Killing Animals for "Sport"

[mario_grgic]

So are you telling me God has changed? And St. Francis himself was not opposed to eating meat.

Are you really that ignorant of God? There are thousands of examples of God changing his mind, sometimes directly because of being asked by people (remember the story of Abraham arguing with God, and having God not destroy the city if there is one righteous person in it, but there are others).

And really does changing your mind make you something new? Does being sad or mad make you a new man?

You need to look into the doctrine of immutable God a little deeper and understand what is really meant by that.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

(remember the story of Abraham arguing with God, and having God not destroy the city if there is one righteous person in it, but there are others).

.

God being God, knew the outcome of the conversation with Abraham before it even started. It was a test for Abraham. Not Abraham making God change his mind.

 

[CWBetts]

Are you really that ignorant of God? There are thousands of examples of God changing his mind, sometimes directly because of being asked by people (remember the story of Abraham arguing with God, and having God not destroy the city if there is one righteous person in it, but there are others).

And really does changing your mind make you something new? Does being sad or mad make you a new man?

You need to look into the doctrine of immutable God a little deeper and understand what is really meant by that.

You need to understand how God interacts with his creation. I understand the immutability of God. You have said killing animals is ALWAYS wrong. Both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, God commanded to kill and eat. Don’t believe me? Look it up! There is absolutely no basis in Scripture or Tradition for you radical agenda of placing animals on equal status with man. I recommend you meditate on the Scriptures so you can understand that Moses or Abraham never convinced God to “change his mind.”

 

[chain]

Human anguish should probably be considered, too: many humans would be horrified if, say, dogs were caught with baited hooks and released the way fish routinely are.

Many Humans might be horrified, but I have known trappers to use baited hooks to catch (and destroy) certain predators (coyotes). That said, the practice is probably illegal now. Still, claw traps are commonly used in trapping. They are very effective, if you disregard the pain inflicted. I honestly do not know if they are any less painful than live traps - we don’t think like animals, or feel pain like them.

 

[redhen]

You need some good Biblical and Magesterial evidence to back up your claim that animals are equal with humans. Animals have no rights except to be spared undue suffering.

There are different views on many topics in the bible. So it all depends on which ones you pick, and how you interpret them.

19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 3:19

20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the human spirit goes upwards and the spirit of animals goes downwards to the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?

Ecclesiastes 3.20-22

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Killing animals is unethical period. They are sentient beings fully capable of experiencing pain and suffering, and I think it’s time we got rid of the old primitive shackles we put on our minds and realized that they are our brothers and sisters.

I think it’s about time we re-think animal rights from the core, and finally give them the legal protection they deserve.

I think we Catholics should play a major role in this revival of our thought, it is a unique opportunity to lead the way out of darkness.

For some background on animal rights, ethics, biblical foundations of animal rights etc take a look at

all-creatures.org/ca/ark.html

Also, an insightful investigation of how we got here and how we might proceed from the “lawyers” perspective:

cup.columbia.edu/media/3839/francione-excerpt.pdf

I’m really glad to say that in predominantly catholic Spain, apes are given actual legal rights, a first country in the world to do so, and I hope more follow their lead, and extend it to other species.

What you are stating is practically the philosophy of Peter Singer…that the capacity of being “sentient” is what gives an entity rights. There is the extreme slippery slope…human embryos, then might not be sentient, so would rank behind a monkey or mouse.

No. Humans are special and have rights because we are HUMAN,

 

[bigfootbob]

How is recognizing that great apes are closest to us, have language and culture, and self aware and hence really capable of suffering in ways very close to us, and protecting them so that medical or otherwise experiments are not done on them, by giving them legal rights, in any way lessening uniqueness of the humans?

If anything it tells more about humans to do so, it says a lot about awareness some of us have reached, and makes us even more unique.

Would you rather have medical experiments tested on humans? It has to be tested on something. I don’t know what legal rights they get, but that’s crazy.

 

[Marfran]

I hope my previous wasn’t taken as too argumentative.

The whole point of these threads is to discuss, examime, and share perspective. I really appreciate folks who try to debate and enlighten us and use supportive evidence–quotes, Biblical passage, scientific information, other links to information etc.

One difficulty that I have found in these threads is with people who like to use the words “judgemental” and/or “accuse/accusatory.”

We may all present our opinions, we can all expect to have our opinions dissected and countered, and no one should be offended by that. We are all here to THINK and to SHARE, to discuss and to debate.

Those comments were not specific to you Verdical, I had just finished reading a number of posts.

So by all means, everybody share your thoughts, provide supportive evidence, and expect that someone else will have a divergent view.

 

[Marfran]

The answer to this question is complex and not a simple “yes” or “no” from a Catholic moral standpoint. Humans have dominion over all creatures, yet causing unnecessary suffering or death to them is contrary to human dignity (we were created for better) and therefore immoral. So what is the balance here?

