killing in the military

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Steven Merten:
Hello dhgray,

So as long as it is not you in a Nazi concentration camp, your not going to fight. As long as it is not you on a school playground being killed by some waco, you are not going to protect. As long as it is not you under suffering the atrocities of Milocivich, you are not going to kill to protect the innnocent. If it is you, then kill away. Is this your understanding of being a Christian?
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Steven my brother, Please don’t misunderstand my posting. The intent was to say that we, the US Military, does not go around just shooting people. We never engage a group without just cause. We never fire unless given a direct order or in self-defense.
 
Sir Knight:
It’s even more serious than that. Let’s not forget that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of priests and even bishops, serving in our military as chaplins. They are in service to God and 777’s statement implies that they are in service to the devil.

What did Jesus say was the one unforgivenable sin? Wasn’t it to attribute things of God to the devil? Isn’t that what 777 is doing by accusing those in God’s service to be in the devil’s service?
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777’s statement implies they are all in service to the devil, whether in the military or not. His comment about fashioning Catholic doctrine “just to appease the goverments and all the secular,” was directed at the CCC, which states legitimate defense can be “a grave duty” and that public officials “have the right and duty to impost on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.”

I have asked him flat out if he rejects the Magisterium.
 
vern humphrey said:
777’s statement implies they are all in service to the devil, whether in the military or not.
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Yeah, I caught that. Which is why I challenged him to either back up his claim OR apologize to the millions that he has slandered. While that is a pretty big insult against a large number of people, it is still just an insult. However, to accuse priests & bishops who are in service to God, to be in service to the devil comes very close to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
 
vern humphrey said:
777’s statement implies they are all in service to the devil, whether in the military or not. His comment about fashioning Catholic doctrine “just to appease the goverments and all the secular,” was directed at the CCC, which states legitimate defense can be “a grave duty” and that public officials “have the right and duty to impost on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.”

I have asked him flat out if he rejects the Magisterium.
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You’ve all got it wrong. I didn’t say all the priests and magigisterium and the Pope were all in sevice of the devil, I ONLY referred to the secular the goverment and the military. The magisiterium can interpet the bible any way they want. I would NEVER say all priests and the church were for the devil. I AM aware of the unforgivable sin. That’d be bollocks to say something like that!!:eek: It’s a BIG misunderstanding here!! So help me.
 
And in answer to your reply, NO, I would NEVER reject The Magisterium. So help me. And if i caused any controversy, which i did, FORGIVE ME. When i said they were in sevice to the devil, I referred ONLY to the military and the goverments, NEVER to the priests the church, and The Magisterium.I am aware of The Unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy against The Holy Ghost. And as for the chaplins in the service, forgive me; they can do what they want. All I wanted was give my interpetations and viewpoint on what i thought, NOT blaspheme the church, not even the chaplins. Sorry.
----777.
 
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777:
When i said they were in sevice to the devil, I referred ONLY to the military and the goverments
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  1. *] You made a powerful statement – kindly explain WHY the Word of God would praise those in Satan’s service calling them Christians, God-fearers, and men & women of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16)?

    *] There are hundreds, if not thousands, of priests and even bishops serving in the military as chaplins. Your statement of the military being in Satan’s service accuses those in God’s service to be in Satan’s service and to attribute the things of God to the devil is defined as blasphemy against The Holy Spirit – the one unforgivenable sin.
 
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777:
You’ve all got it wrong. I didn’t say all the priests and magigisterium and the Pope were all in sevice of the devil, I ONLY referred to the secular the goverment and the military. The magisiterium can interpet the bible any way they want. I would NEVER say all priests and the church were for the devil. I AM aware of the unforgivable sin. That’d be bollocks to say something like that!!:eek: It’s a BIG misunderstanding here!! So help me.
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Here is the entire exchange:
Originally Posted by gilliam
Here is what the Catechism says:

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense. Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.107
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And your reply:
You sure they didn’t write that just to appease the goverments and all the secular?
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Now, whom do you mean by “they?”

The authors of the Catechism of the Catholic Church were the bishops under the supervision of the Pope. Read the Pope’s Apostolic Letter included in the Catechism.

To suggest that “they” wrote " just to appease the goverments and all the secular" is a slander on the Church.
 
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777:
And in answer to your reply, NO, I would NEVER reject The Magisterium. So help me. And if i caused any controversy, which i did, FORGIVE ME. When i said they were in sevice to the devil, I referred ONLY to the military and the goverments, NEVER to the priests the church, and The Magisterium.I am aware of The Unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy against The Holy Ghost. And as for the chaplins in the service, forgive me; they can do what they want. All I wanted was give my interpetations and viewpoint on what i thought, NOT blaspheme the church, not even the chaplins. Sorry.
----777.
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Then why did you say:
You sure they didn’t write that just to appease the goverments and all the secular?
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Do you accept the Catechism as the authoritative teaching of the Catholic Church, including Paragraph 2310?
 
vern humphrey:
Here is the entire exchange:
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And your reply:

Now, whom do you mean by “they?”

The authors of the Catechism of the Catholic Church were the bishops under the supervision of the Pope. Read the Pope’s Apostolic Letter included in the Catechism.

