JW's - Proving to JW's that Jesus is God

  • Thread starter Thread starter Randy_Carson
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
qui_est_ce said:
I do not present that only God can forgive sin as a “given” The Jews at the time of Jesus believed this and that is why they called him a blasphemer.

Jesus was addressing the Jews. The Jews were outraged becase they knew only God can forgive sins. Therefore they called Jesus a blasphmer.
Click to expand...
The scripture says the scribes and Pharasees were reasoning that only God could forgive sin. Based on what we know about the Apostles being given authority to forgive sin, would you say the scribes and Pharasees were wrong on this point?

If so, would using this incorrect understanding make logical sense in trying to prove that Jesus is Jehovah?
 
BibleSteve said:
And can you please point me to a scripture where **Jesus **says “I am God”?

I can’t find one, but I do see him calling himself “Son of God” many, many times.

Steve
Click to expand...
Explain to me Biblesteve, how many “I am the first and I am the Last” are out there. Jesus did not say “I am a first and a last” He did not say “I am one of the Firsts and one of the lasts”. He said I am the first and the last. This is not a mere title. He is describing who he is (i.e. "I am). If he says He is the First and the Last, He is identifying Himself as God.

God bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
Biblesteve, if God created everthing through a creature named Jesus, then you are directly contradicting what God Himself has said about creation. He said he did it BY HIMSELF. He even asks “who was with me?” Here is another verse:

Isaiah 48:12-13

12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. 13 Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens. I am calling to them, that they may keep standing together.

Now let’s look at Hebrews 1:10-12

And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.”

Again Hebrews is not identifying Jesus as a represetative of God. It is saying that the heavens and the earth are the works of Jesus’s hands. And yet God asserts that everything created is the work of HIS OWN HANDS and that he did it BY HIMSELF. And like I said earlier, Hebrews clearly states that the subject of Psalm 102:25-27 is Jesus and the subject of that Psalm is God. Now add to that the “My Lord and My God”, the fact that Jesus identifies Himself to John using a title that belongs to God (i.e.“the first and the last.”), and that God Himself has said that there are no "gods together with Him and that He created everything by Himself. The evidence is pretty clear.

God Bless,
Michael
Click to expand...
Besides, Biblesteve, you have yet to explain this.

God Bless,
Michael
 
BibleSteve said:
Yes, I agree, their receiving authority to forgive sins was associated with them recieving the Holy Spirit.

Now, since they could forgive sins, is it fair to say that “Only God can forgive sin”?

Steve
Click to expand...
How did you miss it? It’s by the **authority **of the Holy Spirit.

Here is the earlier quote:
The whole quote is about the authority Jesus has to forgive sins. Only God can forgive sins. All the Sacraments today are performed by the power and authority (emphasis mine) of the Holy Spirit working through men (humans).
Click to expand...
 
Bishopite said:
Your claim (quoting Christian theologians) that the Trinity isn’t explicitly taught in Scripture but implicit can be just as true as the Michael Archangel/Jesus WT claim, since you say it is implicit within Scripture (I believe it is nowhere found neither do historical Christian writings. And as I said earlier, implicit truth is just as true as explicit truth yet you deny the Trinity even on implicit grounds.
The idea that Michael the Archangel is Jesus is purely subjective being their really is NO objective support for it, it is a creation from the WT. The Trinity however, has deep historical roots within the writings of the early church fathers, which is objective evidence.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree with you. There is no 100% concrete proof text that Jesus is Michael. The WT also says this. They look at various scriptures and descriptions of Michael and conclude "The scriptures point to Jesus being Michael’. Personally, I don’t argue this point because I fully realize this is a subjective, interpretive conclusion that can’t be 100% proved in Scripture. I think it an interesting idea, but since it’s not objectively proved in Scripture, I don’t argue its position.

I agree with you the Trinity idea is similar. Proponents take various descriptions of Jesus and note they are similar to Jehovah and conclude Jesus must be Jehovah. I am actually surprised at how many of the Trinity proofs fall apart so easily." They are weak and flimsy, they are based on faulty logic.

If Jesus really was a Son of God as JWs believe, it would be completely logical for him to be referring to himself having a God (Rev 3:12), sitting at Jehovah’s side (Psa 110:1-5), and being glorified by means of Jehovah (Acts 3:12). He would be calling himself “Son of God” as he always does. He would never call himself God, and he never does. If he was a Son of God, we would never find a reference to the phrase “God the Son” and we don’t.

