Ka'aba

[inJESUS]

This hadeeth is refering to the construction of the Both temples for the first time. Islam doesnt believe that The Temples were ‘‘founded’’ by solomon or abraham. There is no mistake here .

there must be a misunderstanding then. Don’t you believe Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaaba?

 

[inJESUS]

I dont understand what is your point here , i dont see any wrong in the verses . Can you please summarise what do you think is wrong ?

Remember also Our servants **Abraham, Isaac and Jacob **-- men of might they and of vision. Assuredly We purified them with a quality most pure, the remembrance of the Abode, and in Our sight they are of the chosen, the excellent. S. 38:45-47

No one would have a problem in understanding that the above text means that Abraham fathered Isaac who begot Jacob.This is how it was ordered in the Bible so the Quranic account is correct.

Abraham begot Isaac who begot Jacob, who had twelve sons that became the nation or children of Israel.

That’s why we **don’t **find Ishmael in the same sentence in the Bible, since it’s father -son -grandson chronology. Yet in Quran, in later suras, Ishmael is added, but in the WRONG chronology that was correct in the previous verses:

And Abraham charged his sons with this and Jacob likewise: ‘My sons, God has chosen for you the religion; see that you die not save in surrender.’ Why, were you witnesses, when death came to Jacob? When he said to his sons, ‘What will you serve after me?’ They said, **'We will serve thy God and the God of thy *fathers *Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac,

The correct chronology should be WITHOUT Ishmael since he was Jacob’s borther, not father!
Since Ishmael wasn’t one of the progenitors of Jacob, the Quran is wrong since the expression “Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” refers to Israel’s ancestry. More specifically, the expression refers to biological relations shared by the three in that Abraham fathered Isaac who in turn fathered Jacob. The expression clearly refers to father, son and grandson. Reading the statements of the Quran we are left to conclude that the author thought that Abraham fathered Ishmael who in turn begot Isaac who then fathered Jacob.

Furthermore, what kind of **wrong chronology **is this:

We have revealed to thee as We revealed to Noah, and the Prophets after him, and We revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, Jesus and Job, Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and We gave to David Psalms, S. 4:163
God wouldn’t have said such a wrong sentence.

 

[inJESUS]

EARLY PERIOD OF THE QURAN: ABRAHAM’S TWO SONS WERE ISAAC AND JACOB NO ISHMAEL!!!

6: 84 We gave him Ishaq and Ya’qub: all (three) We guided: and before him, We guided Nuh, and among his progeny, Dawud, Sulaiman, Ayyub, Yusuf, Musa and Harun: thus do We reward those who do good.

11: 71 And his wife was standing (there), and she laughed: but We gave her glad tidings of Ishaq, and after him, of Ya’qub.

12: 6 “Thus will thy Lord choose thee and teach thee the interpretation of stories (and events) and perfect His favour to thee and to the posterity of Ya’qub, even as He perfected it to thy fathers **Ibrahim and Ishaq **aforetime! for thy Lord is full of knowledge and wisdom.”

12: 38 "And I follow the ways of my fathers, Ibrahim, Ishaq, and Ya’qub; and never could we attribute any partners whatever to Allah: that (comes) of the grace of Allah to us and to mankind: yet most men are not grateful

19: 49 When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Ishaq and Ya’qub, and each one of them We made a prophet.

21: 72 And We bestowed on him Ishaq and, as an additional gift, Ya’qub, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).

Meedo, why didn’t Allah mention Ishmael? in these ayas, the chronology is correct- it is the same as the Bible. But why didn’t Allah mention Ishmael?? i know you believe in progressive revelations, but is it really the case here?

However, Muhammed’s scribes added Ishmael’s name to Abraham’s progeny first in a late Mecca period - by omitting Jacob - , but they were not courageous enough to ascribe Kaa’ba’s construction to Abraham yet!

14: 39 "Praise be to Allah. Who hath granted unto me in old age Isma’il and Ishaq: for truly my Lord is He, the Hearer of Prayer!

**MEDINA PERIOD: ABRAHAM’S SONS ARE ISHMAEL AND ISAAC. (ISHMAEL IS ISAAC’S FATHER!) **

2: 133 Were ye witnesses when Death appeared before Ya’qub? Behold he said to his sons: “What will ye worship after me?” They said: “We shall worship thy God and the God of thy fathers, - of Ibrahim, Isma’il and Ishaq, - the One (True) God: to Him we bow (in Islam).”

**2: 140 **Or do ye say that Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaq, Ya’qub, and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? But Allah is not unmindful of what ye do!

3: 84 Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaq, Ya’qub, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Musa, 'Isa, and the Prophets, from their Lord: we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam).”

4: 163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Nuh and the Messengers after him: We sent inspiration to Ibrahim, Isma’il, Ishaq, Ya’qub, and the Tribes, to 'Isa, Ayyub, Yunus, Harun, and Sulaiman, and to Dawud We gave the Psalms.

