Keep the Fire Burning: The Folk Mass Revolution

[MarkThompson]

Melchior, I’ve seen a bunch of songs that change from 4/4 to 5/8 to everywhere in between, (used to sing in a youth choir with… gasp guitars and no organ or anything.) For one particular song, the very experienced director had to take a break from practice to figure out all the syncopation and time changes… I really wish I remembered which one it was I think Matt Maher.

Wait . . . your complaint is that modern music is too difficult for choirs? Then either pick easier music, or get better at singing. Otherwise, that’s like complaining that the high C in Allegri’s Miserere is “too high” for people to sing, or that six- or eight-part Venetian-school choral pieces are “too complicated.”

 

[jilly4ski]

Wait . . . your complaint is that modern music is too difficult for choirs? Then either pick easier music, or get better at singing. Otherwise, that’s like complaining that the high C in Allegri’s Miserere is “too high” for people to sing, or that six- or eight-part Venetian-school choral pieces are “too complicated.”

I don’t know ljubim has a point. I have noticed the increasing popularity of the hymn/song The Call the refrain goes “we are called to act with justice, we are called to loved tenderly, we are called to serve one another and walk humbly with God.” Anyways for a congregation an octave jump to a high E is not a very singable song. I sang intensively in college and it can be difficult for me if I am not warmed up (though granted I was an alto and that note can be my “break”). I can’t imagine how untrained singers who are not warmed up sing this particular song. I have no particular problem with high songs in general, but making the second note of a song that high just seems like bad composing for a congregational song.

There are other songs in the OPC hymnal that are equally difficult to sing or illogical in their melodic progression, (I find this the worst as it makes songs difficult to sight read, for someone who didn’t grow up with hymns but rather “folk” and “pop” church songs).

 

[benedictgal]

I haven’t read the book. I do like folk music and think it’s close to Jesus’ heart. Folk is the voice of the poor and of manual workers like minors and sailors. I think this song “Harvest Gypsies” from Chris Drever has a lot of Christian resonance and Christ as a shepherd was a bit like a gypsy. However, some folk songs have pagan significance like “Are you going to Scarborough Fair”.

youtube.com/watch?v=XJ0u6y78ZD8&feature=PlayList&p=EFE86D12059BB7D4&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=30

With all due respect, that is not necessarily true. “Folk” music wasn’t exactly used during the cultic worship of ancient Israel; chant was. The psalms were chanted.

We need to look at what is genuinely sacred and fit for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Such cannot be said about “folk music.”

 

[benedictgal]

Thanks for the link to that review. He certainly praises the book!

However, he’s not necessarily praising the book for the reasons the author would want. Tucker pretty much said that it’s more appropriate for the genre’s tombstone than it is a glorification of that style (which, I believe, Kenado was hoping to achieve).

The folk genre certainly represents the worst of music used at Mass. I lump this along with pretty much everything that is found in that tawdry Spirit and Song collection (volumes 1 and 2). Sadly, OCP, to a great extent, is responsible for perpetuating a lot of thsi bad music. This is not something to celebrate; rather, it is something that should concern us. OCP, based on my personal experience with some of the editors, seems to have not kept up with the geniune, authoritative documents of the Church and has pretty much ignored the writings of both the Venerable Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. They have really done more harm than good. Kenado’s pieces have also done some damage. It does not surprise me that he is trying to extol the genre that his musical publishing house is pushing.

 

[FrDavid96]

I confess, I played and sang for these in the late 60’s/early 70’s, too. Then I went to college and was exposed to chant and other good music, and there was no turning back.

OK, trivia question for all you oldsters: What song has the words, “Keep the fire burning,” and what is the next line?

Betsy

Keep the Fire Burnin’ REO Speedwagon (even though you didn’t ask)
and the next line is:
Let it keep us warm

 

[SMHW]

I have no intention of addressing the appropriateness of any of these styles of music for liturgical use.

