JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
One last thing I forgot to mention last night. Thank you Steve for bringing up this subject and calling us all to task on our faith. I think you helped all of us become more deeply rooted in the teachings of our beloved Holy Roman Catholic Church. We had to research and question ourselves, and thus became more knowledgable, so that we can be ready to defend what we believe, as exhorted by St. Paul, the teachings of Our Lord and God through His son, Jesus, through eyes and hearts opened by His Holy Spirit who will not let the gates of Hell prevail against His Church. Amen
 
BibleSteve said:
Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one *through *whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.)

Steve
Click to expand...
:hmmm: Vewy Intwesting.

First of all, Hebrews identified Jesus as the subject of the Psalm. And the subject of that Psalm is God. Secondly, God alone created everything:

Isaiah 44:24

**24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me? **

Here God explicitly states that he created by Himself. There is no mention of an assistant creator. He even asks “Who was with me?” The obvious answer is no one. However, according to Jehovah’s Witness theology, the angel named Michael was there.

Thirdly, you did not respond to the verse from Ephesians.

God Bless,
Michael
 
You guys might find my podcasts helpful. Here is the link to it:

catholicxjw.blogspot.com/2006/05/jesus-is-god.html
Here is a description of the podcast:
Jesus is God!
A discussion on how the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in a different Jesus than the one that Christians have known and taught about for the last 2000 years. And, how the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation contradicts the Jehovah’s Witnesses teachings on who Jesus is and what Jesus is. Contemporary Christian music by Joshua Bruke “Holy, Holy, Holy”, Steven Stewart "The True Messiah and by Jeremy Gimbel “Kol Yisrael”.
Click to expand...
The second podcast that you guys might like to listen to is found at the following link:

catholicxjw.blogspot.com/2006/08/holy-spirit-is-god.html
Here is a description of the podcast:
The Holy Spirit Is God!
A discussion about the Holy Spirit and how the Jehovah’s Witnesses misunderstand who and what the Holy Spirit is. Also, a discussion on why The Trinity Doctrine is so important to Christians. Contemporary Christian Music is “Kol Yisrael” by Jeremy Gimbel, “I Testify of Him” by Feat Jenee and Steven Stewart, and “Lift Up Your Eyes” by Eddie Ramirez.
Click to expand...
In addition, much of this is covered in the articles at the links below:

catholicxjw.com/JesusYahweh.html

catholicxjw.com/Trinity1.html
catholicxjw.com/Trinity2.html

catholicxjw.com/Wordwasgod.html

catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/hiding.html

catholic-forum.com/members/popestleo/antenicene.html

Hopefully, our friend Steve will listen closely to these podcasts and read these articles closely and respond to them. The evidence is overwhelming that well before the time of Athanasius, the early Christians believed Jesus to be Almighty God and that the JWs are just rehashing the ancient heresy of Arianism. For those of you who are Catholic/Christian feel free to print the articles off my website and distribute it to people as needed. It is all free. You can also distribute the podcasts to others as needed for free as well.

Jeff S.
www.catholicxjw.com
 
I would also like to add another verse:

2 Peter 1:1 (NWT)

**1 Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith, held in equal privilege with ours, by the righteousness of our God and [the] Savior Jesus Christ: **

The New World Tranlatsion admits that bracketed words do not appear in the original text. Therefore, this verse should read like this without the [the]:

… our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Which is similar to another expression used in reference to Jesus.

2 Peter 1:11

11 In fact, thus there will be richly supplied to YOU the entrance into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Since the original text contradict Jehovah’s Witness theology, it does not surprise me that the NWT would add a “the.”

God Bless,
Michael
 
Totally deep, Mikeledes and Jschwehm. Thanks for the podcasts. May I download the podcasts to my mp3 player?
 
Since the original text contradict Jehovah’s Witness theology, it does not surprise me that the NWT would add a "the."

Sadly, this is not the only place where the NWT adds words not in the Greek to the text, which added words change the meaning of the text to fit with Watchtower doctrine.