I often read the Bible, with the idea that Jesus is God and I find I have to invent all sorts of complex explainations to hold the doctrine in place. However, if I read the Bible with the idea that Jesus really is a Son… the Son of Jehovah God of the OT, things lay out very easily. For example, each of these questions is easily answered with the understanding that Jesus is simply a Son of God, but it’s complex in trying to understand these in line with thinking that Jesus is Jehovah.
  1. Why did he say that he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent?
    John 8:42, 1 John 4:9
  2. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great Tribulation
    but God did? Matt. 24:36
  3. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer?
  4. How did he “appear before the person of God for us”? Heb. 9:24
  5. Why did Jesus say “the Father is greater than I am”? John 14:28,
    Php. 2:5, 6
  6. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying “this is my son”?
    Matt. 3:17
  7. How could he be exalted to a superior position? Php. 2:9, 10
  8. How can he be the “mediator between God and man”? 1Tim. 2:5
  9. Why did Paul say the “the head of Christ is God”? 1Cor. 11:30
  10. Why did Jesus “hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject
    himself to God”? 1Cor. 15:24, 28
  11. Who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? John 20:17
  12. How does he sit at God’s right hand? Ps. 110:1, Heb. 10:12, 13
  13. Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time”? John 1:18
  14. Why did not people die when they saw Jesus? Ex. 30:20
  15. How was Jesus dead and God alive at the same time? Acts 2:24
  16. Why did he need someone to save him? Heb. 5:7
  17. Who is reffered to prophetically at Prov. 8:22-31?
  18. Why did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven
    and on earth”? Matt. 28:18, Dan. 7:13, 14 (similar)
  19. Why did he have godly fear? Heb. 5:7
  20. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? Heb. 5:8-9
  21. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or angels minister to him?
    Luke 22:43, Matt. 4:11
  22. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he KNEW that he was GOD?
    Matt. 4:1-11
  23. Jesus when sent to the earth was made to “be Lower” than the angels.
    Heb. 2:7. How could any part of a God Head EVER be lower than the
    angels?
  24. Then if Jesus was the sameas God, who was he being tempted to rebel
    against? Could God be tempted to rebel against himself? Matt. 4:1
  25. Near the end of his earthly life, Jesus cried out “My God, why have you forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46 Can God desert or forsake himself?
  26. Heb. 5:8 says that Jesus learned obedience! To whom would he obey if he was GOD? And Does God need to LEARN anything?
 
BibleSteve said:
Dear qui est ce,

I appreciate you contributing to this discussion. You may note there are 5, 6, 7+ people arguing the pro-Trinity side and only 1 of me. So, I’m answering their questions, comments, and arguments as fast as I can.

When someone presents an argument that supposedly “proves” Jesus is Jehovah, I’m simply pointing out why Scripture shows this is a false conclusion.

For example, when you say your argument is based on simple Logic 101, I point out you’ve miss a very basic tenent of logic:

Let’s do this again, more slowly.

You present a “given”: Only God can forgive sins.
And then use that “given” to say…
Only God forgives sins
Jesus forgives sins
Therefore, Jesus must be God.

Logic 101 will test that “given”, to see if there are any other Bible examples of someone forgiving sins who obviously isn’t God. I pointed out a scripture you can look at in your own Catholic Bible that shows the Apostles were given authority to forgive sin.

Since, they could forgive sin, the whole premise of your argument doesn’t work. The “given” that only God can forgive sins is proved to be incorrect. The scribes and Pharasees reasoned that only God could forgive sin, but in fact, the Apostles could do this. They had given authority to do so, just like Jesus had.

So, an argument based on a faulty “given”, really shouldn’t be used to prove that Jesus is God. A Bible student should look to verses that speak to the question more clearly. Like Rev 3:12, which shows Jesus speaking of him having his own God. Go to Rev 3:12 in your Catholic Bible and read what Jesus said. Multiple times he referred to “my God”, and that his God had a name.

Thank you again for you contribution to this conversation.
Click to expand...
It is wrong to say that “only God forgives sins.” We can and MUST forgive sins. But we can only forgive wrongs against us. If your friend punches you in the face, I cannot forgive your friend for punching you in the face, unless it some how hurt me to, but even then I can only forgive the wrong done to me, and not to you.

God, however, because all wrongs are ultimately commited against Him as well, does have the POWER to forgive your friend for the wrong done to you.

The apostles and priests do not have such a power either, this belongs only to God. Rather, they have the AUTHORITY to exercise the power of God, that is, to be His agents.

That being said, I agree with BibleSteve that Jesus forgiving sins does not necessarily make Him God. An argument could be made that the same authority given to priests to exercise God’s power was also given to Jesus.

