Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution

[5Loaves]

By the way, you may also want to read Jeffrey Tucker’s review of the book from NLM: “I really can’t,” he says, “recommend this book highly enough. It is the essential tableau for understanding where we’ve been and where we are going.”

Thanks for the link to that review. He certainly praises the book!

For years I’ve search for the missing link to explain what became of Catholic liturgy by the time I came to know it. …the immense chasm that separates what was from what is today…with Ken Canedo’s wonderful book, Keep The Fire Burning (Oregon: Pastoral Press, 2009), I feel as if I’ve found the missing link. This is the only book I know of that looks in depth at the Catholic music of the 1960s to provide an excellent empirical account of the rise of the folk music movement in the Church, a movement that was about much more than music actually.

In here we find a fascinating if deeply harrowing look at the dismantling of Catholic liturgy that occurred not so much at the hands of the hierarchy but rather at the instigation of a handful of activists and publishers that shoved contemporary styles down everyone’s throat in the name of keeping up with the times, as a cowed and fearful clerical class did its best to imagine that they were onto something…

The review I read is this one by Susan Bailey ,the music editor of Catholic.net.

I hope to get back to the podcasts later today. What they did that was very important was they reminded me of what life was like in those “times”-- as has the recent Mad Men TV series. Burrr!

To be slightly more generous than Tucker, I think that anyone who didn’t live through those times can’t imagine what the music in the culture of those times meant. (I’m not referring to the music in the Church, I wasn’t in the Church, can’t speak to that.) Clearly some of the posters here did live through those times, as did I, though I didn’t live them as a Catholic. From the podcasts, all I have to go by besides these reviews by other baby boomers, Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution strives to make sense of the evolution of the “Folk Mass” of that particular era within the context of the culture we were living within, and, I gather, how that connects to what has ultimately played out. Only with an ear from that era can I myself appreciate as* even remotely liturgical* much of what I’m hearing of the music in these podcasts. I appreciate how Canedo is helping me do that time travel and make those connections. It’s really made me want to talk with my priest about his experiences of the times. He’s a boomer like me and went into the minor seminary as a “kid”.

From the chill of the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) investigations, the McCarthy Hearings, and their aftermath, the Cold War (duck under your school desk, cover your head, the nuclear bombs are coming, ( Khrushchev: “We will bury you!”), when it was legal to refuse to sell property to people of color, not just in the deep south but in San Francisco and across the US, where African Americas in many areas could not vote in our nations’ elections, could not marry someone of a different race, where lynchings were common… to the Civil Right movement whose greatest strength when confronted with police dogs and assaults with fire hoses were the great spirituals, without a sense of the times and the power that the music had for us, first of the Civil Rights movement and then of “folk music” as it came into the Civil Rights movement and later into the general cultural upheaval brought on by the war in Viet Nam I don’t think one can really get where the music for the “Folk Mass” came from. Not that this excuses the way things progressed within the music movement in the Church.

The podcasts have already given me a very good reminder of “the times” while exposing me to what was happening in the Church at that time, which I was not exposed to since I wasn’t Catholic in the 1960s. I’ve ordered the book and look forward to sharing it with some other people I who I think will find this history very useful, as Tucker says “to explain what became of Catholic liturgy by the time I came to know it. …the immense chasm that separates what was from what is today”.

Susan Bailey in her review says" the book ends just before getting into the era of the St. Louis Jesuits", so that later history isn’t covered in this book.

 

[malphono]

I found it a strange point. If these aren’t folk pieces (I’m talking about the stuff that arose authentically in the 60s and 70s, not the manufactured stuff of the 80s and 90s) then neither are the songs of Bob Dylan and Joan Baez. It’s what people called folk music. Maybe you can call it folk rock if you like, but people called it folk music then, and people call it folk music now.

Of all the valid criticisms there are to be made about folk music, “It’s not folk music” is the last one I would hang my hat on.

Whether it’s authentically “folk music” (whatever “American folk music” is: some sort of variation on country & western, perhaps?) or not, is rather beside the point. Joan Baez and her ilk are aliturgical.

 

[MarkThompson]

Whether it’s authentically “folk music” (whatever “American folk music” is: some sort of variation on country & western, perhaps?) or not, is rather beside the point. Joan Baez and her ilk are aliturgical.