Colossians 1:16 and 17 reads, accurately, regarding Jesus:

for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities—ALL things were created through him and FOR him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (Revised Standard Version, 2nd Catholic Edition, Ignatius)

This above is what the inspired author wrote.
But the NWT adds the word OTHER before each instance of the word THINGS. This does not clarify the meaning, which is that every THING created was created by, through, and FOR Jesus.
He is not one of the created THINGS.
By putting the word OTHER in front of things, the NWT text makes Jesus ALSO a THING, but created directly by Jehovah God. This directly alters the clear meaning of the text, which is that Jesus (together with the Father and the Spirit) IS THE creator of ALL THINGS CREATED, just as John 1 says that
“All things were created by (or thru) him, and without him was
not one thing created that has been created.”

God bless all of you (you too, Steve )
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
BibleSteve said:
Thank you for asking. Here at this scripture, along with Matt 22:42, Luke 20:41, and John 7:42 Jesus identifies himself as the mystery “my Lord” sitting next to Jehovah as mentioned at Psa 110:1-5

**As discussed earlier in this thread, Jehovah is sitting next to Jesus talking with him. I maintain that common sense indicates if John was sitting next to Mary talking to her, no one in their right mind would argue that Mary is John. **(emphasis mine) However, that is what is being argued… that Jesus is Jehovah, even though the scripture shows Jehovah talking to the person next to him.
Click to expand...
No Steve, this is incorrect. No king sitting on his **throne **would ask an inferior to sit at his right hand just to chat. This is not common sense. A king, or God the Father in this case, sitting on his **Throne **has Jesus sitting at his right hand, which makes him God the Father’s equal. Therefore, since we know there is only one God, Jesus sitting at God the Father’s right hand, makes Jesus God, not an inferior being such as a “lesser god”.
You know, I really try to understand how Trinitarians think, and I understand some scriptures can be ambiguous and take more thought and analysis. And so, I often tell people I understand how some Trinitiarians can focus on certain scriptures and believe as they do.
Click to expand...
This Psa 110:1-5 is so clear cut, I’m wondering if anyone here will at least acknowledge it exactly fits the model that JW’s believe…
Click to expand...
Steve
Click to expand...
I don’t think your trying at all to understand. After all, you the one focusing on “certain scriptures”. Your last line proves it.
 
What is NWT? If it is a Bible translation, which is it based on? Is it a translation of a translation, like the Bible Paraphrased?
Jaypeeto4 said:
Since the original text contradict Jehovah’s Witness theology, it does not surprise me that the NWT would add a "the."

God bless all of you (you too, Steve )
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
Click to expand...
 
qui_est_ce said:
What is NWT? If it is a Bible translation, which is it based on? Is it a translation of a translation, like the Bible Paraphrased?
Click to expand...
New World Translation. supposedly secretly translated by a committee–but in actuality it was almost entirely written by Fred Franz in the 1940-50’s. He was the Prez of the Org after Knorr.
Ravyn
 
So it is basically the Bible as revealed to the committe of Fred Franz in the 20ty century? Did they do the translations from the original Hebrew/Aramaic, Greek, or did they copy it from another tranlation and change/insert words that are in the commonly accepted translations, like the King James, NAB, or RSV? Does it have the approval of traditional scripture scholars?

Basically, if we would accept this version, traditional Christianity of the last 2,000 years believing in JC=God, and Jews believing in the Messiah for at least 2,000 years BC, including Moses who wrote the Pentateuch, were clueless until this NWT came out and straightened out the JW’s in the 20t century?
Ravyn_Guiliani said:
New World Translation. supposedly secretly translated by a committee–but in actuality it was almost entirely written by Fred Franz in the 1940-50’s. He was the Prez of the Org after Knorr.
Ravyn
Click to expand...
 
BibleSteve said:
Thank you for your contribution to the discussion.

It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.—Luke 11:31.
Click to expand...
Like Solomon, Jesus is a “Son of David” (Matthew 1:1). Whatever God-given titles the Davidic kings possess, Jesus the Messianic King possesses in a far more excellent and real sense.
Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one *through *whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.)
Click to expand...
I addressed this in an earlier post, but I would like to develop my point further. Let’s look at the text:

Psalm 102:24-27

**24 I proceeded to say: “O my God,
Do not take me off at the half of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing;
And just like a garment they will all of them wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn.
27 But you are the same, and your own years will not be completed. **

The author of Hebrews did not only apply the part discussing the creative works of God (v.25), but he also applied the personal qualities used to describe God to Jesus as well (v.v. 26 - 27). As I stated earlier, God Himself said that He alone created the universe (Isaiah 44:24). He also says the following:

Isaiah 42:8 (NWT)

**8 “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images. **

Isaiah 44:6

6** “This is what Jehovah has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. 7 And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and present it to me. **

God shares His glory with no one and there is no one like Him. It would be blasphemous to apply titles and passages that are explicitly about God to a mere creature. Again, Hebrews 1:8 clearly states that the subject in Psalm 102:25-77 is Jesus (i.e. "But with reference to the Son …) and the subject of that Psalm is clearly God (Psalm 102:24).

