Kill animal - is it a sin?

[Sixtus]

I hear what you say about animal liberation. This thread is not about them per se. But feel I must add my understanding of the facts:

Living in a part of East Anglia England, near the Broads. It is very beautiful. There used to be hundreds of natural species of animal, fish and birds in the water and surrounding river banks. They were reckoned to be among the finest in all Europe for their diversity of wildlife.

But we have an epidemic of water-rats which are devastating animals, birds and fish, killing and eating them. Often they just kill for the sake of it, even when they are not hungry. The broads are full of them. They are a real nuisance. Millions of pounds have been spent to trap and eliminate them. But they breed so prolifically that those which survived culling, have recovered their numbers before the culling and added to it.

They are not natives of England. They were brought from South America by some research group and their labs were broken into by some animal liberation organisation about 10-years ago and the water- rats released into the wild.

This is what animal liberation is all about. Animal liberation do not support the interests of animals. Because of them, many species have been devastated. Hundreds are at risk of extinction. Many species are now completely exintinct.

Being rats, they are also a health hazard. People living near river banks are now resorting to carrying hi-powered air rifles to kill them if they see them. They will attack and bite a humans and other land-based animals, with high risks to infection and health.

The attack was well orchestrated. They were deliberately released… It is my belief they knew exactly what they were doing when they released these into the wild. They are terrorists and should be treated as such.

 

[Beyrak]

This is what animal liberation is all about. Animal liberation do not support the interests of animals. Because of them, many species have been devastated. Hundreds are at risk of extinction. Many species are now completely exintinct.

I hear ya and agree. Some people feel they have no purpose or direction in life and they grab onto anything for the sake of grabbing onto something. I put PETA and other crazy, lunatic organizations in that group.

And because of a minority of a few crazy lunatics, they ruin the good intentions of many well meaning organizations.

I’ve had my fill of this thread, so I’m unsubscribing. Time to put some meat on the BBQ!

 

[mchale]

Just a thought, and jumping in on this thread late, but I must say, I am somewhat disturbed by some of the posts on here. Some people on this forum seem to want to equate killing animals with murder. While this might be an acceptable line of thought in the secular materialist philosophy of utilitarians like Peter Singer, it is not consistent with Christianity. If we are really Christian, we must really understand and embrace the notion that people are a special creation, endowed God with an inmortal soul in his likeness that makes us unique. As a result, killing a human is always a more grave matter than killing an animal, and only should be done under greatest need (self-protection, the death penalty (under certain circumstances), war, etc.).

As others in this thread have pointed out, we have been given dominion over Animals and stewardship. It creates an obligation to not kill animals uselessly (i.e. where the only point of killing the animal is killing the animal). We may kill an animal to use its body for food, clothing, housing, etc, for experiements. We may kill an animal to control its population, or to save other populations or to put an animal that is suffering out of its misery. When we do kill, we have a duty to kill as painlessly as is practical to minimize the animal’s suffering. Provided we have met those basic criteria, I cannot killing an animal is a sin. Indeed as has been pointed out, in the Bible the sacrifice of animals was mandated in the Old Testament, as was the consumption of animals at Passover.

So, as with many things, the answer to the initial question is, it depends .

–
Bill

 

[stinkcat_14]

I never had my question answered before, so let me ask it again.
Is it wrong to arrange for the spay of a pregnant cat if the end result is that the kittens will be aborted? The abortions occur because the kittens overdose on the anesthesia used to put the mother under. Now, my reasoning why I am willing to do it, is because there are too many cats in shelters already. Therefore, by taking new cats off the market, it increases the likelihood that the existing cats will be adopted rather than euthenized. So the question is, am I sinning or not?

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I never had my question answered before, so let me ask it again.
Is it wrong to arrange for the spay of a pregnant cat if the end result is that the kittens will be aborted? The abortions occur because the kittens overdose on the anesthesia used to put the mother under. Now, my reasoning why I am willing to do it, is because there are too many cats in shelters already. Therefore, by taking new cats off the market, it increases the likelihood that the existing cats will be adopted rather than euthenized. So the question is, am I sinning or not?

No! Your purpose is to control population. Cat abortion isn’t wrong or evil in any way. They are animals, they have no human soul.

