J
JoeJetson
Guest
lumenorientale;5814392 :love: [/QUOTE said:
- Status
F
fultonfish
Guest
Fishing for sport?
L
lumenorientale
Guest
Sometimes…it depends on the group I am around. I certainly don’t make a big deal out of hunting in front of people that I know to be vegans, PETA members, or those big into animal rights. I don’t rub their noses into it, you know what I mean? Now, if they ask me, I will be honest. But again, I’m a lover, not a fighter, and I would prefer not to ruffle their feathers, or hurt their feelings. I just live my life, they live theirs. There is a vegan I work with, but she has never given me the feeling like she is judging me. We actually exchange some recipes.(like my curried apples–yummy!
) But there are others who do make me feel that way–unfortunately, it seems like the relationship is very conditional: agree with them or you’re out.I totally respect, and do understand on a certain level, why people choose to be vegan. But I don’t see it as a moral issue, as much as it is a preferential issue. I know good, holy, peace loving priests who are hunters, and others who are not. I don’t judge people on the basis of what they eat, or where they get their food.
However, bad, sloppy hunters who either are only in it for the trophy, or leave the animal to rot, or wound animals without taking responsibility for it make me very upset. So do fanatical PETA members who throw blood on people’s fur coats–I’m not big on fur, but I see this as destruction of someone’s property, if not outright assault and battery if the people are wearing said coats. There are extremists on both sides, which unfortunately colors how one side sees the other. The vast majority are not extremists. I, for one, don’t know a single vegan who goes around throwing blood on fur coats. Nor do I know a single hunter who is unethical in his practice.Well…I’m rambling again. You are a vegan, that’s cool. I accept that. All I ask is that you treat me with the same respect as I treat you.
A
athansor
Guest
Here’s a bit
First a few articles
ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/70/3/594S
medpagetoday.com/MeetingCoverage/DDW/5707
Some summaries
huffingtonpost.com/kathy-freston/a-solution-for-diabetes-a_b_312219.html
pcrm.org/magazine/gm06spring/veg_diets.html
From the ADA
From the British Medical Association
Some books with extensive references;
The China Study
[Eat for Life
](http://www.amazon.com/Eat-Live-Revolutionary-Formula-Sustained/dp/0316735507/ref=pd_sim_b_2)
So, that’s a bit that I could come up with in a hurry. I think there’s some proof of the health benefits of a vegetarian or vegan diet.
4
4elise
Guest
ah, shucks… thanksI love reading your posts. The love you have for God and for His people comes out in what you say. Just wanted to say thank you.
S
severus68
Guest
Many links have been posted on this and related thread on how this lifestyle is better for our health, the environment and the rest of God’s creation. This is the lifestyle God wanted and created for us. Man’s fall has led to violence in all aspects of life.
S
severus68
Guest
Hi again and welcome to this thread.
They do animal culling in Africa where the option is animal starvation. They dont like doing it. For elephants, they take out the entire family as if they do not, the survivers mourn their dead terribly. So sad, not for sport at all.
M
Marfran
Guest
I tried to phrase the OP simply, with no bias. I later came on the thread–after it had taken off without me–to add my opinion–and was quickly called judgemental etc.
I like pnewton’s assessment here: Hunting *only *for sport is wrong. I too do not see how it can be reconciled with Church teaching.
I would have to disagree with you, however, about population control. In the US animal numbers are purposefully manipulated. The continent did just fine with its wild populations before white man made his appearance. We have altered the natural predator /prey ratio, disrupted habitats, etc., etc. Wild populations of animals also control themselves. In times of famine wild animals do not breed prolifically, they conserve naturally. I do believe that as good stewards we need to pay attention to wild animals, address issues that affect their survival etc., but there is a lot of myth in the necessity to hunt to control populations of wild animals.
Ironically, we somehow only need to hunt specific groups of animals–like deer–while other populations (that we are not so interested in hunting) seem to manage all by themselves.
So, I do feel that hunting for the game of it is wrong. Hunting for the thrill, the chase, is for a personal pleasure and satisfaction that is detatched from need, and a living being is destoyed in the process of satisfying a desire that disregards the animal and serves no purpose, utility, or authentic need.
I like what pnewton said:*** I have killed animals, but never for sport. I know that I have no stomach for such an act and have only done so out of necessity. Even when I knew it was the right thing to do, it still took a lot out of me.***
I can not imagine how one can find thrill and pleasure in killing. If one were to kill an animal out of necessity, I would imagine that ***they would ***feel as pnewton, and that they would find discomfort in the act.