If it’s “beside the point,” then why did anyone go to the trouble of posting, “I think that Dr. Esolen makes an excellent point–whatever this is, it’s not ‘folk’ music”? That’s all I was responding to. Peter Scholtes and Ray Repp were creating music that was as much “folk” as Dylan or Baez, is my point. Esolen’s real argument is that he doesn’t like the music and it’s not appropriate for the liturgy, which I pretty much agree with, but he loses ground when he tries to gild the lily by piling on, “And it’s not even actually folk music! Nyah! You posers!”

If you haven’t listened to the podcasts (linked in the OP), I think you’d really find them interesting, especially the first few chapters which deal with the era before and during the Council, prior to the full implementation of the new missal.

 

[malphono]

If it’s “beside the point,” then why did anyone go to the trouble of posting, “I think that Dr. Esolen makes an excellent point–whatever this is, it’s not ‘folk’ music”? That’s all I was responding to. Peter Scholtes and Ray Repp were creating music that was as much “folk” as Dylan or Baez, is my point. Esolen’s real argument is that he doesn’t like the music and it’s not appropriate for the liturgy, which I pretty much agree with, but he loses ground when he tries to gild the lily by piling on, “And it’s not even actually folk music! Nyah! You posers!”

If you haven’t listened to the podcasts (linked in the OP), I think you’d really find them interesting, especially the first few chapters which deal with the era before and during the Council, prior to the full implementation of the new missal.

Whoever Peter Scholtes and Ray Repp are or were. I remember the vile songs (not hymns) but not their authors/composers. But the argument that it’s “not even “folk” music” still seems valid. Unless, of course, one considers so-called “American folk music” is some variant of country & western (which is anything but “folk” to me).

Anyway, I’m not in this argument: I made a comment, and that’s the extent of it.

 

[MarkThompson]

Whoever Peter Scholtes and Ray Repp are or were. I remember the vile songs (not hymns) but not their authors/composers. But the argument that it’s “not even “folk” music” still seems valid. Unless, of course, one considers so-called “American folk music” is some variant of country & western (which is anything but “folk” to me).

It’s kind of sad that you would make these remarks without taking any effort to be familiar with the people or their music. I know it’s easier to take potshots at things you don’t understand that to find out about them and then engage in reasoned criticism, but I guess the latter requires a little effort. Just so you know, that’s the same laziness that causes people to sit back and take potshots at, say, the TLM, and then admit, “Well, granted, I’ve never been to one, but I’m perfectly familiar with the unfriendliness of the priest turning his back to shun the people …”, blah blah blah.

Anyway, I’m not in this argument: I made a comment, and that’s the extent of it.

“I’m not in this discussion, I’m just saying you’re wrong.” Okay, then.

 

[malphono]

It’s kind of sad that you would make these remarks without taking any effort to be familiar with the people or their music. I know it’s easier to take potshots at things you don’t understand that to find out about them and then engage in reasoned criticism, but I guess the latter requires a little effort. Just so you know, that’s the same laziness that causes people to sit back and take potshots at, say, the TLM, and then admit, “Well, granted, I’ve never been to one, but I’m perfectly familiar with the unfriendliness of the priest turning his back to shun the people …”, blah blah blah.

Whoa, bub. Who are you to tell me I’m lazy? I lived thorough that stuff. I didn’t like it 40+ years ago. It’s my opinion to which, I believe I am entitled. The “blah blah blah” goes both ways.

“I’m not in this discussion, I’m just saying you’re wrong.” Okay, then.

I made a comment. Period. Whether you like it or agree with it is not material. No need for the barb. But I suppose I should have known better than to proffer a comment in the first place.

Over and out.

 

[MarkThompson]

Whoa, bub. Who are you to tell me I’m lazy?

I’m the guy to whom you said, I don’t know who any of those people are or nothin’, but their music is vile. You obviously haven’t read the book or even bothered to listen to the podcasts, so why are you pontificating?

I lived thorough that stuff. I didn’t like it 40+ years ago. It’s my opinion to which, I believe I am entitled. The “blah blah blah” goes both ways.

I’d be curious to hear your reasoned criticism of what makes, say, They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love or God is Love or Shout From the Highest Mountain “vile songs.” Have you ever even heard them? What exactly is loathsome or repulsive about them?

