please explain to me with plain words what does a spiritual body mean to you. Is it a spirit? or a body? or a mixture of both? or what exactly?

 

[BibleSteve]

Steve, please explain to me with plain words what does a spiritual body mean to you. Is it a spirit? or a body? or a mixture of both? or what exactly?

According to what Paul says there are “physical bodies” and “spiritual bodies”… He describes “physical bodies” as being what humans have… flesh and blood… He describes “spiritual bodies” as what those who live in heaven have.

In describing the resurrection, he describes the “physical body” as coming first… then death… then a resurrection in a “spiritual body”.

Given that “flesh and blood” can’t inherit God’s Kingdom, my conclusion is that a “spirit body” is not made up of flesh and blood, but something else.

 

[inJESUS]

whatever this “something else” is, is was touched by people. Thomas put his finger on Jesus’ wound. What is a spiritual body that can be touched and has the marks of wounds?

 

[BibleSteve]

whatever this “something else” is, is was touched by people. Thomas put his finger on Jesus’ wound. What is a spiritual body that can be touched and has the marks of wounds?

After Jesus’ resurrection he appeared in different bodies. Mary mistook him for the gardener. (Joh 20:14,*15) He again appeared, entering a room with locked doors, having a body with wound marks. (Joh 20:24-29) Several times he manifested himself and was recognized, not by his appearance, but by his words and actions. (Lu 24:15, 16, 30, 31, 36-45; Mt 28:16-18) Once a miracle performed at his direction opened his disciples’ eyes to his identity. (Joh 21:4-7,*12) Jesus, having been resurrected as a spirit (1Pe 3:18), could materialize a body for the occasion as the angels did in past times, when they appeared as messengers. (Ge 18:2; 19:1,*12; Jos 5:13,*14; Jg 13:3,*6; Heb 13:2) During the days before the Flood, the angels that “did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place” performed an incarnation and married human wives. That these angelic sons of God were not truly human but had materialized bodies is shown by the fact that the Flood did not destroy these angels, but they dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm.—Jude 6; Ge 6:4; 1Pe 3:19,*20; 2Pe 2:4.

19 Now the two angels arrived at Sod′om by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sod′om. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth. 2And he proceeded to say: “Please, now, my lords, turn aside, please, into the house of YOUR servant and **stay overnight and have YOUR feet washed. **Then YOU must get up early and travel on YOUR way.” To this they said: “No, but in the public square is where we shall stay overnight.” 3But he was very insistent with them, so that they turned aside to him and came into his house. Then he made a feast for them, and he baked unfermented cakes, and they went to eating.

 

[inJESUS]

But you are being inconsistent Steve. A glorified body is neither a normal body, nor a spirit. You cannot say it is a spirit then say it takes different shapes, including a body of flesh and blood that can be touched.

 

[BibleSteve]

But you are being inconsistent Steve. A glorified body is neither a normal body, nor a spirit. You cannot say it is a spirit then say it takes different shapes, including a body of flesh and blood that can be touched.

Angels are spirit beings who have spiritual bodies… The Bible gives several examples of them materializing in bodily form, to which human observers saw what appearedd to be a fleshly body… Abraham fed angels and offered to wash their feet. Do you think that angels normally have physical bodies like this?

The point is that spirit beings with spiritual bodies (angels and Jesus) have the ability to materialize bodies…

If Jesus was simply resurrected in his physical body, it would invalidate everything Paul said and it would, in effect, mean he took back what he just sacrificed.

What exactly do you think Jesus gave up, sacrificed, never to take back?

 

[inJESUS]

Angels are spirit beings who have spiritual bodies…

do they have spiritual bodies or are they spirits to begin with?

If Jesus was simply resurrected in his physical body, it would invalidate everything Paul said and it would, in effect, mean he took back what he just sacrificed.

 

[BibleSteve]

? who said it is a matter of gain/loss? Jesus did this fir us, not for Himself. He was not waiting for a personal gain/loss.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Jesus gave up something as a ransom sacrifice.

Look in the dictionary to review these two words.

When you sacrifice you give up some of great value…

What exactly did Jesus give up? What was the price (or ransom) he paid?

Steve, Jesus did not have to SUFFER and DIE, but He chose to, that is what he “gave up” (obedience unto death, Phil 2), He gave up his human LIFE, his corpse was never destroyed. It was never burned up or anything like that. It was taken from the cross, wrapped in the normal burial custom and put in a tomb. Later the corpse was gone because God Resurrected Him and made it a glorified human body. When it talks of Jesus being made alive in the spirit that is in reference to His glorified body, His physical body could no longer undergo suffering or death, on the contrary it actually possessed powers.

This is where you are getting hung up, nowhere does it say He gave up His life such that his corpse was annihilated.

Adam and Eve were created with human bodies, that was their intended state. They were never intended to die and resurrect as spirits. That came ONLY when they corrupted themselves and God rescued them and turned that evil into a greater good such that the tricks of Satan couldnt result any more harm.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;2796993:

Jesus gave up something as a ransom sacrifice.

Look in the dictionary to review these two words.

When you sacrifice you give up some of great value…

What exactly did Jesus give up? What was the price (or ransom) he paid?

His Life.

we do say a spiritual man, spiritual book, spiritual place but this does not mean that man, book and place are spirits in matter.

 

[inJESUS]

When it talks of Jesus being made alive in the spirit that is in reference to His glorified body, His physical body could no longer undergo suffering or death, on the contrary it actually possessed powers.

exactly, so it did not become a different species but a different human body that knows no decay or suffering.