But I do think there was a definite break in style of “popular Catholic music” sometime in the mid to late 1970s from that which was prevalent in the period directly after Vatican II. The earlier music, such as that of Ray Repp, did borrow heavily from the secular folk movement, just as Ken Canedo suggests. (While I believe Canedo does not say so, it’s my opinion that he is referring specifically to American folk music with European roots.) Naturally Ken Canedo (and his seminary classmate Bob Hurd) were probably very much influenced by that music. But they, the St. Louis Jesuits music (Glory and Praise) and the music that Haas and Haugen produced for GIA really does NOT fit the “folk” genre. It’s more rock and/or show tunes style. (I know from personal experience that Canedo and Hurd played together in a seminary college band which was more or less a rock band.) And since then the modern composers have experimented with Calypso, Gospel, South American Indian, jazz, Mariachi, and all kinds of other music, none of which really fit what we typically think of as folk music.

Again, none of this makes any of this music appropriate for liturgy. But just as secular folk music more or less fell out of popularity in mid 1970s, so did Catholic folk music. And just as secular music continues to undergo significant changes from what was popular in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, so does the popular Catholic music.

It has been my observation that in the last 20 years or so there has been renewed interest in the roots of secular music and that “modern Christian artists” (both Catholic and protestant) have been exploring their liturgical heritage.

 

[ljubim]

You just found one. Who knew it was that easy?

Just a question: what theological benefits have you experienced from the modern folk songs?

I’d love it if you listed some of these songs. I’ve been playing drums for seven years now (both auxiliary percussion and drum kits) at Mass and I’ve RARELY come across songs that do what you’re talking about. List them, if you can, and I’ll tell you their level of difficulty from a percussionist stand point.

“Love Has Come” is the only Matt Maher song I can think of which is how you described, the rest of his songs are all very reasonable with no time changes or syncopation. And in the case of “Love Has Come”, it wasn’t very difficult for us (plus those attending Mass had no issues singing it either). Keep in mind I’m the percussionist so I obviously need to pay attention to such things or else it will sound TERRIBLE. I find very few (if any) of the modern songs/hymns we do challenging from a instrument or vocal level (my vocal range is quite low and I lack vocal agility, so if I find it not difficult then the average person in the pews wouldn’t either).

The one I’m thinking is possibly Remembrance, the Communion song(please correct me if I’m wrong). I am really at a loss, I tended to forget quickly just because I sooo disliked the songs. There were some other ones too, not necessarily Matt Maher but all from the repertoire of modern Catholic guitar bands… I really wish I could remember the names, I just remember what a pain it was trying to learn them with my very basic sight reading skills. They were so complicated that I had to try and learn by ear, because the sheet music was absolute gibberish to me. Then on occasion we’d sing something like “Forty Days and Forty Nights” and it was so easy, the whole congregation sang along (active participation, right?) and we learned it so quickly that we could pick up harmonies too, just adding the the beauty. Just saying, people would complement us after we’d sing traditional songs, especially in Latin. They’d be just floored. But during the modern guitar songs, the rest of the youth choir were happy, but we sounded AWFUL and the congregation was uncomfortable. This isn’t a traditional parish or anything, it’s your regular Novus Ordo parish.

Wait . . . your complaint is that modern music is too difficult for choirs? Then either pick easier music, or get better at singing. Otherwise, that’s like complaining that the high C in Allegri’s Miserere is “too high” for people to sing, or that six- or eight-part Venetian-school choral pieces are “too complicated.”

I’m saying that we struggled with it because of its rockiness and lack of flow (people from a choral background, who sing more Catholic songs in high school than we do at Mass.) But to be honest, when the goal is to get the congregation to sing along, this so-called folk music just doesn’t do it. It’s so unpredictable, so unspiritual, so unrelated that I’m amazed that we were landed with this in the first place.

I heard a decent explanation on a recent CAL about the Upcoming changes to the Mass. She says that 1) It’s a business, and companies we all know make huge profits inventing new hymns (songs, excuse me ) every year so they can sell a yearly songbook. (Pointless). 2) What we have now is sort of like an altered Low Mass with hymns. There weren’t enough hymns or something, and so they made new ones when the Mass changed in this way. It’s called “Upcoming Changes to The Mass” if you’d like to look it up.

So it’s almost like saying that the transition to the Novus Ordo actually necessitated this(CAL, not me. Just my thoughts). And because of the general hurried atmosphere, it was almost inescapable that the new hymns would end up so sloppy and convey the ideologies of many involved in what they thought was the work of the Council, but who were in all actuality against it.

 

[Melchior_1]

Just a question: what theological benefits have you experienced from the modern folk songs?