 

[Sixtus]

the Bible the sacrifice of animals was mandated in the Old Testament, as was the consumption of animals at Passover.

But animals were used to ‘atone’ for human sinfulness. Onto them was loaded our sins and then they were killed in our place. Christ changed the need for animal sacrifices by becoming the ‘lamb’ of God.

We are no longer dependent on meat for food or animal skins for warmth.

 

[Sixtus]

Cat abortion isn’t wrong or evil in any way. .

hen logically, Human abortion isnt wrong of evil in any way…
I am against abortion. But if it is argued that it is ok to abort non-human babies then it is ok for humans also. There cannot be a dual morality. Either it is wrong to destroy new lie in the womb or it is not.

Cat’s may not have a ‘human’ soul but they have a psychi which is distinctive and typical of animal life. Ask any cat owner if their cat has a psychi [soul].

There is no psycho-nurological faculty that humans have, that other specy of animal does not. We are all animals, just that we are the highest and most intelligent species due to the presence of greater neo cortex.

 

[Sixtus]

Cat abortion isn’t wrong or evil in any way.

Then logically, Human abortion isnt wrong of evil in any way…
I am against abortion. But if it is argued that it is ok to abort non-human babies then it is ok for humans also. There cannot be a dual morality. Either it is wrong to destroy new lie in the womb or it is not.

Cat’s may not have a ‘human’ soul but they have a psychi which is distinctive and typical of animal life. Ask any cat owner if their cat has a psychi [soul].

There is no psycho-nurological faculty that humans have, that other specie of animal does not. We are all animals, just that we are the highest, most intelligent species due to the presence of greater neo cortex, which enables higher information processing, memory and language.

It also happens that due to the presence of a greater amount of neo-cortex, conscience emerges from this greater complexity. But that does not prove that lower animals are not conscious, just that they are not capable of perceiving and assimilating the world around them in the same way that we are.

 

[mchale]

But animals were used to ‘atone’ for human sinfulness. Onto them was loaded our sins and then they were killed in our place. Christ changed the need for animal sacrifices by becoming the ‘lamb’ of God.

We are no longer dependent on meat for food or animal skins for warmth.

Christ changed the need for animal sacrifice, however, there is nothing in the New Testament that indicates that the eating of animals is a forbidden practice. Christ consumed fish after his resurrection and Peter was given a vision allowing him to eat foods that Jews would normally consider unclean (which almost by definition would have to include meat, since most Jewish Dietary laws relate to meat in some way shape or form). Further the Council at Jerusalem specifically granted permission to eat meat to Gentile Christians.

Now mind you, one cannot argue that Christ ate meat because they lacked the ability to provide by other means. By the first century AD, sects of Hindus and Buddhists were already abstaining from meat. One could live perfectly adequately without meat even at the time of Christ. The fact that Christ and the Apostles ate meat clearly indicates that it is in no way sinful to consume meat.

The role of stewardship gives us both rights and responsibilities. We have the right to use animals to meet our own needs (even if alternate means exist to meet those needs) but we have a responsibility to use animals in a way that protects the species as a whole.

–
Bill

 

[stinkcat_14]

Then logically, Human abortion isnt wrong of evil in any way…
I am against abortion. But if it is argued that it is ok to abort non-human babies then it is ok for humans also. There cannot be a dual morality. Either it is wrong to destroy new lie in the womb or it is not.

Ah, but isn’t a big difference that humans are made in the image of God, while cats are not. They just think they are . Sorry couldn’t resist that one. Getting back to my point, we have two different moral codes for different beings because we have two different beings. That doesn’t mean that because we are made in God’s image, we can to whatever we want, but human life is qualitatively different.

 

[Meggie]

Then logically, Human abortion isnt wrong of evil in any way…
I am against abortion. But if it is argued that it is ok to abort non-human babies then it is ok for humans also. There cannot be a dual morality. Either it is wrong to destroy new lie in the womb or it is not.

Cat’s may not have a ‘human’ soul but they have a psychi which is distinctive and typical of animal life. Ask any cat owner if their cat has a psychi [soul].

There is no psycho-nurological faculty that humans have, that other specie of animal does not. We are all animals, just that we are the highest, most intelligent species due to the presence of greater neo cortex, which enables higher information processing, memory and language.