Adam and Eve were created with human bodies, that was their intended state. They were never intended to die and resurrect as spirits. That came ONLY when they corrupted themselves and God rescued them and turned that evil into a greater good such that the tricks of Satan couldnt result any more harm.

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus said to Thomas, ‘Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. **Stop doubting and believe.’ **

Thomas was doubting and Jesus told him to touch Him. Jesus simply said : yes it is me, touch me, am no ghost.

 

[inJESUS]

“Touch me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have” (Luke 24:39).

what do you understand other than Jesus is saying He is no spirit?

Jesus manifested different physical forms in order to convince the disciples that He had been raised ? what this means is that Jesus was tricking His disciples into believing that His body had been raised when it hadn’t. Second, it disregards the clear teaching of Jesus Himself who said His very body would be raised: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” 21But He was speaking of the temple of His body."

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Jesus gave up his body in it’s normal human state at his Crucifixion. But to fulfill the OT Day of Atonement sacrifice by his sacrifice, Jesus’s body had to be raised, transformed into a glorified spiritual body but still the same body, only changed and glorified, and take it, with his glorified blood, into
the HEAVENLY Holy of Holies, as the Letter to the Hebrews says explicitly that he in fact DID, in order to COMPLETE the sacrifice of Calvary.

Moreover, Jesus in Heaven is our High Priest and a High Priest MUST have something to offer at all times. What Jesus offers, perpetually in resurrection perfecttion and glorification, is his Glorified Body and Blood in the Heavenly Holy Of Holies.
He does NOT suffer and die repeatedly, in that sense he offered himself once for all. But as the OT High Priest had to take the blood of the Sacrifice into the Holy of Holies behind the Veil on the day of atonement to COMPLETE the sacrifice of the day of atonement, so Jesus, to complete his Sacrifice which began with his bloody death on Calvary, had to take his glorified body into heaven. Remember, he isn’t just the Offering, but he is BOTH
the Offering AND the Eternal Priest. He now offers himself to the Father in his Living, Glorified Body and Blood, thus completing the sacrifice of Calvary, the anti-typical Day of Atonement sacrifice, and serving as our Priest Forever according to the manner of Melchizedek in Heaven.

In the Old Testament, the bull or calf or goat or lamb was often burned up completely as a sign of it’s being given over to God.
Why would God resurrect a bull or a goat or a lamb? These things are dumb animals and (if without blemish) are TYPES of the Holy Body of Christ. When Christ, as Son of God and Son of Man, gives himself over completely to God (sacrifice) he receives his body back, glorifed, in order to complete the sacrifice by presenting it to God behind the heavenly veil in the heavenly holy of holies. As the Letter to the Hebrews clearly teaches.
Please read Hebrews 5:1-10, along with Hebrews 7 through Hebrews 9:1-12.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Hellisreal]

RESURRECTION ?

Forgive me for asking, but it sounds like the JW view is in fact, not a resurrection, but a RE-CREATION.
And, I am also confused as to who is being “resurrected” here anyway, Michael the Archangel, before he became born of a Virgin, or Jesus or?
I am just confused.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Yes, their doctrine on Jesus leaves us with no
Continuity of Persons.

Michael the Archangel existed in heaven.
Then Jehovah took Michael’s spark or “life force” (but NOT Michael himself in ANY way),
and Jehovah transferred Michael’s life-spark (but NOT Michael !!)
into the womb of the Virgin Mary.
This life-spark PLUS Mary’s egg, resulted in
the mere man Jesus, who was ONLY a man,
NOT Michael Incarnate and moreover, he had no spirit Soul either.

Now, Jesus the mere man (not Michael incarnate and with NO soul),
was killed on Calvary.
On Sunday morning God vaporized Jesus’s body instantly
into NOTHINGNESS, out of existence completely,
and re-created the Archangel Michael – who had never existed on the earth as Jesus himself. Jesus merely had his unintelligent
life-force or life-spark within him.
So where did the PERSON known as Jesus of Nazareth go?
Logically, he is GONE forever.
Michael and Jesus cannot be the same PERSON, because
Michael did not INCARNATE AS JESUS, no, but God merely transferred Michael’s** life-force **into the womb of the Virgin Mary but not Michael himself. So Michael never actually became the Man Jesus. Therefore the Man Jesus and Michael the Archangel logically **are not the Same Person **and never have been.

Now removing Michael’s unintelligent life-force from Michael
means, frankly, killing Michael so that a man named Jesus could borrow his life force from conception in Mary’s womb until the man Jesus’s death in 33 A.D. At the crucifixion, Michael’s unintelligent life-force departed from the body of Jesus and Jesus’s body on Sunday was evaporated into zilch.
And Michael, who had not existed anywhere for the past 33-1/2 years was recreated by God recreating him and **giving him back **the life-force that the Mere Man Jesus had borrowed for 33-1/2 years of mere human life on earth.

Hellisreal, I hope I have explained it well enough for you.
The more you think about it, the loonier it sounds.
But there it is.

God bless,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Hellisreal]

Thank you so much Jaypeeto. I know you have cleared up much of this with me in the past, but I ask again and again on each thread where the topic comes up so that others here who have not fully understood the ramifications of the JW doctrines on the “resurrection” will find out more about the fine details of this.


And, of course if Jesus is the Archangel Michael, it does make me wonder if they say his name in prayer when petitioning Jesus…?

Or, when praying to Jehovah and closing in Jesus’ name, as such:

In Archangel Michael’s name, Amen

I mean, if that is who he is, why not?



We can not have a conversation about the ressurection of Jesus, unless we know who Jesus was first.