You’re going to need to define “theological” benefits. Are you referring to songs which teach us Scripture and Church teaching? There are quite a few which flagrantly lift from Scripture. “Holy is His Name” and “I am Bread of Life” are two which I enjoy on a Scriptural level where they take the words directly from Scripture. “Behold the Lamb of God”, “At the Name of Jesus”, “I Will Rise”, and “Revelation Song” I find, although are not directly quoted Scripture verbatim, offer some solid food for thought. Really, if you use this as an argument I could just as easily say that if you’re going in with an attitude “oh man these songs give me nothing” then you’re going to get nothing in return.

The one I’m thinking is possibly Remembrance, the Communion song(please correct me if I’m wrong). I am really at a loss, I tended to forget quickly just because I sooo disliked the songs.

This doesn’t help things any. “I don’t know what they are, I just know I disliked them!”. Just because you disliked them doesn’t automatically make them “bad”, it just means you didn’t like them.

There were some other ones too, not necessarily Matt Maher but all from the repertoire of modern Catholic guitar bands… I really wish I could remember the names

You’d think if it was so many you’d remember at least one or two

I just remember what a pain it was trying to learn them with my very basic sight reading skills. They were so complicated that I had to try and learn by ear, because the sheet music was absolute gibberish to me.

I can’t read music either, yet I don’t have these problems either on a vocal level or percussion level with contemporary music.

Then on occasion we’d sing something like “Forty Days and Forty Nights” and it was so easy, the whole congregation sang along (active participation, right?) and we learned it so quickly that we could pick up harmonies too, just adding the the beauty.

Funny, my parish just participates regardless of the song.

Just saying, people would complement us after we’d sing traditional songs, especially in Latin. They’d be just floored. But during the modern guitar songs, the rest of the youth choir were happy, **but we sounded AWFUL **and the congregation was uncomfortable. This isn’t a traditional parish or anything, it’s your regular Novus Ordo parish.

When we do “traditional songs”, either in a contemporary style or in a traditional style, we sound good. When we do contemporary songs we sound good as well. The parish we belong to is very active and sings the songs without difficulty.

This may sound harsh, but it’s possible that the parish didn’t like you guys doing contemporary songs because, from the sounds of it, y’all weren’t very good at singing them. If you WERE good at them, they’d sing along (or at least help the process). That falls on your leader, ultimately.

This is my beef overall with music; a lot of people say a style of music or a song is bad. A lot of times it’s simply because the people doing the music aren’t very good. I see people on here complaining about strumming, people being too loud, etc. It’s possible that several complaints could be rectified if people had a semblance of skill, or maybe even just knew their limitations (if you can’t do harmonies, don’t do them except in practice). And this goes to regardless of what style is being used. Contemporary or traditional, if you can’t do it well, don’t do it at all.

An example; we’re quite good at my Church. I’ve fine tuned my skills for the last 11 years or so playing percussion at Mass and practicing during the week. We have one guy who composes in his spare time and plays the piano. Our leader is a music major who can play multiple instruments. We rotate singers, and each of them are excellent. We’re good, and it shows when we play a song, because people participate actively. But it also shows because we practice and know our limits. If there’s something we’re not sure of during practice, such as going through a new song, there are times we’ll scrap it and work on it later (ie; using the new song later). It only makes sense, right?

My point is we sound good, and that helps. Not sounding good does not help. And this applies to any kind of music. If there’s people who can’t do traditional music, either have no music at all or find some that you can do.

I’m saying that we struggled with it because of its rockiness and lack of flow (people from a choral background, who sing more Catholic songs in high school than we do at Mass.) But to be honest, when the goal is to get the congregation to sing along, this so-called folk music just doesn’t do it. It’s so unpredictable, so unspiritual, so unrelated that I’m amazed that we were landed with this in the first place.

And I’m saying we don’t struggle. I really can’t see the difficulty you’re talking about. My wife has a choral background and even taught choirs and she doesn’t see what you’re talking about. I do everything by ear and I don’t see (or hear) the struggle you’re talking about. Our congregation sings along fine. There is no lack of flow at all.