It also happens that due to the presence of a greater amount of neo-cortex, conscience emerges from this greater complexity. But that does not prove that lower animals are not conscious, just that they are not capable of perceiving and assimilating the world around them in the same way that we are.

Animals do not have a lasting soul. Cats don’t have magical powers of understanding, whatever material similaraities to animals we have they are NOT humans. We should treat them with civility, but an animal will never be able to hold a conversation, will never be able to go to heaven, will never have dominion over other creatures.

 

[mchale]

Then logically, Human abortion isnt wrong of evil in any way…
I am against abortion. But if it is argued that it is ok to abort non-human babies then it is ok for humans also. There cannot be a dual morality. Either it is wrong to destroy new lie in the womb or it is not.

On the contrary, you logic only follows if you equate the existence of an animal as being equal to the existence of a person. While all creation is from God, man is a special creation made distinct from the animals by the presence of a soul bearing the likeness of God.

Further, man was given dominion over the animals, he was not given dominion over other men.

Cat’s may not have a ‘human’ soul but they have a psychi which is distinctive and typical of animal life. Ask any cat owner if their cat has a psychi [soul].

The existence of a feline soul is irrelevant. We have no way of knowing whether that soul is immortal but even if it is, it is distinctly different than a human soul. Considering the fact that humans were singled out in Genesis as being made in the likeness of God makes us unique and special, placing us in a special relationship with God that animals lack.

There is no psycho-nurological faculty that humans have, that other specie of animal does not. We are all animals, just that we are the highest, most intelligent species due to the presence of greater neo cortex, which enables higher information processing, memory and language.

Humans, cannot be reduced to being mere animals. While biology can explain the differences between humans and animals, that biology cannot examine the human soul (or the soul of any creature for that matter). For that we must rely on revelation which assures us that our souls are unique and distinct from the souls of animals.

It also happens that due to the presence of a greater amount of neo-cortex, conscience emerges from this greater complexity. But that does not prove that lower animals are not conscious, just that they are not capable of perceiving and assimilating the world around them in the same way that we are.

According to you profile, you are Catholic, but your arguments are secular and materialist. Whats further, you are claiming a solution to the mind-body problem that no philosopher or scientists has ever proved. We can state that certain structures are consistent with beings that have a conscience, but we cannot show that they actually cause consciouness.

The Bible makes the unique claim for men that they have been made in the likeness of God. Our resemblence to other animals and shared evolutionary history not withstanding, any claims to moral equivalency between harming an animal to harming a human must be rejected based on the fact that we alone among God’s physical creation on Earth are made in his likeness.

–
Bill

 

[Sixtus]

humans are made in the image of God,

we have two different moral codes for different beings because we have two different beings.

That doesn’t mean that because we are made in God’s image, we can to whatever we want, but human life is qualitatively different.

While I have to agree with the third point entirely, I think that ‘animals’ per se are made in the image of God.

It is simply illogical to suggest that we are, they are not

We have two moral codes because we are arrogant and powerful

 

[Sixtus]

humans are made in the image of God,

we have two different moral codes for different beings because we have two different beings.

That doesn’t mean that because we are made in God’s image, we can to whatever we want, but human life is qualitatively different.

While I have to agree with the third point, I think that ‘animals’ per se are made in the image of God.

It is simply illogical to suggest that we higher animals are, and they, the lower animals are not

We have two moral codes because we are arrogant and powerful.

Not so long ago we saw people from Africa as sub-human and therefore could be abused, but now we realise that we were 100% wrong. They are every bit as human and intelligent as us and some. We have evolved our intelligence. One day we might even realise that we too are all animals.

All animal bodies are more or less the same with the organs in more or less the same place. Even brains look identical, it is only the size which differs.

 

[Celeste88]

I never had my question answered before, so let me ask it again.
Is it wrong to arrange for the spay of a pregnant cat if the end result is that the kittens will be aborted? The abortions occur because the kittens overdose on the anesthesia used to put the mother under. Now, my reasoning why I am willing to do it, is because there are too many cats in shelters already. Therefore, by taking new cats off the market, it increases the likelihood that the existing cats will be adopted rather than euthenized. So the question is, am I sinning or not?