To suggest that “they” wrote " just to appease the goverments and all the secular" is a slander on the Church.Ok, all I did was ask, I NEVER meant that to be a slander the the church. I meant those that weren’t Catholics priests. Sorry If I had asked that too. But I will say one thing, as will my wife–if we had to defend a nation, if not a world with violence, bloodshed, hurting people and disfirguring them, mureder, even denying them a chance to repent, we want no part of fighting. But all the same, sorry for causing a furor.
 
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777:
Ok, all I did was ask, I NEVER meant that to be a slander the the church.
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The question is, why did you ask?

By saying "You sure they didn’t write that just to appease the goverments and all the secular? you clearly impugn the bishops, the Pope, and the Magisterium.
I meant those that weren’t Catholics priests.
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The Catechism was not written by people who “weren’t Catholic priests!!”
Sorry If I had asked that too. But I will say one thing, as will my wife–if we had to defend a nation, if not a world with violence, bloodshed, hurting people and disfirguring them, mureder, even denying them a chance to repent, we want no part of fighting. But all the same, sorry for causing a furor.
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Yet the Catechism says you have a duty, and that our national leaders have a duty to call upon you.

Do you accept the Catechism, including Paragraph 2310?
 
Let’s see …

  • *] You slandered millions of service men & women, both living & dead by accusing them of being in Satan’s service but you’ve been unable to explain why the Word of God would praises those in the military as being men & women of good character if they were in service of the devil?

    *] You slandered our Popes & Bishops by accusing them of fashioning Catholic doctrine “just to appease the goverments”.

    *] You’ve come very close to, if not actually committing blasphemy against The Holy Spirit by accusing those in God’s service to be in the devil’s service.
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    777:
    It’s a BIG misunderstanding here!!
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    If we misunderstood, then please explain ALL of it to us.
 
vern humphrey:
The question is, why did you ask?

By saying "You sure they didn’t write that just to appease the goverments and all the secular? you clearly impugn the bishops, the Pope, and the Magisterium.

The Catechism was not written by people who “weren’t Catholic priests!!”

Yet the Catechism says you have a duty, and that our national leaders have a duty to call upon you.

Do you accept the Catechism, including Paragraph 2310?
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Yup
 
vern humphrey:
Then very clearly you must accept that those who serve in the military do so out of Christian duty, and are not of Satan.
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There are no atheist in foxholes…"
William T.Cummings:
Sermons on Bataan, March 1942
 
Here’s a bit more on the subject from Pope John Paul II

EVANGELIUM VITAE
“…legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State. Unfortunately, it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose actions brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason.”
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And the Council of Trent ( on Just Killing)
Killing In A Just War
In like manner, the soldier is guiltless who, actuated not by motives of ambition or cruelty, but by a pure desire of serving the interests of his country, takes away the life of an enemy in a just war.
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Furthermore, there are on record instances of carnage executed by the special command of God. The sons of Levi, who put to death so many thousands in one day, were guilty of no sin; when the slaughter had ceased, they were addressed by Moses in these words: You have consecrated your hands this day to the Lord.
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Sir Knight:
Let’s see …

  • *]You slandered millions of service men & women, both living & dead by accusing them of being in Satan’s …
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  • I do not agree with what 777 is saying but I did fight for over 20 years defending his right to say it. Just one question.

    777 did you ever serve?
 
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dhgray:
We, the US Militay, more times than not put ourselves in harms way to reduce the number of inocent casualties. There are reports of soldires and Marines who have thrown themselves on a live gernade to save inocent lives. Too bad the enemy doesn’t feel the same way. They would kill 100 inocent lives to get one American (military or civilian).
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That still doesn’t make the deaths of innocent civilians okay -nor does it change the fact that it still happens. And I’ve heard Iraq vets say that they knowingly kill civilians (i.e., bombing a building housing a sniper and a number of innocent civilians - they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time). Nor is every soldier the John Wayne type you mention - a fact that has actually made it to the press. War is simply a bad thing. IMO, this war in particular is very unjust (I’m sure you are familiar with the reasons why many of us feel this way so I’ll avoid the issue here). How many is too many for you? 1? 1,000? Perhaps we should go back to the old type of warfare - get all the troops on both sides, line them up and let them kill each other. Leave the civilians and the infrastructure they need to survive out of it.

I’d like to see our troops safe at home with their families. I don’t think it is patriotic for them to have to die in what I and millions of others feel is an unjust war. Yet, I get accused of not supporting our troops. The folks who think it’s a great idea to send them to die in for any cause the Admin. deems appropriate, regardless of its true nature, are the ones who do the supporting. Seems backwards to me.
 
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koda:
I’d like to see our troops safe at home with their families. I don’t think it is patriotic for them to have to die in what I and millions of others feel is an unjust war. Yet, I get accused of not supporting our troops.
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That’s because many of us have been there before – we know, by bitter personal experience what a sham it is to say “I oppose the war but support the troops.”
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koda:
The folks who think it’s a great idea to send them to die in for any cause the Admin. deems appropriate, regardless of its true nature, are the ones who do the supporting. Seems backwards to me.
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That’s because “The folks who think it’s a great idea to send them to die in for any cause the Admin. deems appropriate, regardless of its true nature” exist only in your imagination.
 
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dhgray:
I do not agree with what 777 is saying but I did fight for over 20 years defending his right to say it. Just one question.

777 did you ever serve?
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Me serve in the military? No, all joking aside, i never did. Not for all my 41 years of my life, since I was born in '64.
 
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