I don’t see the “unprectitable” and “unspiritual” that you speak of. One, you can’t even give an example of rapid time signature changes. If you’re going to make this claim, back it up. From the way you were talking it sounds as if there’s a whole list of these songs, yet you couldn’t list more than one (also; finding one or two does not make them all like that). Two, it may be unspiritual for you, but that is totally subjective and your opinion. I get plenty out of them and I’m not alone with that.

 

[VetA]

If you’re being serious…read the book

i dont have the money to purchase said book, if you could be so kind as to provide me a short explanation, i would be much obliged…

 

[MarkThompson]

i dont have the money to purchase said book, if you could be so kind as to provide me a short explanation, i would be much obliged…

The podcasts (here) are free, and will give you a good idea. I think you’ll find them quite interesting.

 

[snowlake]

LJUBIM,
I’ve been following your posts, and am sorry that you have had to put up with such opposition from those who really should know better. You have simply voiced your opinion, and since Melchior seems to think that everything is subjective and based upon opinion alone, then he should lay off. How ironic that he, being so “opinion based” , holds you to citing objective examples, and refutes those by putting forth objective statements himself.
You are only 18, and are still learning to express what you mean. It seems that he
and MarkThompson are much older than you, and their smart a** responses can only
be classified as bullying.
I admire you for your courage.

 

[MarkThompson]

Half-bleeped profanity and personal attacks are hardly the way to contribute postitively to any conversation, let alone this one, Snowlake.

 

[snowlake]

Half-bleeped profanity and personal attacks are hardly the way to contribute postitively to any conversation, let alone this one, Snowlake.

It was 2/3 bleeped.

Neither is nasty, sarcastic bullying. Knock it off.

Haven’t you ever heard the saying “Pick on someone your own size”?

 

[Melchior_1]

LJUBIM,
I’ve been following your posts, and am sorry that you have had to put up with such opposition from those who really should know better. You have simply voiced your opinion, and since Melchior seems to think that everything is subjective and based upon opinion alone, then he should lay off. How ironic that he, being so “opinion based” , holds you to citing objective examples, and refutes those by putting forth objective statements himself.
You are only 18, and are still learning to express what you mean. It seems that he
and MarkThompson are much older than you, and their smart a** responses can only
be classified as bullying.
I admire you for your courage.

ljubim offered an opinion. I shared some of mine based on my own experiences as a musician. But I also shared from a technical stand point that in my eleven years as a percussionist within the Catholic Church, I can count on one hand the amount of songs that do what ljubim described. This is not opinion; it is objective fact. It is not out of line for me to ask for some examples when ljubim said that there is apparently a lot of these songs out there (when I only know of two, one of which has been written by someone local to me area).

People can say what they want about contemporary songs, and are entitled to their opinion. But when someone lodges a technical complaint about them (such as time signatures etc), as a percussionist this is something I know about firsthand on an instinctual level and can speak objectively.

I don’t see myself being a bully here. I do see someone losing credibility because in addition to using profanity (on a Catholic message board), they also won’t take their criticisms to me directly. But that is neither here nor there.

I wouldn’t be shocked if this thread gets closed, which is funny; it’d closed over posts that have nothing to do with the OP.

 

[benedictgal]

I have had to suffer and endure through much of Kenabo’s music in my parish, most of it, in my opinion, being grossly unsuitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The settings are tawdry and slipshod. The Gloria sounds like it could have been incorporated into the theme song from “Cheers”. Kenabo’s book attempts to glorify a particular genre that really has no place in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

For those who think that Tucker is extolling the book, I would suggest that you re-read the review. He is praising it because it provides a missing link to his research, not for the genre itself. In fact, he notes that the book could very well be the tombstone for the genre.

It is time for OCP to wake up and smell the proverbial coffee. They and their composers, Kenabo being one of them, have contributed to the detriment of genuienly sacred music for the Mass and have introduced the cult of the banal. Most, if not all of Sacred and Song is not fit for the Mass. The fact that OCP would even put “Lean on Me” in their song book makes them lose whatever sliver of credibility they had. OCP has no ecclesial authority whatsoever. Just because it is a publishing house, that does not necessarily mean that everything OCP releases is fit for the Mass.

 

[Victorious]

I think that Dr. Esolen makes an excellent point–whatever this is, it’s not “folk” music, and the term is truly a weird one. I have come to appreciate many of these songs, but they aren’t folk songs and it continues to astound me that they have almost completely taken over Latin-Rite Catholic worship in the U.S. for decades.