I will not recount my mother’s story, but she did have to kill out of necessity. And when it was no longer a necessity, she ceased to hunt, and did not develop a taste/pleasure for the hunt. It did not morph into a “sport” for her.
That being said, I think that hunting for food, ranks higher than participating in the factory farm meat industry, and purchasing meat from mistreated, abused animals. But that’s another thread. And it is understandable that one would purchase meat from the grocery store, and prefer not to kill one’s own meat. Because most people don’t have the stomach for killing, and it does take a lot out of a person.
I have tended to injured wildlife, the unlucky ones who got away. I have seen horrific injuries, witnessed the suffering, and often the subsequent death. And this is an experience that I wish for everyone. It is a perspective that can affect your perspective. And in all my dealings with animals, I have met so many wonderful, caring people. I think that being made in the image of God, means that we are compassionate and merciful to our fellow man, and to the creatures beneath us as well.
Thanks pnewton for your thoughtful post!!!
Many of the advantages spoken of are not exclusive to a vegetarian diet.
P
pnewton
Guest
I had one more thought and this is a good lead in. If one hunts game, I think it important to make sure one knows his own abilities and limitations. Taking low percentage shots and hoping for a lucky kill is reckless. And for goodness sake, if one must hunt and you do wound an animal, have the decency to track the animal even if it takes hours. I think the Church’s teaching need to be reiterated.
Causing animals to suffer unnecessarily = Bad
Unfortunately, your original post was extremely general.
Sport hunting can mean many different things. To address it in such a general manner is quite judgemental.
Perhaps you should explain precisely what is and is not (in your opinion) wrong.
F
fultonfish
Guest
C
CntrySngr72
Guest
As a hunter most of my life I can only give my :twocents:
When I first started hunting as a young boy with my father, I’ll never forget crying when dad shot that first Rabbit. It started yelling and sent shivers down my spine. But, as dad explained with the rabbit, we thank God for our food, and I also ask Him to relieve their suffering. When we started deer hunting I realized that these majestic animals were a creation of God, and were beautiful sights to behold. I also came to understand that God placed them here for us to survive on.
I’m reminded of the Passover. God told the people to take the blood of an unblemished lamb and place it on the door posts. But that wasn’t all that they were to do with that lamb…if you read closely they were also commanded to EAT the lamb. So if they were to use the blood and go to bed without eating it, they would get up in the morning and their first born son would be dead…eating meat is biblical!
Now, I personally confess that I have never got a deer - Oh, I’ve tried, but ‘buck fever’ got the best of me on more than one occassion. I grew up out west in Utah and 12 years ago moved to Indiana for a job and here you can’t rifle hunt, so I haven’t been in quite some time. However, I recently started shooting Bow and fell in love with it, and decided this year I would try my hand at bow-hunting.
If God grants me the shot to get a deer, I will try…not for the ‘sport’ of it, though the thrill of the chase is exhilirating, but for the meat itself. I love deer meat and its been a long time since I’ve had any. The farmers around here love for hunters to use their land to clear the deer overpopulation that eat their crops (soy beans and corn - stuff the vegans eat)…In Indiana we are allowed to take 1 buck and multiple doe’s…I have promised God that if I get more than one, the rest will go to the local food bank. (We have local processors who will process the meat for free and deliver it to the food bank.)
I am Pro-Life, from conception to natural death…but I also believe in putting food on the table for my family. And yes, in the beginning the clothes, bow, etc. are expensive - but over time the meat I’ll get from hunting will cost less and less compaired to the rising costs of processed meats.
When I first started hunting as a young boy with my father, I’ll never forget crying when dad shot that first Rabbit. It started yelling and sent shivers down my spine. But, as dad explained with the rabbit, we thank God for our food, and I also ask Him to relieve their suffering. When we started deer hunting I realized that these majestic animals were a creation of God, and were beautiful sights to behold. I also came to understand that God placed them here for us to survive on.
I’m reminded of the Passover. God told the people to take the blood of an unblemished lamb and place it on the door posts. But that wasn’t all that they were to do with that lamb…if you read closely they were also commanded to EAT the lamb. So if they were to use the blood and go to bed without eating it, they would get up in the morning and their first born son would be dead…eating meat is biblical!