.

why there is no mention of Ishmael in the early period of Quran and the chronology is correct, yet Ishmael was added later, rendering all the chronology wrong?

 

[inJESUS]

Correction of post 42!

The correct chronology should be WITHOUT Ishmael since he was Issac’s brother, not father. That is, following the correct chronololy of early Quranic period.

 

[inJESUS]

I’d suggest we leave politics aside…all countries are guilty…even Arab muslim countries do not agree so i don’t see a positive thing out of such discussions. One can talk about the wars waged by Muhammad and later his wife and followers, compared to Jesus and His disciples…now that’s a comparison of back and white. But i’d suggest, again, that we keep the thread on track

 

[inJESUS]

This hadeeth is refering to the construction of the Both temples for the first time. Islam doesnt believe that The Temples were ‘‘founded’’ by solomon or abraham. There is no mistake here .

i remembered something. Was it Adam who founded it?was it Adam as per some tradition or Abraham and Ishmael as per Quran? the hadith is confusing because it shows that it could have been neither . Looking for a clarification please

 

[inJESUS]

correct, but that’s the **Biblical **account.

Genesis 18:10
“I will surely return to you about this time next year, and **Sarah will then have a son.” **Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him.
Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years, and Sarah had stopped having her womanly periods. So Sarah laughed to herself and said, “Now that I am so withered and my husband is so old, am I still to have sexual pleasure?”

Here is the Quranic account:

11:70 But when he saw their hands not reaching for it, he distrusted them and felt from them apprehension. They said, “Fear not. We have been sent to the people of Lot.”

1. And his Wife was standing, and **she smiled. Then **We gave her good tidings of Isaac and after Isaac, Jacob.

In the Quran, Sarah laughed **BEFORE **knowing that she’ll be pragnant. See the problem?

here’s the second account in Quran:

51: 28. Then he conceived a fear of them. They said: Fear not! and gave him tidings of (the birth of) a wise son.

1. Then his wife came forward, making moan, and smote her face, and cried: A barren old woman!

First, Why did Allah repeat the same account ? i can digest the idea that it took Allah 4 ayas to abolish alcohol throu “progressive revelation” because people were used to drinking; but what about historical accounts? did Allah need to reveal many ayas, each time changing or adding details? and why the differences in both chapters:

1-One chapter with laughter vs another chapter with no laughter

2- wrong order of Sarah’s reaction : in chapter 11 the good news were given AFTER she laughted but truth is she laughed BEFORE.

3- giving the glad tidings of two people in the chapter 11 (Isaac and Jacob) but only one person (Isaac) in chapter 51

 

[meedo]

i remembered something. Was it Adam who founded it?was it Adam as per some tradition or Abraham and Ishmael as per Quran? the hadith is confusing because it shows that it could have been neither . Looking for a clarification please

Muslim scholars agree as per tradition from the Prophet the Both Temples originated Before Abraham. Abraham and ishmael rebuilt the Kaba and David started buidling the one in Jerusalem.

The difference of 40 years is the difference of tiume of their first buildiung not the one happened in Abraham or David and solomon.

 

[Angelos]

Muslim scholars agree as per tradition from the Prophet the Both Temples originated Before Abraham. Abraham and ishmael rebuilt the Kaba and David started buidling the one in Jerusalem.

The difference of 40 years is the difference of tiume of their first buildiung not the one happened in Abraham or David and solomon.

Let me get this clear please: Muslims agree that both temples existed before Abraham, but either Allah or the scribes of the Quran did not know anything about it?

My questions:

1- Who was the first man to build Kaa’ba and when was it founded? Islamic tradition claims that Adam was the first prophet to build Kaa’ba. This means the first temple in Palestine was built 40 years after Adam finished constructing Beitullah? There was neither Abraham nor the tribe of Israelites at that time! So which nation or the folk of which prophet built it?
2- Why was the temple constructed in Palestine 40 years after Adam had built Kaa’ba?, rather than in one of the other places where Allah’s supposed messengers had been sent?
3- What caused first Kaa’ba’s destruction?Why, when, how, by whom was the first Kaa’ba razed? (if Abraham & Ishmael supposedly rebuilt it?)
4-Why can we find no answer to any of the questions above in the Quran?

Thanks for the answers from now.

Peace & blessings to you,
Angelos N.

 

[inJESUS]

Interesting questions Angelos. Maybe after that we’ll get a response about Sarah’s laughter.

 

[inJESUS]

No responses.

 

[Angelos]

No responses.

Waiting for the progressive revelations I guess!

 

[inJESUS]

Waiting for the progressive revelations I guess!

LOL yea one that abrogates the passage about Sarah laughing before the good new with a new aya about her laughing after the good news that would fall under the category of an aya “better” than the previous one