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bigfootbob
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It’s not the killing that thrills -it’s the whole hunt.
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Marfran
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Right to the heart of the matter. You always have such good perspectives and insight!!!
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Brendan
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Hunters do not hurt some ONE, they kill some THING. And even that, they strive to do so without pain.
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bigfootbob
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Hey Brendan, what’s the deal with all the green sheep? 
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Brendan
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Yes, last weekend we trapped an killed a raccon. The little bugger was the one who raided our chicken coop ( a backyard family coop) and killed all 6 of our hens.
Then it went on to raiding our cat’s food.
So we trapped it, and my son (11) shot it in the head with an air rifle, (killed instantly).
Being a good homeschool family, we weren’t about to let it go to waste. So we got our kids together, and the homeschool family across the street, and had a disection. My son brain tanned the hide and he’s going to make a coonskin cap out of it. The meat we stuck on a spit and roasted it over our fire pit ( we had declared the day “Frontier Day” and consentrated the lesson on frontier life.
So yes, even pest control can involve eating the meat ( I will draw the line on rats though)
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Brendan
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Which , of course, bring up the subject of pest control.
Here in Michigan, modern farming has created a virtual breeding haven for deer. It is estimated that there are 3-4 times as many deer in Michigan now than there were 4 centuries ago, and the population is actually climbing,
So deer hunting here is almost a state holiday. Most of the unions have opening day as a contract holiday, and outside of metro areas, most of the schools have a day off as well.
And the reason is simple. Deer need a combination of open space to feed, and woodland to bed down in. Michigan has huge numbers of smaller farms next to woodlots. So deer have access to huge food supplies during the summer and breed extensively.
But those crops are harvested in the fall. About 1/3 of the deer population would die of starvation during the winter. So the state issues hunting permits for about 1/3 of the deer population. And that is a LOT of permits. In the Upper Pennisula, deer outnumber people about 2 to 1.
So yes, we take the deer, because it’s a quicker death for the deer than letting it starve, and it’s better in our stew pots than rotting on the forest floor
And most of the soup kitchens (like the Capuchin Soup Kitchen in Detroit) put out requests for venision donations. So our family, being supportive of the Franciscans, aim for one deer for the Pot , and one deer for the Friar (as my dad would always say)
Here in Michigan, modern farming has created a virtual breeding haven for deer. It is estimated that there are 3-4 times as many deer in Michigan now than there were 4 centuries ago, and the population is actually climbing,
So deer hunting here is almost a state holiday. Most of the unions have opening day as a contract holiday, and outside of metro areas, most of the schools have a day off as well.
And the reason is simple. Deer need a combination of open space to feed, and woodland to bed down in. Michigan has huge numbers of smaller farms next to woodlots. So deer have access to huge food supplies during the summer and breed extensively.
But those crops are harvested in the fall. About 1/3 of the deer population would die of starvation during the winter. So the state issues hunting permits for about 1/3 of the deer population. And that is a LOT of permits. In the Upper Pennisula, deer outnumber people about 2 to 1.
So yes, we take the deer, because it’s a quicker death for the deer than letting it starve, and it’s better in our stew pots than rotting on the forest floor
And most of the soup kitchens (like the Capuchin Soup Kitchen in Detroit) put out requests for venision donations. So our family, being supportive of the Franciscans, aim for one deer for the Pot , and one deer for the Friar (as my dad would always say)
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Marfran
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Biblically speaking you are wrong. And science is not on your side either. Animals are not THINGS, they are living beings that feel pain and are capable of suffering.
This thread is about hunting for “sport,” not “need.”
Your rural lifestyle is interesting, you seem to enjoy killing THINGS. You are very descriptive about it.
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JoeJetson
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Not to pick on you, but you are living in fairy tale land. Your neighboring states do not respect your DNR management. thedeerhunt.com/Michigan%20DNR%20Deer%20Managers%20NEED%20to%20Go.htmWhich , of course, bring up the subject of pest control.
Here in Michigan, modern farming has created a virtual breeding haven for deer. It is estimated that there are 3-4 times as many deer in Michigan now than there were 4 centuries ago, and the population is actually climbing,
So deer hunting here is almost a state holiday. Most of the unions have opening day as a contract holiday, and outside of metro areas, most of the schools have a day off as well.
And the reason is simple. Deer need a combination of open space to feed, and woodland to bed down in. Michigan has huge numbers of smaller farms next to woodlots. So deer have access to huge food supplies during the summer and breed extensively.
But those crops are harvested in the fall. About 1/3 of the deer population would die of starvation during the winter. So the state issues hunting permits for about 1/3 of the deer population. And that is a LOT of permits. In the Upper Pennisula, deer outnumber people about 2 to 1.
So yes, we take the deer, because it’s a quicker death for the deer than letting it starve, and it’s better in our stew pots than rotting on the forest floor
And most of the soup kitchens (like the Capuchin Soup Kitchen in Detroit) put out requests for venision donations. So our family, being supportive of the Franciscans, aim for one deer for the Pot , and one deer for the Friar (as my dad would always say)
I personally don’t respect a lot of the DNRs, but Michigan IS probably the worst. DNR management is not about what’s doing the best for the animals, or being good stewards, it’s about licenses and revenue and making hunters happy.