Now, I personally confess that I have never got a deer - Oh, I’ve tried, but ‘buck fever’ got the best of me on more than one occassion. I grew up out west in Utah and 12 years ago moved to Indiana for a job and here you can’t rifle hunt, so I haven’t been in quite some time. However, I recently started shooting Bow and fell in love with it, and decided this year I would try my hand at bow-hunting.
If God grants me the shot to get a deer, I will try…not for the ‘sport’ of it, though the thrill of the chase is exhilirating, but for the meat itself. I love deer meat and its been a long time since I’ve had any. The farmers around here love for hunters to use their land to clear the deer overpopulation that eat their crops (soy beans and corn - stuff the vegans eat)…In Indiana we are allowed to take 1 buck and multiple doe’s…I have promised God that if I get more than one, the rest will go to the local food bank. (We have local processors who will process the meat for free and deliver it to the food bank.)
I am Pro-Life, from conception to natural death…but I also believe in putting food on the table for my family. And yes, in the beginning the clothes, bow, etc. are expensive - but over time the meat I’ll get from hunting will cost less and less compaired to the rising costs of processed meats.
R
redhen
Guest
“A sport may be defined as a contest between two, or more, parties who test their normally equally matched skills. But there are no equally matched parties in bird shooting. What characterises killing for “sport” is the unequal nature of the encounter, as witnessed by the rate and ease of the kills. Against guns, birds have little chance to escape, and most don’t or, if they do, die of their wounds. There is no such thing as the “sport” of killing, only humans enjoying themselves at the expense of animal life and suffering. It deserves the greatest moral censure.”
oxfordanimalethics.com/what-we-do/commentary/un-sporting-killings/
oxfordanimalethics.com/what-we-do/commentary/un-sporting-killings/
B
Bluegoat
Guest
I don’t think this holds out in other areas of life. It is not hard to think of “traditional” practices that have gone on for thousands of years that are morally objectionable. Or, the situation can change, and what was ok no longer is. Moose hunting around where I live is a good example, it used to be a great area for moose and lots hunted it.
But the situation is different now, because of the brain-worm that came with white-tailed deer. Moose are under intense pressure and the population has been decimated. Hunting them on the mainland is mostly illegal and there are a lot of efforts to encourage healthy populations.
But every year jerks who say “they have always hunted moose” get arrested, and others hunt them but don’t get caught.
4
4elise
Guest
I think you will see on this thread, even most of us vegans, make the distinction between those who hunt just for the ‘thrill’ and those who feed their families.
While I do not eat any meat I believe engaging in careful, legal, hunting to be much preferable to partaking of the animals raised in the factory farming where animals do not live natural lives, have been bread to be caricatures of their breed - cause land and water pollution - this is what I most strongly object to…
The Holy Father:
Forgive me if this question - from a non hunter seems so uninformed — when hunting with an arrow how much chance is there for injury and not a kill vs using a riffle? Do the animals live longer after being hit with an arrow? I just hope you get very good at this before you make an attempt to be sure that you can take the animals quickly.
I have another question - from an uninformed non hunter.
I understand the deers run fast - but if the goal is to eliminate them because they are pests to farmers is there another way to capture them beside shooting them?
M
Marfran
Guest
Right on!!!
I highly recommend the writings of Andrew Linzey–fabulous theologian and ethicist!
Assuming the problem being addressed is population control, what exactly are you going to do with them once captured? Releasing them elsewhere does not solve the issue.
As for keeping nuisence deer away, the deer eventually get wise to whatever trickery is put in place and continue to trespass where they are not wanted.
M
Marfran
Guest
Good post! We must continually reassess what we do and why, and what has changed to make any situation different. “Tradition” often needs to adapt to current circumstances and new information.I don’t think this holds out in other areas of life. It is not hard to think of “traditional” practices that have gone on for thousands of years that are morally objectionable. Or, the situation can change, and what was ok no longer is. Moose hunting around where I live is a good example, it used to be a great area for moose and lots hunted it.
But the situation is different now, because of the brain-worm that came with white-tailed deer. Moose are under intense pressure and the population has been decimated. Hunting them on the mainland is mostly illegal and there are a lot of efforts to encourage healthy populations.
But every year jerks who say “they have always hunted moose” get arrested, and others hunt them but don’t get caught.
I think I posted this in another thread, but it bears repeating here.
True morality is not dictated by time.
- Status