God Bless,
Michael
 
The NWT, the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, is published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and is based on the Westcott and Hort manuscripts primarily, esp for the Greek text.

Raymond Franz, Fred Franz’s nephew, named the translators in his book CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE. Their identities were an open secret at Bethel at the time, however, ---- nearly everybody knew who was on the Translation Committee.

George Gangas, one of the translators, was a Greek man, but he had never studied the Koine Greek of the New Testament, which is dramatically different from both classical Greek and from modern Greek.

The principal translator was Frederick W. Franz, who later became the President of the Watchtower Society and who died at the age of 100 years old a few years ago, in the 1990s.

Fred Franz had some college under his belt, and two or three semesters of Hebrew, but was not by any professional standards qualified to undertake a translation of the Hebrew Bible. Much more formal, professional training is required to translate the old Hebrew language, much more training than he had. He had a basic “journeyman’s” knowledge of Biblical Hebrew, but that’s about it.

The other members of the translation committee had no training in the Biblical languages at all.

Parts of the NWT, here and there, are quite good in places.
Some renderings are horrible, such as Psalm 23. Most bibles rendered it, “He anointeth my head with oil” which conveys in lovely language the fact that the King has been anointed by Jehovah with anointing oil. My copy of the NWT renders this
as “With oil he has greased my head.” Greased my head ?!?!
That is not only hideous and gross, but it doesn’t at all convey the meaning of the text that Jehovah had anointed the King with anointing oil.

So some parts of the NWT are pretty good, some parts are terrible. Unfortunately, in scores of passages, the text has been altered to better fit with already-existing Watchtower Theology.
In Colossians, which in Greek says that Christ created ALL things and is before ALL things and in Christ ALL things are held together, the NWT places the word OTHER in front of **each occurance **of the word THINGS, which changes the text from meaning that Christ is THE creator of all created things,
to Christ also being himself a thing that was created.

Especially for that reason, I cannot in good conscience recommend anybody to use the New World Translation.

God’s blessing to all of you.
Love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
John 1:1 in the NWT states:

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

Every other Christian translation says the “Word was God.” However, the NWT of this verse actually contradicts the Bible:

Deuteronomy 32:39 (NWT) states:

39 SEE now that I—I am he
And there are no gods together with me.

And yet the NWT states that there is a god with God (i.e. the Word was with God).

Isaiah 43:10-11 states:

**Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no **savior.

There are no gods together with God and there were no gods formed after Him. You can’t be clearer than that. So to say that Jesus is a god contradicts what God Himself has said.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
I apologize if I’m about to repeat what other posters may have argued. I’m new to this thread and i don’t have the time to read every single post, but I would like to add my :twocents:

Jesus is God and that is clearly taught by the Bible. One clear example of this is the application of Old Testament verses about God to Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 4:7-10 (New World Translation)

7 Now to each one of us undeserved kindness was given according to how the Christ measured out the free gift. 8 Wherefore he says: “When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts [in] men.” 9 Now the expression “he ascended,” what does it mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? 10 The very one that descended is also the one that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might give fullness to all things.

The part I highligted in blue is from Psalm 68:18. Paul is applying this verse to Jesus. Now lets look at this verse within its context:

Psalm 68:18 (NWT)

18 You have ascended on high;
You have carried away captives;
You have taken gifts in the form of men,
Yes, even the stubborn ones, to reside [among them], O Jah God.

Paul applies a verse specifically about God to Jesus Christ, thus identifying Jesus as God. Second example is Hebrews 1:10-12, which the inspired author direcly states that Psalm 102:25-27 is about Jesus Christ. Let’s read that verse within its context:

Psalm 102:24-27

24 I proceeded to say: “O my God,
Do not take me off at the half of my days;
Your years are throughout all generations.
25 Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.
26 They themselves will perish, but you yourself will keep standing;
And just like a garment they will all of them wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will finish their turn.
27 But you are the same, and your own years will not be completed.