*Note, this does not mean that I agree with BibleSteve that Jesus is not, in fact, God.
 
What did you think you were going to find when you decided to join a Catholic forum, a bunch of ignorant papists that don’t know their Bible?

Sorry, what you are pointing out is the YOU are coming to a false conclusion. Scriptures validates the teachings of Holy Mother Church. Especially since Holy Mother Church put Scripure together herself under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. See the writing of Irenaeous as early as the mid 2nd Century AD.
BibleSteve said:
Dear qui est ce,

I appreciate you contributing to this discussion. You may note there are 5, 6, 7+ people arguing the pro-Trinity side and only 1 of me. So, I’m answering their questions, comments, and arguments as fast as I can.

When someone presents an argument that supposedly “proves” Jesus is Jehovah, I’m simply pointing out why Scripture shows this is a false conclusion.

For example, when you say your argument is based on simple Logic 101, I point out you’ve miss a very basic tenent of logic:

Let’s do this again, more slowly.

You present a “given”: Only God can forgive sins.
And then use that “given” to say…
Only God forgives sins
Jesus forgives sins
Therefore, Jesus must be God.

Logic 101 will test that “given”, to see if there are any other Bible examples of someone forgiving sins who obviously isn’t God. I pointed out a scripture you can look at in your own Catholic Bible that shows the Apostles were given authority to forgive sin.

Since, they could forgive sin, the whole premise of your argument doesn’t work. The “given” that only God can forgive sins is proved to be incorrect. The scribes and Pharasees reasoned that only God could forgive sin, but in fact, the Apostles could do this. They had given authority to do so, just like Jesus had.

So, an argument based on a faulty “given”, really shouldn’t be used to prove that Jesus is God. A Bible student should look to verses that speak to the question more clearly. Like Rev 3:12, which shows Jesus speaking of him having his own God. Go to Rev 3:12 in your Catholic Bible and read what Jesus said. Multiple times he referred to “my God”, and that his God had a name.

Thank you again for you contribution to this conversation.
Click to expand...
 
BibleSteve said:
Hi Mike,

You had asked for comment about Eph 4:7

There are several examples of OT texts (regarding Jehovah), that are quoted by NT writers when referring to Jesus. This is because Jehovah sent Jesus as his representative to speak for him.

(Hebrews 1:1-2) God who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, 2*has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

Eph 4:7, along with John 1:23 (Isa 40:3), Heb 1:10-12 (Psa 102:25-27) are examples of this.

Why does John 1:23 quote Isaiah 40:3 and apply it to what John the Baptizer did in preparing the way for Jesus Christ, when Isaiah 40:3 is clearly discussing preparing the way before Jehovah? Because Jesus represented his Father. He came in his Father’s name and had the assurance that his Father was always with him because he did the things pleasing to his Father.—John 5:43; 8:29.

Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one through whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.—Luke 11:31.
Click to expand...
I already responded to the second half of this and you repeated it word for word. Hebrews 1:10-12 is not only applying creation to Jesus, but it is also applies God’s personal attributes to Jesus (highlighted in blue):

**And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands. 11 They themselves will perish, but you yourself are to remain continually; and just like an outer garment they will all grow old, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as an outer garment; and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will never run out.” **

And I have said time and time again that God explicitly states He alone created the world with his own hands.

Isaiah 44:24

24 This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser and the Former of you from the belly: “I, Jehovah, am doing everything, stretching out the heavens by myself, laying out the earth. Who was with me?

Isaiah 48:12-13

**12 “Listen to me, O Jacob, and you Israel my called one. I am the same One. I am the first. Moreover, I am the last. 13 Moreover, my own hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my own right hand extended out the heavens. I am calling to them, that they may keep standing together. **

God cannot be any clearer. He clearly states that He created with his own hands. In other words, no delgates or representatives that did the work for Him.

God Bless,
Michael
 
mikeledes said:
I already responded to the second half of this and you repeated it word for word.
Click to expand...
He will always do that. It’s a JW defense mechanism, or should I say, robotic mechanism? He will never try and reason with you. His only way of reasoning is telling you that you are wrong and that he is right.

BTW, if he’s here so many times during the day, be sure he is counting his hours here for his reporting card. Even my JW husband said that’s probably what he’s doing!
 
What is a reporting card?

Christine

BTW, if he’s here so many times during the day, be sure he is counting his hours here for his reporting card. Even my JW husband said that’s probably what he’s doing!
 
qui_est_ce said:
What is a reporting card?