I made a comment. Period. Whether you like it or agree with it is not material. No need for the barb. But I suppose I should have known better than to proffer a comment in the first place.

This is the queerest conversational tactic I’ve ever seen: “You can’t reply to me!!! I’m not in this conversation!!!”

 

[revert_jen]

If it’s “beside the point,” then why did anyone go to the trouble of posting, “I think that Dr. Esolen makes an excellent point–whatever this is, it’s not ‘folk’ music”? That’s all I was responding to. Peter Scholtes and Ray Repp were creating music that was as much “folk” as Dylan or Baez, is my point. Esolen’s real argument is that he doesn’t like the music and it’s not appropriate for the liturgy, which I pretty much agree with, but he loses ground when he tries to gild the lily by piling on, “And it’s not even actually folk music! Nyah! You posers!”

Since the author specifically excluded songs like “They’ll Know We Are Christians” (by Peter Scholtes) when he was referring to the songs that were not folk music, I think he was referring primarily to the songs of the 80s and 90s. The author did mention a specific hymnal, which does not appear to contain any songs by Ray Repp and only that one by Peter Scholtes. So, I’m not 100% sure that your criticism of the article is valid.

His point about it not being folk music relates to the justification of the music. People say we should have “folk” Masses because folk music is “music of the common people” or something. The Dan Schutte/David Haas/Marty Haugen stuff isn’t “the people’s music” in that way. Nonetheless, it is pitted against good liturgical music in many people’s minds as a sort of David and Goliath situation, with the people’s folk music (by Schutte et al) as David and any kind of decent liturgical music (from four-square hymns to chant) as being a Goliath only fit for elitist and snobby people.

–Jen

 

[MarkThompson]

Since the author specifically excluded songs like “They’ll Know We Are Christians” (by Peter Scholtes) when he was referring to the songs that were not folk music, I think he was referring primarily to the songs of the 80s and 90s. The author did mention a specific hymnal, which does not appear to contain any songs by Ray Repp and only that one by Peter Scholtes. So, I’m not 100% sure that your criticism of the article is valid.

That’s a fair point, and I can’t say I’m familiar with the contents of that hymnal, although I don’t think that the '80s and '90s stuff really gets called “folk music” either, so his criticism may miss the point a little in that respect too. I totally agree that, e.g., On Eagle’s Wings doesn’t particularly qualify as folk music – but then music of that type isn’t covered in Keep the Fire Burning in the first place.

His point about it not being folk music relates to the justification of the music. People say we should have “folk” Masses because folk music is “music of the common people” or something. The Dan Schutte/David Haas/Marty Haugen stuff isn’t “the people’s music” in that way. Nonetheless, it is pitted against good liturgical music in many people’s minds as a sort of David and Goliath situation, with the people’s folk music (by Schutte et al) as David and any kind of decent liturgical music (from four-square hymns to chant) as being a Goliath only fit for elitist and snobby people.

–Jen

This is all true. The stuff that came up in the '60s and '70s really was people’s music, and I think it tends to be forgotten (or never known in the first place, like it was for me) how it came about, what shaped it, and what those times were like. It’s not as though OCP had missalettes in those days that one day were full of chant, and the next day were switched out maliciously for folk pieces and thrust on an unwilling public to everyone’s consternation and disapproval.

Anyway, I really recommend at least the podcasts. Some of the music I hate, some of it is great, almost all of it I think is unsuitable for good liturgy in the average parish, but it’s all fascinating. I would have thought that the people who love most to complain about the “fruits” of those days would be the most interested to learn about the people involved, the social factors, and the rest of it.

 

[boatbearer]

Has anyone here read the fairly recently published Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution? Someone on MusicaSacra Forum suggested reading it.

I’m going Saturday to Prepare the Way: Workshop with Dan Schutte as part of my effort to see what’s ahead with the new Mass translation. I’m extremely happy as a Byzantine Catholic with the Divine Liturgy that never faces changes. However, I’m also active in RCIA and Mass at a Latin parish. Especially as concerns my work with RCIA I try to be as familiar as possible with the Roman Rite in its variations, including occasional participation in the Extraordinary Form, and more frequent participation in a monastic priory’s Mass.