A priest on EWTN once said: when the sun of culture is low on the horizon, even dwarfs cast long shadows.

 

[5Loaves]

The podcasts (here) are free, and will give you a good idea. I think you’ll find them quite interesting.

I’m just starting Chapter Ten(b). For anyone who is interested in the original topic, lest MarkThompson and I sound like broken records, the podcasts are very informative about the period which the book and the podcasts cover and, as has been said before, are limited to, that is 1966- 1970. Some sections I find more interesting than others. I’m not too keen about a few of the tunes that have stuck in my mind, annoying little music worms. LOL! Since many of the songs were written to be used in CCD classes or Young Adult meetings it makes sense they’d have catchy tunes.

It was interesting to me that in podcast Chapter Nine(d) Canedo begins with the so heart-wrenching folk song by Richard Fariña “Birmingham Sunday,” the same song I linked to in my earlier post as an example of what I termed in that post “folk music” as it came into the Civil Rights movement. He didn’t include it as a song that was ever sung in the Folk Mass, but as another example for understanding the context of the times, which the song does convey with such beauty and poignancy. I can’t hear it without feeling both the icy chill of that event and grief for the tragedy, one of so many bombings and murders during that period.

So far there are only three songs from this period of 1966-1970 that I’ve ever heard in a Mass: “The King of Glory [Comes]”,“I Am the Bread of Life”, “Make Me a Channel of Your Peace (Prayer of St. Francis)”. (I wasn’t Catholic at that time when the other songs in these podcasts were used in some Masses. I only came into the Church 23 years ago.)

I’d never heard of Sister Germaine Habjan, Chapter Nine(c). I found her music very haunting. Unique in her songs was the fact that when she performed, which she did in coffee houses, a familiar venue of the day, she always gave a brief catechetical introduction to each song.

The book arrived today- wow fast! It has no index but with the podcasts I think it will be easy to locate points of interest in the book.

 

[ljubim]

Thanks, snowflake, but because we’re all on the internet we’re kind of on a level playing field, and I’ve experienced a lot worse than arguing with somebody of a polar opposite opinion Will bullying tactics/ aggressive rhetoric convince me to change my mind? Haha no way, it will only affirm my original opinion!!

You’re going to need to define “theological” benefits. Are you referring to songs which teach us Scripture and Church teaching?

I mean what kind of things do you learn about God and about dogmas of the Church? I’m not familiar with the songs you mention so would you mind giving a few examples? Because you could convince me that there’s some theological merit in modern and folk songs.

You’d think if it was so many you’d remember at least one or two

Well are you familiar with Remembrance, does that change time signatures? And I’m not being evasive, but I have limited experience with this genre, and it’s possible that all I saw sheet music for were your handful that have wild time signatures. Plus whenever I heard such music besides in my parish church, it tended to be accompanied by extremely painful liturgical abuses, which tend to be more important in my memory than the names of songs they performed.

And about the skill level of our choir - well we were decent, your average youth choir. The guitarists were adults who really knew their stuff, and same with the piano and directors. The parish didn’t sing along because when everybody but me voted to sing these modern songs, we were forcing songs we’d heard outside our parish on them, that weren’t in the hymnal, that nobdy but us had ever heard before. This isn’t a main point of my argument, but just in this parish. The question is, where do we draw the line between a performance, and service?

 

[Melchior_1]

I mean what kind of things do you learn about God and about dogmas of the Church? I’m not familiar with the songs you mention so would you mind giving a few examples? Because you could convince me that there’s some theological merit in modern and folk songs.

I’ll send you a PM with some of these later because it’s getting late over here…plus we’ve totaled this thread

Well are you familiar with Remembrance, does that change time signatures? And I’m not being evasive, but I have limited experience with this genre, and it’s possible that all I saw sheet music for were your handful that have wild time signatures. Plus whenever I heard such music besides in my parish church, it tended to be accompanied by extremely painful liturgical abuses, which tend to be more important in my memory than the names of songs they performed.

I can see how if liturgical abuse is happening during the songs it might impact your perception of them.