In many places, hunting licenses are issued for population control. Unrestricted and without the natural predators and others curbs that used to exist, some game animal populations would grow to unsustainable levels, causing mass die-offs and/or serious ecological damage. Hunting animals in these situations is fully compatible with the command of God to be good stewards of the earth.

On the other hand, hunting animals without any good reason, inflicting fear (which I believe is worse to animals even than pain), is not compatible with stewardship.

Other factors to consider are the method of killing (is it fast and painless, or long and drawn-out, as with some kinds of trapping?) and the capacity of the animal species in question to suffer. Human anguish should probably be considered, too: many humans would be horrified if, say, dogs were caught with baited hooks and released the way fish routinely are.

This is a good post! I would have to say that steel leg hold traps are completely, and totally inhumane. I would hope for them to be completely outlawed and I would hope that no Catholic would ever consider using one.

 

[severus68]

St. Francis of Assisi had no qualms about calling various animals brothers and sisters, because that’s what they are. Does that mean they are equal to us? No, I would hope not, otherwise how are they different than us?

We are called the children of God, does that mean we are equal to God or gods? Of course not.

Yes, because of the sin and hardness of hearts God may have required animal sacrifices, but Jesus has certainly taught otherwise, that God seeks repentant heart and no more burned offerings.

Well said.

 

[severus68]

There are different views on many topics in the bible. So it all depends on which ones you pick, and how you interpret them.

19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 3:19

20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the human spirit goes upwards and the spirit of animals goes downwards to the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?

Ecclesiastes 3.20-22

Exactly.

 

[Marfran]

There are different views on many topics in the bible. So it all depends on which ones you pick, and how you interpret them.

19 For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. Ecclesiastes 3:19

20 All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knows whether the human spirit goes upwards and the spirit of animals goes downwards to the earth? 22 So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?

Ecclesiastes 3.20-22

We all have the same breath, and experience the physical world very similarly. That is not to say that we are equal to animals, and that is not to say that we, being superior, can do whatever we want to animals to please whatever whim or vanity itches us.

 

[Marfran]

They are NOT our brothers and sisters.

You have an issue with St. Francis???

 

[Marfran]

St. Francis of Assisi had no qualms about calling various animals brothers and sisters, because that’s what they are. Does that mean they are equal to us? No, I would hope not, otherwise how are they different than us?

We are called the children of God, does that mean we are equal to God or gods? Of course not.

Yes, because of the sin and hardness of hearts God may have required animal sacrifices, but Jesus has certainly taught otherwise, that God seeks repentant heart and no more burned offerings.

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Marfran]

So are you telling me God has changed? And St. Francis himself was not opposed to eating meat.

St. Francis was a vegetarian for at least a portion of his life and is documented in the book ***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***by Dr. Holly Roberts. amazon.com/Vegetarian-Christian-Saints-Holly-Roberts/dp/0975484400/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1256828177&sr=8-1 St. Francis’ relationship with animals is well worth exploring.

 

[vz71]

How is recognizing that great apes are closest to us, have language and culture, and self aware and hence really capable of suffering in ways very close to us, and protecting them so that medical or otherwise experiments are not done on them, by giving them legal rights, in any way lessening uniqueness of the humans?

It gives qualities that are uniquely human to animals.

Please provide proof of the language and culture of apes.

 

[vz71]

WOW! Are you that old?

Not quite. But I can read.

 

[Godscre]

all-creatures.org/hr/hrajews.htm give some Biblical insight into those who hunted in the Bible.

I agree that hunting is not necessary simply because we don’t need meat to survive, we don’t need to thin the herds (other than not wanting our flowers eaten) and to reduce Lyme disease (which I had). Lyme can be transferred from birds, and other mammals with ticks.
We were created to be vegetarian (actually vegan) as all animals were, until the Fall when sin entered the world.
Now we are to restore nature as God’s servants and His children as Romans 8,19-22 states.
Isn’t it time?

 

[vz71]

Yes, because of the sin and hardness of hearts God may have required animal sacrifices, but Jesus has certainly taught otherwise, that God seeks repentant heart and no more burned offerings.

Well, your statement was “always wrong”
And that means forever. For all time.
You should be prepared to explain why God took action that was wrong.

Then you also need to explain why God ordered Peter to kill and eat. (Acts 10:13)
When killing animals is “always wrong”

 

[CWBetts]

all-creatures.org/hr/hrajews.htm give some Biblical insight into those who hunted in the Bible.

I agree that hunting is not necessary simply because we don’t need meat to survive, we don’t need to thin the herds (other than not wanting our flowers eaten) and to reduce Lyme disease (which I had). Lyme can be transferred from birds, and other mammals with ticks.
We were created to be vegetarian (actually vegan) as all animals were, until the Fall when sin entered the world.
Now we are to restore nature as God’s servants and His children as Romans 8,19-22 states.
Isn’t it time?

This is ridiculous. We have omnivorous physiology.