If Jesus were not God, identifying Jesus as the subject of Psalm 102:25-27 would be blasphemy since the subject (highlighted in red) is clearly God. The same goes for the previous verses I quoted.

God Bless,
Michael
Click to expand...
I’m also waiting for a response to the first half of this post.

God Bless,
Michael
 
part 1 (of 4 parts):

bible-researcher.com/new-world.html

The New World Translation
New Testament, 1950. Frederick W. Franz, ed., New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures Rendered from the Original Language by the New World Translation Committee. Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, 1950.

Bible, 1961. Frederick W. Franz, ed., The New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, rendered from the Original Languages by the New World Bible Translation Committee. Revised A.D. 1961. Brooklyn: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, 1961. The Old Testament was originally published in parts from 1953 to 1960. The whole was revised for the one-volume edition in 1961, and subsequently revised in 1970 and 1984.

The publisher of this version has never made public the names of the translators. But former members of the Governing Body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization have identified the members of the committee as Nathan H. Knorr (President of the organization), Frederick W. Franz (Vice-President), George D. Gangas, and Albert D. Schroeder. According to Raymond V. Franz, the “principal translator of the Society’s New World Translation” was Frederick W. Franz. (1) According to M. James Penton, “to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man, Frederick Franz.” (2) Franz afterwards became the President of the organization, from 1977 to 1992, and was responsible for the revisions…

[Moderator Note: Please remember not to post entire articles.]
 
part 2 of 4 parts:

Col. 1:15-17. “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.” Because the sect teaches that Christ was a created being rather than eternal God, the word “other” is inserted several times. The first edition of the translation did this without brackets.
Heb. 1:8. “God is your throne forever” (a nonsensical statement) is put intead of “your throne, O God, is forever,” because this statement refers to Christ.
Because the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that men exercise “free will” in accepting or rejecting Christ, the version also has such forced interpretations as:

Acts 13:48. “When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.” Here “rightly disposed” (a human inclination) replaces “ordained” (a divine appointment).
In his book Crisis of Conscience Raymond Franz, a former member of the Governing Body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, describes some interesting conversations that he had with the principal translator of the version, who happened to be his uncle. He recounts that between 1965 and 1971, while engaged in preparing a Bible dictionary (published in 1971 under the title Aid to Bible Understanding), he sought guidance on a number of questions from Frederick Franz, who “was acknowledged as the organization’s principal Bible scholar.” We reproduce below several paragraphs from Crisis of Conscience (pages 21-24) for the light they shed upon the New World Translation and one of its translators, and also for the wise observations of the author concerning the interpretation of the Bible.

The Society’s vice president, Fred Franz, was acknowledged as the organization’s principal Bible scholar. On a number of occasions I went to his office to inquire about points. To my surprise he frequently directed me to Bible commentaries, saying, “Why don’t you see what Adam Clarke says, or what Cooke says,” or, if the subject primarily related to the Hebrew Scriptures, “what the Soncino commentaries say.” Our Bethel Library contained shelf after shelf after shelf filled with such commentaries. Since they were the product of scholars of other religions, however, I had not given much importance to them, and, along with others in the department, felt some hesitancy, even distrust, as to using them. As Karl Klein, a senior member of the Writing Department, sometimes very bluntly expressed it, using these commentaries was “sucking at the t-ts of Babylon the Great,” the empire of false religion according to the Society’s interpretation of the great Harlot of Revelation.

The more I looked up information in these commentaries, however, the more deeply impressed I was by the firm belief in the divine inspiration of the Scriptures the vast majority expressed. I was impressed even more so by the fact that, though some were written as early as the eighteenth century, the information was generally very worthwhile and accurate. I could not help but compare this with our own publications which, often within a few years, became “out of date” and ceased to be published. It was not that I felt these commentaries to be without error by any means; but the good certainly seemed to outweigh the occasional points I felt to be mistaken.
 
part 3 of 4 parts:

When the subjects of “Older Man [Elder]” and “Overseer” were assigned to me, research into the Scriptures themselves soon made evident that the congregational form of supervision employed by us did not conform to the first-century arrangements. (We had no bodies of elders in our congregations; one man in each congregation was the sole “overseer.”) Somewhat disturbed, I approached my uncle with the evidence. Again his response took me by surprise. “Don’t try to understand the Scriptures on the basis of what you see today in the organization,” he said, and added, “Keep the Aid book pure.” I had always looked upon the organization as God’s one channel for dispensing truth and so this counsel sounded unusual to say the least. When I pointed out that the Society’s New World Translation rendering of Acts, chapter fourteen, verse 23, evidently inserted the words “to office” in connection with the appointment of elders and that this somewhat altered the sense, he said, “Why don’t you check it in some other translations that may not be as biased.” [Later editions of the New World Translation dropped the added phrase. The first edition had read: “Moreover, they appointed older men to office for them in the congregation and, offering prayer with fastings, they committed them to Jehovah in whom they had become believers.”] I walked out of his office wondering if I had actually heard what I had heard. In future days I was to remind him of these statements on more than one occasion during Governing Body sessions.

That conversation strongly affected my approach to Scripture. I deeply appreciated the integrity toward Scriptural truth his remarks indicated. I began to appreciate more than ever before how vitally important context was in discerning the meaning of any part of Scripture, and that realization seemed to be true of others of the group who were working regularly on the Aid project. We also came to realize the need to let the Bible define its own terms rather than simply taking some previously held view or letting an English dictionary definition control. We began to make greater use of the Hebrew and Greek lexicons in the Bethel library, and concordances that were based on the original language words rather than on English translations.

It was an education and it was also very humbling, for we came to appreciate that our understanding of Scripture was far less than we had thought, that we were not the advanced Bible scholars we thought we were. I personally had been on such a “treadmill” of activity over the previous twenty-five years that, although reading through the Bible several times, I had never been able to do such serious, detailed research into the Scriptures, in fact never felt great need to do so since it was assumed that others were doing it for me. The two courses at Gilead School I had attended were so tightly programmed that they gave little time for meditation, for unhurried investigation and analysis.

Now having both time and access to the extra Bible helps, the lexicons, commentaries, Hebrew and Greek concordances, and so forth, was an aid. But above all it was seeing the need always to let the context guide, always to let the Scriptures themselves control, that made the major difference. There was no overnight change of viewpoint but, over a period of years, a gradual deepening of appreciation of the crucial need to let God’s Word speak for itself to the fullest extent possible. I could see why those one-hundred and two-hundred-year-old commentaries in our Bethel library were comparatively timeless in their value. The very fact of their verse-by-verse approach more or less obligated them to stay within the contextual meaning and thereby considerably restricted them from taking excursions into sectarian views or interpretive flights of fancy.
 
part 4 of 4 parts:

Thus the material in the Aid book relating to elders and the congregational direction in Bible times was very different from the position then held by Jehovah’s Witnesses, where a more or less “monarchical” arrangement had prevailed. The Scriptural arrangement of bodies of elders had been summarily ended in 1932 by Judge Rutherford due to a lack of cooperation on the part of some elders with the Society’s programs and policies. His position as President gave Rutherford the necesary authority to take such a stand and all congregations were invited to vote for the disbanding of bodies of elders and their replacement by a Society-appointed “Service Director.” For the next forty years there were no bodies of elders in the congregations. That is why the New World Translation of the Bible published by the Society in the 1950’s regularly used the rendering “older men” rather than “elders,” a then officially discredited term.

Bibliography

Robert H. Countess, The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New Testament: a Critical Analysis of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures (2nd ed. Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Pub. Co., 1987).
Bruce M. Metzger, “The New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.” The Bible Translator 15/3 (July 1964), pp. 150-153.
Bruce M. Metzger, “The Jehovah’s Witnesses and Jesus Christ: A Biblical and Theological Appraisal.” Theology Today 10 (1953): 65-85.
Raymond V. Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983). Contains a number of interesting remarks on the New World Translation.
  1. Raymond V. Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), p. 50. The author, Raymond V. Franz, was from 1971 to 1980 a member of the Governing Body of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a nephew of vice-president Frederick W. Franz. He wrote Crisis of Conscience after being expelled from the organization. On page 50 of the book he adds the following information in a footnote: “Other members of that Committee were Nathan Knorr, Albert Schroeder and George Gangas; Fred Franz, however, was the only one with sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self-taught in Hebrew.”
  2. M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah’s Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985), p. 174.
see website for the Forward of the 1984 Edition
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top