From the description of the book and after listening to a couple of the related podcasts I’m thinking this book will be helpful for me in gaining a better appreciation of the context of the reforms as they occurred in the US, a time period in the US I remember very well. I came into the Catholic Church post Second Vatican Council, although I often went to pre-conciliar Mass as a child with my best friend so I do remember the Mass in Latin as it was celebrated in that particular parish in the 1950s and '60s, coincidentally the same parish I’m involved with now.

Those wishing to grouse about any form of the Mass need not apply. I’m interested in who has read the book and whether it was helpful.

If you have attended the Ruthenian Church for any length of time you noticed HUGE changes when the turquoise book was released. Nice try.

 

[zab]

firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/06/are-these-the-ten-worst-hymns-of-all-time/#more-18062
Kumbaya did not make this top ten list of worst hymns of all time.

 

[corsair]

I keep praying that the “Fires of the Revolution” will run out of fuel soon. Things are not as bad as the were but I pray that the insanity will end soon. Schutte is one of the worst writers of music on the planet.

 

[budgie2]

Has anyone here read the fairly recently published Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution? Someone on MusicaSacra Forum suggested reading it.

I’m going Saturday to Prepare the Way: Workshop with Dan Schutte as part of my effort to see what’s ahead with the new Mass translation. I’m extremely happy as a Byzantine Catholic with the Divine Liturgy that never faces changes. However, I’m also active in RCIA and Mass at a Latin parish. Especially as concerns my work with RCIA I try to be as familiar as possible with the Roman Rite in its variations, including occasional participation in the Extraordinary Form, and more frequent participation in a monastic priory’s Mass.

From the description of the book and after listening to a couple of the related podcasts I’m thinking this book will be helpful for me in gaining a better appreciation of the context of the reforms as they occurred in the US, a time period in the US I remember very well. I came into the Catholic Church post Second Vatican Council, although I often went to pre-conciliar Mass as a child with my best friend so I do remember the Mass in Latin as it was celebrated in that particular parish in the 1950s and '60s, coincidentally the same parish I’m involved with now.

Those wishing to grouse about any form of the Mass need not apply. I’m interested in who has read the book and whether it was helpful.

I haven’t read the book. I do like folk music and think it’s close to Jesus’ heart. Folk is the voice of the poor and of manual workers like minors and sailors. I think this song “Harvest Gypsies” from Chris Drever has a lot of Christian resonance and Christ as a shepherd was a bit like a gypsy. However, some folk songs have pagan significance like “Are you going to Scarborough Fair”.

youtube.com/watch?v=XJ0u6y78ZD8&feature=PlayList&p=EFE86D12059BB7D4&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=30

 

[ljubim]

I haven’t read the book. I do like folk music and think it’s close to Jesus’ heart. Folk is the voice of the poor and of manual workers like minors and sailors.

I really, REALLY disagree. The music close to Our Lord’s heart is what teaches you as well as has a lovely tune. I’m thinking of the old traditional hymns that have the entire church, even those who barely mutter responses, singing loud and proud at the top of their lungs to the Lord, like you’d see people belting out their national anthem, or like you’d hear on old recordings of Mass where the recording will buzz and get fuzzy just from the sheer numbers of their voices and the love conveyed. I’m thinking “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence,” I’m thinking “O Filii et Filiae/Ye Sons and Daughters,” I’m thinking “Praise to the Lord, the Almighty,” I’m thinking “Holy God we praise Thy name.” You know, the songs you find yourself humming all Sunday long after Mass. Songs whose lyrics could easily be prayed without any tune.

When I say music that teaches us, I mean that after singing Let all Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, you can picture the reverence and awe with which God should be treated(Ponder not things earthly minded… At His feet the six-winged seraph, cherubim with sleepless eye, veil their faces to the Presence), and picture the Second Coming(as the Light of Light descendeth from the realms of endless day, that the powers of hell may vanish, as the darkness clears away), and develop a greater love of God through such music. Or when a certain line just jumps out at you, like in O Filii et Filiae: “Thou art my Lord and God,” he cried. (speaking of Thomas finally believing…) Or in Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, every line starts praising God. And Holy God we praise Thy name, well that’s absolutely a lesson on Who God is. These were just a few examples.

Now counter-examples. Compare, please

Dance then, wherever you may be, I am the Lord of the Dance, said He! I’ll lead you all, wherever you may be, I’ll lead you all in the Dance, said He!