I’ve never heard of “Remembrance” until I looked it up on Youtube. It’s was a collabo effort with Matt Maher and Matt Redman. There’s a couple of times there’s a tempo change, but it’s a straight 4/4 the whole way through so there’s no signature changes (going from 3/4 to 4/4 for example).

Maher’s involvement likely explains why the song that almost verbatim uses the Memorial Acclamation. That’s pretty cool.

And about the skill level of our choir - well we were decent, your average youth choir. The guitarists were adults who really knew their stuff, and same with the piano and directors. The parish didn’t sing along because when everybody but me voted to sing these modern songs, we were forcing songs we’d heard outside our parish on them, that weren’t in the hymnal, that nobdy but us had ever heard before.

I want to stress the fact I wasn’t meaning to insult you earlier by saying you (and your old choir) weren’t very good. I was pointing out that is one of the reasons why some parishioners wouldn’t be receptive/active.

At the risk of side tracking this thread an unprecedented THIRD time, this is where overhead projectors and whatnot come in handy. If you’re doing a song not in the hymnal, you can just throw them up on the screen and people have the words. The alternative, if your parish doesn’t have this (or you don’t like the idea of such devices being used at Mass) is print out sheets with lyrics on them and hand them out. Both of these techniques can (and IMHO) should be used any time a hymn/song/whatever which is not in hymnals is being used.

The question is, where do we draw the line between a performance, and service?

I think everyone here is in agreement it shouldn’t be a performance.

I’ll send you that stuff later today in a PM. I need some sleep!

Oh, and my apologies to 5loaves for derailing your thread. I’ll be ducking out now

 

[MarkThompson]

I’m just starting Chapter Ten(b). For anyone who is interested in the original topic, lest MarkThompson and I sound like broken records, the podcasts are very informative about the period which the book and the podcasts cover and, as has been said before, are limited to, that is 1966- 1970. Some sections I find more interesting than others. I’m not too keen about a few of the tunes that have stuck in my mind, annoying little music worms. LOL! Since many of the songs were written to be used in CCD classes or Young Adult meetings it makes sense they’d have catchy tunes.

It was interesting to me that in podcast Chapter Nine(d) Canedo begins with the so heart-wrenching folk song by Richard Fariña “Birmingham Sunday,” the same song I linked to in my earlier post as an example of what I termed in that post “folk music” as it came into the Civil Rights movement. He didn’t include it as a song that was ever sung in the Folk Mass, but as another example for understanding the context of the times, which the song does convey with such beauty and poignancy. I can’t hear it without feeling both the icy chill of that event and grief for the tragedy, one of so many church bombings at that time.

So far there are only three songs from this period of 1966-1970 that I’ve ever heard in a Mass: “The King of Glory [Comes]”,“I Am the Bread of Life”, “Make Me a Channel of Your Peace (Prayer of St. Francis)”. (I wasn’t in Catholic at that time when the other song were used in some Masses. I only came into the Church 23 years ago.)

I’d never heard of Sister Germaine Habjan, Chapter Nine(c). I found her music very haunting. Unique in her songs was the fact that when she performed, which she did in coffee houses, a familiar venue of the day, she always gave a brief catechetical introduction to each song.

The book arrived today- wow fast! It has no index but with the podcasts I think it will be easy to locate points of interest in the book.

It’s sad that many times discussion of liturgical music issues is nearly impossible, because so many people just want to complain about what happened at their parish last Sunday, instead of evaluating a historical period through historical lenses.

To tell the truth, like you I don’t remember very many of these songs, it was somewhat before my time. We did plenty of early St. Louis Jesuits material (Though the Mountains May Fall, In Earthen Vessels) from the first half of the '70s, some early stuff from the Dameans (All That We Have, which I think is in the podcasts), also from the '70s, and that sort of thing. Needless to say, everyone’s sung I Am The Bread of Life. I’m sure there was more from when I was very young that I just don’t remember. Ray Repp’s Peace, My Friends and Hear, O Lord sounded awfully familiar, but I just don’t remember. As I think I mentioned above, for some reason at dorm chapel Mass in college we did the horrid Agnus Dei from Missa Bossa Nova, which I guess was from 1966. I don’t think I’ve ever sung They’ll Know We Are Christians By Our Love in Mass, although it’s definitely one of the great songs from the same period and I know I’ve sung it elsewhere.

I’ll be interested to know what you think of the book!