If the DNR was focusing on the stewardship concept of taking care of the earth and her animal life, there would be a lot less hunting going on. Maybe even none at all.
The bottom line is that people **enjoy **hunting. Hunting will cease when people cease to enjoy it. For most people it is not about survival or feeding the family, though there will be people where this IS the legitimate case.
For most people it is about the enjoyment that they derive from the chase and the deed, and in giving their visceral account of…
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Brendan
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It’s a Moral Theology pun. Those sheep are Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperence.Hey Brendan, what’s the deal with all the green sheep?
The Four Cardinal Vert Ewes.
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Brendan
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They are still THINGS, they are not persons, moral actors. They certainly have Sensative souls, in that they can gather information from the senses. In this they differ from plants, which have simply vegatative souls. But they do not have the rational souls that humans do. They, therefore cannot rationalize the experiental nature of the senses like a human can.
Actually, I live in suburban Detroit, hence why we had to use trap the animal and use an air rifle instead of simply shooting it with a .223 Remy whenever we saw it near the chicken coop. Michigan has a ‘right to farm act’ that allows any property owner to conduct an agricultural activity on their property. We have chosen to raise chickens ( 8 of them in an 8’ x 10’ coop with a 10’ x 10’ run, so they have plenty of room. Or at least they did until the raccoon broke into the coop.
Local animal control does not do live animal removal, and simply releasing it in my neighbors backyard would have done nothing. The city suggested placing the trap in a large tub of water, (they certainly would not suggest firearms). But we used the air rifle to make the death a lot quicker than drowning would have been.
And if this is descriptive, fine. I could also offer a description of my wife killing carrot plants too. Pulled them right out of the ground. Though, like the raccoon, it died painlessly . She even skinned those too come to think of it.
Now one could argue that those carrots died needlessly, that we could have just purchased pre-packed and skinned carrots at the supermarket. But, as I said, we homeschool, so that is an educational experience for the kids as well. So I suppose that too is for sport, or at least education and not need.
Perhaps I should chastize my children for their excitement at finding the carrots in the garden and then causing their deaths.
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severus68
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I am with you on that. Enjoyment of the suffering of another, human or not is not right , to say the least.
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Brendan
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None of those points address the reason for MI’s deer hunting practices. That article seems to focus on the so called ‘need’ to get big bucks. If one is truely hunting for meat and for population regulation, the size of the antlers are meaningless. That is for trophy hunters.
Rather, as I mentioned above, the purpose of MI’s hunt is primarily to cull the herds. So yes, we shoot spike bucks, and doe permits are very easy to get.
But that is not why most of us are out there. We are out there because we like free range venison and there are plenty of farmers who would like a lot of the deer gone.
This guy is from Iowa. Iowa has far less woodland that Michigan does. As I mentioned, we have large percentages of our state that has more deer than people, can Iowa, or Ilinois, or even Ohio say the same. So yes, our deer management practices will be different.
So your link simply reinforced my point. The farms support too many deer in the summer than can survive in the winter. They will die, and die a slow death. It is over all better for the herds for some to be taken in the fall, so a full herd does not eat up all the available food by January. It would be a pretty bleak February for the herd if that happened. And given that, you post a link supporting management for trophy hunting
In Metro Detroit, where hunting is generally prohibited, the municipalites hire sharpshooters to do the exact same thing. So what a metro area farmer has to pay for, outstate farmers get for free (and the state gets some revenue on top of it)
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Brendan
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That’s why everyone aims for the quick kill, so there is no suffering.
The ideal situation is the deer comes prancing along and gets a .30 round into the brain. It doesn’t suffer at all, and no meat is lost.
Heck the round is even supersonic, so it doesn’t even hear the shot and the round destroys the brain faster than the nerves can report the hit.
I don’t know of a single hunter who takes enjoyment in the animal suffering.
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severus68
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I am glad to hear that it is a quick death. I am against hunting for the the thrll, for trophies, for the sport. It is not a sport.
I have seen this way to many times.
It is a red herring at best.
People are consistantly mischaracterizing the enjoyment of the hunt with the enjoyment of suffering. These are not the same thing, and I have yet to hear anyone claim to enjoy the suffering of another.
It most certainly is.
In fact it is in that catagory of the most difficult sports, the ones where the competition is with yourself.
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bigfootbob
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Heck yeah I enjoy hunting. It’s not that I enjoy killing something, but I enjoy the hunt. Theres nothin wrong with that.
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Brendan
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bigfootbob
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I seeIt’s a Moral Theology pun. Those sheep are Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperence.
The Four Cardinal Vert Ewes.
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Brendan
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I was simply describing the average Michigan hunter’s ideal. Some others would seek for a heart shot, which is almost as quick ( the loss of blood pressure causes loss of conscienceness) because it saves the head for mounting. Which is, I suppose another way for not wasting it. That tends to leave the pectoral muscle on that side more usable for hamburger than steak, and I’d personally rather have the steak and an empty wall than a mount and a burger.
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