Let the river flow, Let the river flow, Holy Spirit come, Move in power, Let the river flow

I will hold the Christ-light for you, In the night time of your fear

Not in the dark of buildings confining, Not in some heaven, light-years away.

I’ve got to add that I’m one of your “minor manual workers.” I’m 18 and have a job that sometimes makes my back and shoulders stiff, and I’m still not quite used to standing for 8 hours at a time, sneaking the occasional leaning in there . Let me tell you that nothing gets me through a rough time at work better than humming one of the hymns (not the “folk” songs) above, or Tantum Ergo, or Schubert’s Ave Maria, etc. If I wanted to hum about myself (as so many of these hippy songs do, either not mentioning God at all, or making us sing “I” like we’re God.), then I wouldn’t feel any better because I’m already here with myself, sacred hymns remind me of all the other things out there besides me, and it’s a very nice way to get through the day.

And I’ll give it to you that many of these folk songs can be catchy and give some kind of spiritual euphoria or whatever you’d like to call it. But it would be hard finding a serious Catholic who can reap any spiritual or theological benefit whatsoever out of these songs. You don’t learn more about God or His Church. You spend more time figuring out the weird tune and jumping octaves (Eagle’s Wings? I am the Bread of Life? or any of the stuff Lifeteen uses, you get all these weird time signatures and key changes, it’s like reading Chinese to anybody but the utmost music expert.) than you do pondering sacred mysteries (if their existence is even acknowledged.)

Within my family it’s a bit of a joke that my mom cannot sing very high pitched. So when the tune gets too high that it’s just unsingable(almost always at the Novus Ordos), she continues, but jumps down an octave without skipping a beat. So in the middle of a song, it’s climbing, it’s climbing, and then she drops really low It’s the rare occasion we’ll all giggle at Mass

 

[seekerz]

I confess, I played and sang for these in the late 60’s/early 70’s, too. Then I went to college and was exposed to chant and other good music, and there was no turning back.

OK, trivia question for all you oldsters: What song has the words, “Keep the fire burning,” and what is the next line?

Betsy

I believe that would be: “kindle it with love” (or was that "with care’?)

 

[Melchior_1]

I really, REALLY disagree. The music close to Our Lord’s heart is what teaches you as well as has a lovely tune.

It’s cool that you can speak for Jesus like this with such authority and know exactly His exact thoughts on music. Unless of course, this is just your opinion.

(Yeah, it’s your opinion. Which you’re entitled to of course, but it’s still an opinion).

But it would be hard finding a serious Catholic who can reap any spiritual or theological benefit whatsoever out of these songs.

You just found one. Who knew it was that easy?

You don’t learn more about God or His Church. You spend more time figuring out the weird tune and jumping octaves (Eagle’s Wings? I am the Bread of Life? or any of the stuff Lifeteen uses, you get all these weird time signatures and key changes, it’s like reading Chinese to anybody but the utmost music expert.) than you do pondering sacred mysteries (if their existence is even acknowledged.)

The folks at my parish (young and old, musical and non-musical) don’t have a problem singing the songs we sing. And as a drummer I can tell you that we use 4/4 and 3/4 time, with no signature changes during a song. And personally, I think you’re vastly over exaggerating the difficulties.

I fail to see how either 3/4 or 4/4 time is confusing for anyone. 1 - 2 -3 - 4. Or 1 - 2 - 3.

I’m not a music expert at all (some would make the joke I’m not even a musician, I’m a percussionist). Yet I, who cannot sing, do not have a problem with singing modern or classical songs.

EDIT: And what does this have to do with the OP? The fellow wanted to know if people read the book and wanted opinions about the book. Instead we have people jumping in saying “this music is bads” without even mentioning the book. And now my post follows the same vein.

Mark has a musical preference, but at least he’s commenting on the podcasts and the book, which is what the OP wanted.

 

[MarkThompson]

If I wanted to hum about myself (as so many of these hippy songs do, either not mentioning God at all, or making us sing “I” like we’re God.),

Golly, I hope you’re not humming very many Gregorian propers then. “I am the true vine,” “I am the good shepherd” . . . who knew David Haas wrote so much of the ancient chants! And that Palestrina was a member of the St. Louis Jesuits! I mean, “I am the bread of life”?! Talk about an inverted theology.