Christine

BTW, if he’s here so many times during the day, be sure he is counting his hours here for his reporting card. Even my JW husband said that’s probably what he’s doing!
Click to expand...
I was talking about their reporting time card.

Each JW has a card they fill out and turn in every month to the elders to show how many hours they have spent preaching, how many magazines they have given out, how many studies they have, etc. Here is a picture of the card
 
And the reason for doing this is?
40.png
yessisan:
I was talking about their reporting time card.

Each JW has a card they fill out and turn in every month to the elders to show how many hours they have spent preaching, how many magazines they have given out, how many studies they have, etc. Here is a picture of the card
 
BibleSteve said:
Yes, I agree with you. There is no 100% concrete proof text that Jesus is Michael. The WT also says this. They look at various scriptures and descriptions of Michael and conclude "The scriptures point to Jesus being Michael’. Personally, I don’t argue this point because I fully realize this is a subjective, interpretive conclusion that can’t be 100% proved in Scripture. I think it an interesting idea, but since it’s not objectively proved in Scripture, I don’t argue its position.

I agree with you the Trinity idea is similar. Proponents take various descriptions of Jesus and note they are similar to Jehovah and conclude Jesus must be Jehovah. I am actually surprised at how many of the Trinity proofs fall apart so easily." They are weak and flimsy, they are based on faulty logic.

If Jesus really was a Son of God as JWs believe, it would be completely logical for him to be referring to himself having a God (Rev 3:12), sitting at Jehovah’s side (Psa 110:1-5), and being glorified by means of Jehovah (Acts 3:12). He would be calling himself “Son of God” as he always does. He would never call himself God, and he never does. If he was a Son of God, we would never find a reference to the phrase “God the Son” and we don’t.

I often read the Bible, with the idea that Jesus is God and I find I have to invent all sorts of complex explainations to hold the doctrine in place. However, if I read the Bible with the idea that Jesus really is a Son… the Son of Jehovah God of the OT, things lay out very easily. For example, each of these questions is easily answered with the understanding that Jesus is simply a Son of God, but it’s complex in trying to understand these in line with thinking that Jesus is Jehovah.
  1. Why did he say that he did not come of his “own initiative” but was sent?
    John 8:42, 1 John 4:9
  2. Why did Jesus not know the “day and the hour” of the Great Tribulation
    but God did? Matt. 24:36
  3. Who did Jesus speak to in prayer?
  4. How did he “appear before the person of God for us”? Heb. 9:24
  5. Why did Jesus say “the Father is greater than I am”? John 14:28,
    Php. 2:5, 6
  6. Who spoke to Jesus at the time of his baptism saying “this is my son”?
    Matt. 3:17
  7. How could he be exalted to a superior position? Php. 2:9, 10
  8. How can he be the “mediator between God and man”? 1Tim. 2:5
  9. Why did Paul say the “the head of Christ is God”? 1Cor. 11:30
  10. Why did Jesus “hand over the Kingdom to his God” and “subject
    himself to God”? 1Cor. 15:24, 28
  11. Who does he refer to as “my God and your God”? John 20:17
  12. How does he sit at God’s right hand? Ps. 110:1, Heb. 10:12, 13
  13. Why does John say “no man has seen God at any time”? John 1:18
  14. Why did not people die when they saw Jesus? Ex. 30:20
  15. How was Jesus dead and God alive at the same time? Acts 2:24
  16. Why did he need someone to save him? Heb. 5:7
  17. Who is reffered to prophetically at Prov. 8:22-31?
  18. Why did Jesus say “that all authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven
    and on earth”? Matt. 28:18, Dan. 7:13, 14 (similar)
  19. Why did he have godly fear? Heb. 5:7
  20. How could he learn obedience and be made perfect? Heb. 5:8-9
  21. Why would an angel be able to strengthen him or angels minister to him?
    Luke 22:43, Matt. 4:11
  22. Why would Satan try to tempt him if he KNEW that he was GOD?
    Matt. 4:1-11
  23. Jesus when sent to the earth was made to “be Lower” than the angels.
    Heb. 2:7. How could any part of a God Head EVER be lower than the
    angels?
  24. Then if Jesus was the sameas God, who was he being tempted to rebel
    against? Could God be tempted to rebel against himself? Matt. 4:1
  25. Near the end of his earthly life, Jesus cried out “My God, why have you forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46 Can God desert or forsake himself?
  26. Heb. 5:8 says that Jesus learned obedience! To whom would he obey if he was GOD? And Does God need to LEARN anything?
Click to expand...
Because Jesus is both God and Man. He has a human and a divine nature united in one person. He is not part of God. He is fully God. There are things that apply to Jesus as man and there are things that apply to Jesus as God. Your questions show that you lack an understanding of the Trinity. The easiest answer is not always the right one. You may find JW theology on God easier to understand and explain, but that does not make it right. Here are a couple of links for you. Since this is a serious matter, I hope and pray that you take the time to read both.

catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0101sbs.asp

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

God Bless,
Michael
 
qui_est_ce said:
And the reason for doing this is?
Click to expand...
It’s so they can keep a record on how many people are preaching, to see how many people they are reaching in the world, and to keep their JW members locked in the tower of the WT.

That way they don’t go mingle w/worldly people, so they don’t do things that are not WT approved, so that the members work for free, to keep them trapped w/in the tower.

Basically, it’s to control the JWs. With keeping a record, they can see who’s preaching and who’s not. If they see you’re not preaching, you’re reprimanded. If you are preaching, they tell you to do more, if you are preaching they see you are a devout JW, but they will never be happy w/how many hours you submit.
 
Considering all that preaching, they don’t seem to have a lot of success. How is it you are married to a JW, then?
yessisan said:
It’s so they can keep a record on how many people are preaching, to see how many people they are reaching in the world, and to keep their JW members locked in the tower of the WT.

That way they don’t go mingle w/worldly people, so they don’t do things that are not WT approved, so that the members work for free, to keep them trapped w/in the tower.

Basically, it’s to control the JWs. With keeping a record, they can see who’s preaching and who’s not. If they see you’re not preaching, you’re reprimanded. If you are preaching, they tell you to do more, if you are preaching they see you are a devout JW, but they will never be happy w/how many hours you submit.
Click to expand...
 
qui_est_ce said:
Considering all that preaching, they don’t seem to have a lot of success. How is it you are married to a JW, then?
Click to expand...
I didn’t know better. Plus, I din’t really care about religion when we met. I fell in love, and in the mean time my hunger for God became greater and greater.
 
Claude_Kenneson said:
In other words, if Nebuchadnezzar is the “king of kings” in Dan. 2:37 and Jehovah is the king of kings in 1 Tim. 4:16 and if Othniel is a savior in Judges 3:9 and Jehovah is a savior in Is. 43:11 and if Cyrus is a shepherd in Isaiah 44:28 and Jehovah is there anything that makes Jehovah’s titles unique?
Click to expand...
The context of the title being used is what is important. In Daniel 2:37 it literally says “a king among royality”. When used of both Jesus and God, the title is “The King of Kings”, referring to authority over all. But, only Jesus and God are called “alpha and omega” and “first and last”, ask yourself what is the meaning of “alpha and omgea”? “first and last”? No one outside of Jesus and God the Father are called by those titles.
 
BibleSteve said:
Good Question…

As noted in the various examples, many titles throughout the Bible are shared with others. Thus, title matching doesn’t work.

The only Title that Jehovah God holds that no one else does is “Almighty God”.

Steve
Click to expand...
God does not just call himself “Almighty”, he also calls himself “mighty God” just like in Isaiah. The distinction you are trying to make simply does not exist. Also, see Exodus 6:3

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, Father of Ethernity, The Prince of Peace.

The above text speaks about Jesus, the Messiah. But, this text speaks of Jehovah,

Isaiah 10:21
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

Why does Isaiah call both Jesus and Jehovah “the mighty God”?

Exodus 6:3 (King James Version)

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

If you examine the scriptures, you will find that the use of “almighty God” predates most of the prophets, except for one use in Ezekiel 10:5 which appears to be a textual variant in the hebrew manuscripts ( see Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia for proof). The name “almighty God” is restricted in the OT to the books of Moses, Job ( which was written before the books of Moses ) and one out of place reference in Ezekiel. In the NT, “almighty God” is only used in the book of Revelation. And, we believe that Rev 1:8 refers to Jesus, because it is Jesus “who came, who is and who is to come”.

Hebrews 13:8 (New International Version)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

🤷
 
Randy_Carson said:
By the way, Steve, I DO happen to own a copy of McKenzie’s **Dictionary of the Bible. **Do you?

I hope you’ll take a close look at the article that Catholic Dude referred you to…they discuss McKenzie’s presentation of the Trinity in much greater detail than the small quotation you provided.

We can spend more time on this once you’ve finished reading…
Click to expand...
Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Please show me from the gospels where Almighty God is to return to earth.

Note to self, you are at post 31.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top