Stinkcat, I volunteer at animal shelters. In one of the ones I volunteered at a few years ago they would spay pregnant cats. The cats fell into a depression afterwards. I don’t like the idea of spayiing pregnant animals. But whether it is a sin I I’m not sure… It would probably be a sin if the species was in danger of dying out, but on the other hand the female cat knows something is missing and not quite right. The policy at the shelter I work at now is we wait till the pregnant cat gives birth, spay the female and adopt out the kittens. Yes you are bringing more cats into the world, but all the kittens we adopt out are spayed/neutered and adopted out to (hopefully)good homes.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

I never had my question answered before, so let me ask it again.
Is it wrong to arrange for the spay of a pregnant cat if the end result is that the kittens will be aborted?

You confuse the value of animals with humans. It is my dear, a rediculous argument. God did not command the animals to go forth and multiply. I find it amazing that you are so confused to even ask this question. Because you must be confused about right to life issues as espoused in Catholic doctrine.

Understand that your feelings are subjective and have not much in common with God’s morality, this is why we need the Church.

 

[stinkcat_14]

I never had my question answered before, so let me ask it again.
Is it wrong to arrange for the spay of a pregnant cat if the end result is that the kittens will be aborted?

You confuse the value of animals with humans. It is my dear, a rediculous argument. God did not command the animals to go forth and multiply. I find it amazing that you are so confused to even ask this question. Because you must be confused about right to life issues as espoused in Catholic doctrine.

Understand that your feelings are subjective and have not much in common with God’s morality, this is why we need the Church.

I never once equated human and animal life, in fact, if you have bothered to read my other statements on this thread, you would have seen that. However, given that they are not equal doesn’t give us carte blanche to kill whenever we want. I just wanted somed reasoned thoughts on this issue, which fortunately some people gave me.

 

[Equus_Pallidus]

I never once equated human and animal life, in fact, if you have bothered to read my other statements on this thread, you would have seen that. However, given that they are not equal doesn’t give us carte blanche to kill whenever we want. I just wanted somed reasoned thoughts on this issue, which fortunately some people gave me.

All that being said it is a sad thing that the Church has not educted you in the difference between mankind, and animals. I must ask the question now of you, what do you believe the difference is?

 

[stinkcat_14]

All that being said it is a sad thing that the Church has not educted you in the difference between mankind, and animals. I must ask the question now of you, what do you believe the difference is?

Read what I have said on this thread and you will find your answer.

 

[mchale]

While I have to agree with the third point, I think that ‘animals’ per se are made in the image of God.

It is simply illogical to suggest that we higher animals are, and they, the lower animals are not

Illogical? Based on what premise? That they share similar genetics? That they share certain biological features?

If we take the Bible and the teaching of the Church as our premises it is not illogical at all. In the book of Genesis God created all the animals of the animals, and then, only when creating humans did he say they will be created in his image. It is wrong to kill men because of that image of God contained within them. Yet the Bible never says it is wrong to kill an animal for need.

We have two moral codes because we are arrogant and powerful.

We also have two moral codes because every species does. Every species will treat members of a different species different than a member of their own. More importantly, the Bible tells us that we are distinct from the animals. If you don’t believe the Bible and the teaching of the Church why do you claim to be Catholic?

Not so long ago we saw people from Africa as sub-human and therefore could be abused, but now we realise that we were 100% wrong. They are every bit as human and intelligent as us and some. We have evolved our intelligence. One day we might even realise that we too are all animals.

By logical extension at some point we will also realize that plants and fungus and bacteria are all also life, created by God and therefore subject to the same rights you want to extend animals. Hey, we will all starve to death, but at least we will treat mushrooms as our true brothers.

All animal bodies are more or less the same with the organs in more or less the same place. Even brains look identical, it is only the size which differs.

Again, you are reducing man to merely the sum of his material parts. No man, no woman is distinct from the animals except in that which cannot be seen in a dissection. Jesus did not come to die for the dogs and the horses, he came to die or us, for people, endowed by God with his image as the basis for our souls.

So put away the ideas you got by reading Richard Dawkins and Peter Singer and start actually looking at the world through your faith and not the lens of materialism.

–
Bill