And I’ll give it to you that many of these folk songs can be catchy and give some kind of spiritual euphoria or whatever you’d like to call it. But it would be hard finding a serious Catholic who can reap any spiritual or theological benefit whatsoever out of these songs. You don’t learn more about God or His Church. You spend more time figuring out the weird tune and jumping octaves (Eagle’s Wings? I am the Bread of Life? or any of the stuff Lifeteen uses, you get all these weird time signatures and key changes, it’s like reading Chinese to anybody but the utmost music expert.) than you do pondering sacred mysteries (if their existence is even acknowledged.)

Octave jumps! Goodness gracious, how unsingable! Well, if there’s anything we can be confident of, it’s that the musical geniuses of the historical faith would never have allowed anything like that to creep into a piece. No siree, not on your life! Not like the hacks writing today!

Isn’t ir just so darned frustrating when you think of all the horrible “fruits” of Vatican II, and how before the Council none of the grave issues that you’ve identified as severe problems existed? Alas, ye wretched modern age! O tempora! And don’t even get me started on the mores!
.

 

[seekerz]

I really, REALLY disagree. The music close to Our Lord’s heart is what teaches you as well as has a lovely tune. I’m thinking of the old traditional hymns that have the entire church, even those who barely mutter responses, singing loud and proud at the top of their lungs to the Lord, like you’d see people belting out their national anthem, or like you’d hear on old recordings of Mass where the recording will buzz and get fuzzy just from the sheer numbers of their voices and the love conveyed. I’m thinking “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence,” I’m thinking “O Filii et Filiae/Ye Sons and Daughters,” I’m thinking “Praise to the Lord, the Almighty,” I’m thinking “Holy God we praise Thy name.” You know, the songs you find yourself humming all Sunday long after Mass. Songs whose lyrics could easily be prayed without any tune.

When I say music that teaches us, I mean that after singing Let all Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, you can picture the reverence and awe with which God should be treated(Ponder not things earthly minded… At His feet the six-winged seraph, cherubim with sleepless eye, veil their faces to the Presence), and picture the Second Coming(as the Light of Light descendeth from the realms of endless day, that the powers of hell may vanish, as the darkness clears away), and develop a greater love of God through such music. Or when a certain line just jumps out at you, like in O Filii et Filiae: “Thou art my Lord and God,” he cried. (speaking of Thomas finally believing…) Or in Praise to the Lord, the Almighty, every line starts praising God. And Holy God we praise Thy name, well that’s absolutely a lesson on Who God is. These were just a few examples.

Now counter-examples. Compare, please

I’ve got to add that I’m one of your “minor manual workers.” I’m 18 and have a job that sometimes makes my back and shoulders stiff, and I’m still not quite used to standing for 8 hours at a time, sneaking the occasional leaning in there . Let me tell you that nothing gets me through a rough time at work better than humming one of the hymns (not the “folk” songs) above, or Tantum Ergo, or Schubert’s Ave Maria, etc. If I wanted to hum about myself (as so many of these hippy songs do, either not mentioning God at all, or making us sing “I” like we’re God.), then I wouldn’t feel any better because I’m already here with myself, sacred hymns remind me of all the other things out there besides me, and it’s a very nice way to get through the day.

And I’ll give it to you that many of these folk songs can be catchy and give some kind of spiritual euphoria or whatever you’d like to call it. But it would be hard finding a serious Catholic who can reap any spiritual or theological benefit whatsoever out of these songs. You don’t learn more about God or His Church. You spend more time figuring out the weird tune and jumping octaves (Eagle’s Wings? I am the Bread of Life? or any of the stuff Lifeteen uses, you get all these weird time signatures and key changes, it’s like reading Chinese to anybody but the utmost music expert.) than you do pondering sacred mysteries (if their existence is even acknowledged.)

Within my family it’s a bit of a joke that my mom cannot sing very high pitched. So when the tune gets too high that it’s just unsingable(almost always at the Novus Ordos), she continues, but jumps down an octave without skipping a beat. So in the middle of a song, it’s climbing, it’s climbing, and then she drops really low It’s the rare occasion we’ll all giggle at Mass

I have to come to the defense of “I am the Bread of Life”, which, if it’s the same song I remember, is almost verbatim scripture.

My experience has been that much of this music (maybe even more than sermons, which often seem to elude young concentration spans) speaks to the teenaged/young heart and reaches them in a way much more comparable to the pull of pop culture music than do the traditional hymns. Some of it has to do with language and expression, so to do with the actual music.

Once one matures in faith, the traditional hymns gain (or regain) their deep meaning and importance, but it’s important to realize that especially for the young they may simply not have the same appeal (and appeal is important in attracting and keeping the young).

The strains of To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King ; Holy God we praise Thy Name or Hail Redeemer King, Divine (my personal favorite hymn) in my estimation have no comparison but I do believe I’ve memorized more scripture from ‘guitar mass’ songs, probably because they were easier to remember. I have also seen old favorites like Soul of Christ, rejuvenated by just being played on, let’s just say…‘more contemporary’ instruments.

As far as mass music goes, it’s all in the heart I believe - just like prayer - not simply in the words/tempo. What I will freely admit to disliking with a passion, is having tunes of songs/hymns I love changed :crying: to something more contemporary. Don’t mess with a Catholic’s childhood memories I say…

 

[ljubim]

I have to come to the defense of “I am the Bread of Life”, which, if it’s the same song I remember, is almost verbatim scripture.

My experience has been that much of this music (maybe even more than sermons, which often seem to elude young concentration spans) speaks to the teenaged/young heart and reaches them in a way much more comparable to the pull of pop culture music than do the traditional hymns. Some of it has to do with language and expression, so to do with the actual music.

Once one matures in faith, the traditional hymns gain (or regain) their deep meaning and importance, but it’s important to realize that especially for the young they may simply not have the same appeal (and appeal is important in attracting and keeping the young).

The strains of Christ Jesus Victor, Christ Jesus Ruler; Holy God we praise Thy Name or Hail Redeemer King, Divine (my personal favorite hymn) in my estimation have no comparison but I do believe I memorized more scripture from ‘guitar mass’ songs, probably because they were easier to remember. I have also seen old favorites like Soul of Christ, rejuvenated by just being played on, let’s just say…‘more contemporary’ instruments.

As far as mass music goes, it’s all in the heart I believe - just like prayer - not simply in the words/tempo. What I will freely admit to disliking with a passion, is having tunes of songs/hymns I love changed :crying: to something more contemporary. Don’t mess with a Catholic’s childhood memories I say…

I can see where it might appeal to young people. I’m 18, and thankfully done with the oddities of the high school diocese events… it’s kind of over-emotionalism, like reading a poem that makes you feel fuzzy inside. The problem is a lot of the stuff isn’t directed at God, yet still tries to stir the emotions through, idk, clever rhyming?

I think Steubenville is very big on playing traditional hymns and Latin with modern instruments, right?

Melchior, I’ve seen a bunch of songs that change from 4/4 to 5/8 to everywhere in between, (used to sing in a youth choir with… gasp guitars and no organ or anything.) For one particular song, the very experienced director had to take a break from practice to figure out all the syncopation and time changes… I really wish I remembered which one it was I think Matt Maher.

And apologies for derailing the thread but this is an internet forum, discussion and all that…

 

[Melchior_1]

Melchior, I’ve seen a bunch of songs that change from 4/4 to 5/8 to everywhere in between, (used to sing in a youth choir with… gasp guitars and no organ or anything.) For one particular song, the very experienced director had to take a break from practice to figure out all the syncopation and time changes… I really wish I remembered which one it was I think Matt Maher.

And apologies for derailing the thread but this is an internet forum, discussion and all that…

I’d love it if you listed some of these songs. I’ve been playing drums for seven years now (both auxiliary percussion and drum kits) at Mass and I’ve RARELY come across songs that do what you’re talking about. List them, if you can, and I’ll tell you their level of difficulty from a percussionist stand point.

“Love Has Come” is the only Matt Maher song I can think of which is how you described, the rest of his songs are all very reasonable with no time changes or syncopation. And in the case of “Love Has Come”, it wasn’t very difficult for us (plus those attending Mass had no issues singing it either). Keep in mind I’m the percussionist so I obviously need to pay attention to such things or else it will sound TERRIBLE. I find very few (if any) of the modern songs/hymns we do challenging from a instrument or vocal level (my vocal range is quite low and I lack vocal agility, so if I find it not difficult then the average person in the pews wouldn’t either).